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Active shooter situation reported in Christchurch, New Zealand

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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

I was actually looking at some bible verses the other day and this isn't really anything that would be out of place in the bible:

1 Corinthians 11:  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man,   For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Timothy 3: But I (Apostle Paul) suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve

And there is a lot more about modesty, a woman's place in the home etc.. Women are not considered equal to man but one step below man as man are one step below God.

 

This is why you never play the 'which religion is better' game.  All 3 of the Abrahamic religions have passages of violence, hate, subjugation, intolerance, war, contradictions, etc...

Especially with people that have no interest in recognizing it.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

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HylianSwordsman said:
o_O.Q said:

"I could say the similar things about conservative Christians and their regressive views on women, but I don't. For a long time, the country was majority conservative Christian, only recently have they lost enough ground to progressive Christianity and atheism"

good so why are you in favour of islam's growing influence?

I'm not.

progressive christianity? that should be interesting, explain that one

Episcopalian and the like. The ones that allow gay marriage, encourage immigration and try to house refugees.

"I never at any point said they should leave the country or that we should kill them"

and you think this is candace owen's intent? in the tweet you quoted did she imply that muslims should be killed or forced to leave the country?

I can't prove it was her intent, no. I think, as you do, that she wants it not to spread, and that the tweet seemed to imply that somehow an army would somehow deal with the problem of falling birth rates, and thereby the spread of Islam.

"It's the regressive views that need to be combated in whatever form they take, not the people that hold them."

regressive views on women are integral to many religions and islam is definitely one of them in my opinion

no one is saying that these people are a problem, the stated problem is their ideology

Nah, they're not integral. A lot of the regressive views are cultural, not ideological. Most religions boil down to "Don't be a dick."

" Remember when Clinton called a whole bunch of people "deplorable"?"

i'm not a republican or a conservative so i don't see why you would look for a specific example you think i agree with and no if its her opinion that certain people are deplorable then its good that she said it if she can justify her argument

 Oh don't pretend you don't remember that. It was all over the news. Long story short, it was based on them supporting Trump, with the suggestion that literally half of his supporters were white supremacists. She didn't outright say it, but it was implied. Kind of like Candace's thing, implying that the presence of Muslims is bad without outright saying so. 

we would both agree that rapists are deplorable right? why?

Pfft. This is either a rhetorical question, or a waste of time to discuss.

"or treat them like their very presence might be a problem like in Candace's case."

as i've said previously,, if those people have regressive views on women, I can understand why candace as a woman would be concerned about their influence growing... i suppose what is interesting is that you don't think her concern is justified

As I've said previously, the people aren't the problem, but she's making them the problem rather than their values, which is what should actually be attacked.

" it's how she expresses it and what her solutions are for dealing with it."

as i've said before if you aren't able to realise that she wasn't being literally when she said an army should be built then you need to step away from the internet for a bit

You keep focusing on me and what I think. I only brought any of this up because the shooter seems to think that. He DEFINITELY should step away from the internet.

ok lets follow this thread of though, are you seriously telling me that candace thinks that the military of france is going to take strategic advice from a 30 year old political commentator? sounds absolutely ridiculous right? so why are you pretending that this is the case?

Nope. Not pretending it either.

" You said it yourself, it doesn't make sense. Armies don't fix birth rates."

exactly she said it tongue in cheek, when you have conversations with people are you always this oblivious to communication that's not overt? i'd hope not

It's a short little tweet, people try to say more with the few characters they have, and people take a lot from them all the time. Never said I did, but the shooter did. I didn't have the conversation, like I said, I just found her when I googled her to help you.

"He got his conclusion from Candace's statement"

the man that assaulted the woman was inspired to do so by seeing the woman... you see how that works?

you aren't looking at the fact that the person is crazy and the sole blame for their actions lies on them, instead you have to look for someone else to drag into it even though you cannot logically link candace's statements to the crime

No I agree with you. Always did. Candace isn't at fault.

"Well that's because it's not the demographics that are the issue. It's the values system. "

value systems increase or decrease proportionally with the populations that they live in

Not if you can change the population's mind.

" They teach women to expect a man to be rich and able to completely provide for them, and to date based on that, instead of love. "

the preference of women for men who hold more resources is almost universal and is seen across just about every value system and its almost universal in the animal kingdom as well... so you're barking up the wrong tree there

You obviously aren't aware how much of a problem it is in Japan.

"there have to be overarching values that we cherish across all the cultures. Those overarching values often inform the future direction of the multiple cultures living within the society. So for America, we value life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness."

islam as a religion is not compatible with liberty and the pursuit of happiness for women, so again where are you going with this? ( i could be wrong on the views of islam on women but from eveerything i've experienced i don't think so )

Religion changes. It isn't just the fundamentalist interpretation of its holy book. You can interpret it multiple ways. Call such people hypocrites if you like. There are movements within Islam towards respect for women and respect for other religions. Such movements made great strides in Christianity, and we're starting to see it happen with Islam. Give it time. Religion is alive in the people that follow it. It isn't ever just a holy book.

"They maintained their cultural identity, but evolved towards the greater American culture of liberty and justice for all, with all of us equal"

you are contradicting yourself, how can a cultural identify partially based on suppressing women result in everyone being equal?

Nope. We don't always live up to our values perfectly, but we value them, that's why they're called values. We work towards them, no one perfectly lives up to their values.

"It's the power of our democracy. "

american is not a democracy and you better pray it never becomes that

Lol, I definitely want it to become more democratic. I recognize it's not a direct democracy, but I would love for it to be.

"My initial quoting of that tweet was because you asked for an example of Candace Owens talking about Muslims"

you were supposed to provide an example of rhetoric that could logically be used as motivation for this shooting

Ah sorry, I missed the "logically" part. Still, the shooter is crazed, so he doesn't need a logical connection, just a way to make absurd, illogical leaps to what he wants to do. Like I said, though, I don't blame Candace. I think you're mistaking me for someone else.

 

"I can't prove it was her intent"

good we could end the discussion right there

 

"Nah, they're not integral."

in the bible god created man first and created women by taking a part of that man and god did so only to give man a companion,, without going further i'd say right there that this kind of sets the tone for what we see later on

 

" Oh don't pretend you don't remember that. It was all over the news."

which i did not imply, to repeat if she can substantiate her statements she should say whatever she wants

 

"As I've said previously, the people aren't the problem"

as i've said values do not exist and do not impact the world outside of when they are hosted by people

 

"she's making them the problem rather than their values, which is what should actually be attacked."

here's a quick thought experiment, lets say we had a man saying all pigeons should be shot because he had a deep seated fear of pigeons and people attacked him for those beliefs... so people grab him and force him to see a psychologist and this addresses that fear so people don't attack him anymore...

do you see what has happened here? i'll just state that i don't think muslims should be attacked this just an example

 

"I only brought any of this up because the shooter seems to think that. He DEFINITELY should step away from the internet."

no he should be hung from the neck until dead in my opinion, he killed tens of people

 

"You obviously aren't aware how much of a problem it is in Japan."

i think its overblown because people have this idea that men have to serve society and the men there appear to be rebuffing that

but yeah japan is probably fucked

the point i'm making is that your idea that women selecting for men with greater resources is culturally inspired is not in sync with reality, this is partially why the idea of absolute equality between the sexes is a joke as we will continue to see

 

"There are movements within Islam towards respect for women and respect for other religions."

fair enough, that's good

 

"Lol, I definitely want it to become more democratic. I recognize it's not a direct democracy, but I would love for it to be."

ok lets say it does and the majority of the population decide chrisitianity must be abolished because of its problematic elements... you'd just be ok with that?

people don't really understand what democracy breeds and its just funny to see how the media just keeps beating it into people's heads without those people taking the time to really analyse what is being suggested

 

" Like I said, though, I don't blame Candace."

if you don't think she holds any responsibility how did we get here?



My pronouns are REX and REY

sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

I was actually looking at some bible verses the other day and this isn't really anything that would be out of place in the bible:

1 Corinthians 11:  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man,   For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Timothy 3: But I (Apostle Paul) suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve

And there is a lot more about modesty, a woman's place in the home etc.. Women are not considered equal to man but one step below man as man are one step below God.

 

ah i see, you think because you've seen me attacking atheists over how illogical many of them are becoming that i must be christian, but i'm not christian

i believe not necessarily in equality but that everyone should be free to do anything they want once they do not infringe on the freedom of others

i would have thought this is why people were running from religions and into atheism but imagine my shock and horror after studying the atheist movement and seeing the same desire for repression of individual liberty but in a different and in some ways more irrational coat of paint

 

its just funny to me that i'm seeing people attacking the very idea of putting things into categories at all, but they don't realise thatits an automatic thing we do to rationalise our environment

this is a great example of that, you were thinking, well she's not A so she must be B lol



My pronouns are REX and REY

SpokenTruth said:
sundin13 said:

I was actually looking at some bible verses the other day and this isn't really anything that would be out of place in the bible:

1 Corinthians 11:  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man,   For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Timothy 3: But I (Apostle Paul) suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve

And there is a lot more about modesty, a woman's place in the home etc.. Women are not considered equal to man but one step below man as man are one step below God.

 

This is why you never play the 'which religion is better' game.  All 3 of the Abrahamic religions have passages of violence, hate, subjugation, intolerance, war, contradictions, etc...

Especially with people that have no interest in recognizing it.

 

 

"This is why you never play the 'which religion is better' game."

its good then that i didn't do so lol



My pronouns are REX and REY

o_O.Q said:
Eagle367 said:

I didn't even mention the Qur'an but you have to know the entire context of things in the Qur'an, not the isolated verses you pull out. Each verse has a history and a story behind it. The words in Arabic mean various things and people write huge articles per verse to describe everything after attaining years of knowledge about the Qur'an, Arabic, islamic history and hadith that are valid and provide more meat to the sketch;Eton of the verse.

Regarding equal but not the same, do men have periods? Do men breast feed? Do women have a penis and balls? Are men biologically stronger or women? Is the physiology, anatomy and psychology of men and women the same? The equal but different thing applies to all humans by the way, not just between men and women. 

Going back to the verses of the Qur'an;an, what you understand from it and what it is are 2 very different things. People with hate in their hearts look for hate everywhere and that's what terrorist scum do. People with malice in their hearts look for malice. That's why scholars trained for years to look at things analytically and not emotionally are valued and should be valued and should be listened to. 

"I didn't even mention the Qur'an but you have to know the entire context of things in the Qur'an, not the isolated verses you pull out."

fair enough, but come on you have to admit that this is problematic

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).

Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women.

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]" 

Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"

Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."

etc etc etc

 

"Regarding equal but not the same, do men have periods? Do men breast feed? Do women have a penis and balls? Are men biologically stronger or women? Is the physiology, anatomy and psychology of men and women the same?"

the law in many western countries disregards all of that, since it is now law that a man at any point can identify as a woman and a woman at anytime can identify as a man

to people on the vanguard of the progressive movement your comments were highly transphobic

Regarding the Qur'anic verses, as I 've said before you can't pick  verses in isolation. There is an early verse in the Qur'an forbidding drinking while praying and  a later verse banning drinking altogtalto and a reason why It is made to be so. So at one point in early Islam, Muslims were allowed to drink except in prayer. Now they are not but if you specifically look for the earlier verse, isolate it and present it to me saying see Muslims can drink, that would be misleading. That is why there is fiqh and jurisprudence in Islam to discuss and solve issues regarding the law through knowledge and interpretation of the Qur'an and the sahih hadith and what are the sahih hadith. I'm sadlt no expert but I can consult one and get back to you regarding those verses at a later time. You are also reading an interpretation aka a translation of the Qur'an, not the actual book which is in Arabic and translations can change meanings. So blanket quoting the Qur'an is as bad as people saying context doesn't matter like in the case of comedians like the one from Britain who was punished. 

 

And no disrespect to the trans community, but when I say man or woman regarding law in Islam, I'm talking sex not gender. So if you have all the organs of a female human, you are a woman and if you have all the organs of a male human, you are a woman. If you have a sex change operation, you're the opposite sex now. Unlike the discussion on gender, sex is rigid, unchanging and has only 3 options. It is physically visible to anyone and immediately obvious. Just as your doctor will not look at your gender but your sex with regards to illnesses specific to your sex, I'm talking about men and women in that manner. I would hope no one is iffendof by biology.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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SpokenTruth said:
sundin13 said:

I was actually looking at some bible verses the other day and this isn't really anything that would be out of place in the bible:

1 Corinthians 11:  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man,   For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Timothy 3: But I (Apostle Paul) suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve

And there is a lot more about modesty, a woman's place in the home etc.. Women are not considered equal to man but one step below man as man are one step below God.

 

This is why you never play the 'which religion is better' game.  All 3 of the Abrahamic religions have passages of violence, hate, subjugation, intolerance, war, contradictions, etc...

Especially with people that have no interest in recognizing it.

 

And even in the thousands of religions that exist it would be hard to find one that is perfectly peacefull.

We humans are flawed and we did write down flawed religions and this is surely true when you consider that most were conceived in times with more turmoil.



o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

I was actually looking at some bible verses the other day and this isn't really anything that would be out of place in the bible:

1 Corinthians 11:  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man,   For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Timothy 3: But I (Apostle Paul) suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve

And there is a lot more about modesty, a woman's place in the home etc.. Women are not considered equal to man but one step below man as man are one step below God.

 

ah i see, you think because you've seen me attacking atheists over how illogical many of them are becoming that i must be christian, but i'm not christian

i believe not necessarily in equality but that everyone should be free to do anything they want once they do not infringe on the freedom of others

i would have thought this is why people were running from religions and into atheism but imagine my shock and horror after studying the atheist movement and seeing the same desire for repression of individual liberty but in a different and in some ways more irrational coat of paint

 

its just funny to me that i'm seeing people attacking the very idea of putting things into categories at all, but they don't realise thatits an automatic thing we do to rationalise our environment

this is a great example of that, you were thinking, well she's not A so she must be B lol

Didn't I tell you to stop making assumptions? I never stated nor assumed that you were a Christian, nor have I seen you attacking atheists.

My post says what it says. Nothing more.



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

ah i see, you think because you've seen me attacking atheists over how illogical many of them are becoming that i must be christian, but i'm not christian

i believe not necessarily in equality but that everyone should be free to do anything they want once they do not infringe on the freedom of others

i would have thought this is why people were running from religions and into atheism but imagine my shock and horror after studying the atheist movement and seeing the same desire for repression of individual liberty but in a different and in some ways more irrational coat of paint

 

its just funny to me that i'm seeing people attacking the very idea of putting things into categories at all, but they don't realise thatits an automatic thing we do to rationalise our environment

this is a great example of that, you were thinking, well she's not A so she must be B lol

Didn't I tell you to stop making assumptions? I never stated nor assumed that you were a Christian, nor have I seen you attacking atheists.

My post says what it says. Nothing more.

so why did you bring up christianity? it was completely irrelevant

so you just decided on a whim to post that for no reason?

and why does spokentruth believe you made that post in response to me claiming christianity is superior?



My pronouns are REX and REY

o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

Didn't I tell you to stop making assumptions? I never stated nor assumed that you were a Christian, nor have I seen you attacking atheists.

My post says what it says. Nothing more.

so why did you bring up christianity? it was completely irrelevant

so you just decided on a whim to post that for no reason?

and why does spokentruth believe you made that post in response to me claiming christianity is superior?

I honestly don't know why SpokenTruth does what he does. I am not his PR agent. Ask him.

As for why I brought it up, I felt that it was relevant to discuss how the things you are speaking of are relatively prevalent across religions more common in the West. It was not an attack on you, it was merely an observation.



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

so why did you bring up christianity? it was completely irrelevant

so you just decided on a whim to post that for no reason?

and why does spokentruth believe you made that post in response to me claiming christianity is superior?

I honestly don't know why SpokenTruth does what he does. I am not his PR agent. Ask him.

As for why I brought it up, I felt that it was relevant to discuss how the things you are speaking of are relatively prevalent across religions more common in the West. It was not an attack on you, it was merely an observation.

" I felt that it was relevant to discuss how the things you are speaking of are relatively prevalent across religions more common in the West."

women are silenced and not allowed to be teachers in churches in the West? 

here is a list of female pastored churches

https://jeremiahgibbs.com/directory-women-female-pastored-churches/

 

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man,   For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

women are forced to cover their heads in western churches? compare that to the hijab

 

"it was relevant to discuss how the things you are speaking of are relatively prevalent across religions more common in the West."

again i was arguing for why i can understand candace being concerned with the growing influence of islam, am i to understand that you are in support of the growing influence of islam since you seem to be disagreeing with me?



My pronouns are REX and REY