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The Moderator Thread

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AbbathTheGrim said:
kirby007 said:

Now carl i dont wanna be a dick, but actually being a dick or being percieved as a dick are two different stories

And that's a tricky thing, I concede.

And it is specially tricky when it comes to religion.

The way that I have seen this being tackled in other places is by separating the religion from the believers. You can criticize the claims of a religion, the contents of scriptures but not refer to believers and call them names.

But of course, the Mod Team decides the policies here and I don't pretend to come here to change policies, I am just trying to find a clarification.

Also, the religion thing is specially tricky given the fact that religion finds a wide array of things as offensive, and so that's a bottomless hole that the protection of religious sentiments leads everything down to.

What intellectual discussion were you trying to have on the merits and history of religion? What in-depth critique of the content of scripture were you trying to convey?

"Mr. Imaginary" is mockery. What was with the necessity of being edgy and hostile?



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morenoingrato said:
AbbathTheGrim said:

And that's a tricky thing, I concede.

And it is specially tricky when it comes to religion.

The way that I have seen this being tackled in other places is by separating the religion from the believers. You can criticize the claims of a religion, the contents of scriptures but not refer to believers and call them names.

But of course, the Mod Team decides the policies here and I don't pretend to come here to change policies, I am just trying to find a clarification.

Also, the religion thing is specially tricky given the fact that religion finds a wide array of things as offensive, and so that's a bottomless hole that the protection of religious sentiments leads everything down to.

What intellectual discussion were you trying to have on the merits and history of religion? What in-depth critique of the content of scripture were you trying to convey?

"Mr. Imaginary" is mockery. What was with the necessity of being edgy and hostile?

The thread was about Easter and there I wrote a reminder of the history of Easter and how is a pagan holiday.

Among the question that I asked the Mod Team was whether an Athesit here can start a conversation about the vercaity of the claims of religious scripture or whether it will be deemed "inflammatory". They may answer and I will know their stance.

All ideas come from creative imagination and then turn into emerging truths when they survive evidence based research and falsification. Some ideas, as is the idea of a god, remain in imagination.



Nintendo is selling their IPs to Microsoft and this is true because:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=221391&page=1

AbbathTheGrim said:
kirby007 said:

Now carl i dont wanna be a dick, but actually being a dick or being percieved as a dick are two different stories

Also, the religion thing is specially tricky given the fact that religion finds a wide array of things as offensive, and so that's a bottomless hole that the protection of religious sentiments leads everything down to.

Indeed. That's where a case-by-case basis is particular with this, rather than any given rule (which is general). I always say if ever in doubt, ask a moderator (or even a user ~ we have a lot of knowledgeable people here that could have advised for/against posting the pic).



                                                                                                                                            

AbbathTheGrim said:

Okay so I'm not replying to a specific post of yours in general, but to the whole situation... please bare in mind as you read this that I'm coming into this with very little prior knowledge of the "situation", all I've seen is the warning you were given and your posts in here.

Right, so... first of all you can drop the victim act, there is no way you wanted an actual discussion, otherwise you'd have started one and not used a meme picture to insult the beliefs of a whole religion, you even used the term "Mr. Imaginary", to me the post, and even your follow up posts in here, seem like you were out to bait from the start, but as soon as you were given the warning you came out crying and acting like you've been victimised.

Secondly, you were given a warning, a light one at that, which reads;
"Hello there. You're receiving a warning for your post in the happy easter thread. Please do not post pictures or things that degrades another religion, it only sparks hostility and potential fights. Thank you."

Now, to me, that reads as a polite reminder as to not post anything that could cause trouble (Something you did), yet you're acting as if she's saying you're not welcome on the forums, or neither are Atheists, which is downright ridiculous when you consider just how many of us are on the forums in the first place.

Do I believe in a god or follow any religion? Nope, I'm an atheist and strongly believe there is no god, but I'm not going to go out of my way and, to put it frank, be a dick by posting a picture mocking Christians for believing in "Mr. Imaginary"... and do you know why I'm not going to do that? Because it's completely uncalled for, people are free to believe what they like, and in a case such as religion you can't exactly tell someone they're wrong since, just as there is no proof there is a god, there is also no proof that there ISN'T a god.

Anyway, I was going off-track with that last part, so to return to the issue; I back the decision Amy made to give you a warning, as I too (along with other mods and members it'd seem) believe you made your post with the sole intention of trolling/baiting/whatever rather than instigating an intelligent discussion on the topic.

... And that's my piece.



CGI-Quality said:
AbbathTheGrim said:

Also, the religion thing is specially tricky given the fact that religion finds a wide array of things as offensive, and so that's a bottomless hole that the protection of religious sentiments leads everything down to.

Indeed. That's where a case-by-case basis is particular with this, rather than any given rule (which is general). I always say if ever in doubt, ask a moderator (or even a user ~ we have a lot of knowledgeable people here that could have advised for/against posting the pic).

But still I don't know what in specific I should be avoiding when I discuss religion and criticize religion in order to avoid a warning. It feels like there is a blasphemy law here were I have to treat the idea of a god and normalize this being as real and as if I must be careful not to insult his sentiments, which goes directly against the worldview of Atheist.

My take away from those pictures is that pictures kind of reverberate what would otherwise be accepted in written form.

Or perhaps I cannot use comedy when I criticize religion?

Or perhaps I cannot start a conversation about how the idea of a god is divorced from reality? And can only "react" if someone starts a conversation about religion?

Which picture are you referring to? Maybe if you tell me which picture is the one that landed me the warning I could have an idea of what will get me a warning here in VGChartz.

I am afraid that if I ask some of the people here and their possible stance of what is acceptable they will even say: "Don't even say that god is not real because that will offend people." I would like how much Atheist expressing in this forum is at odds with the policy of not offending religion.

If I get a straight answer of what in those pictures will land me a warning I can know for sure what is not acceptable and then avoid it or perhaps come to the realization that I can't function and post here with these rules and should maybe leave for both my sake and the vision and direction of the website.



Nintendo is selling their IPs to Microsoft and this is true because:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=221391&page=1

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Bristow9091 said:

AbbathTheGrim said:

Okay so I'm not replying to a specific post of yours in general, but to the whole situation... please bare in mind as you read this that I'm coming into this with very little prior knowledge of the "situation", all I've seen is the warning you were given and your posts in here.

1) Right, so... first of all you can drop the victim act, there is no way you wanted an actual discussion, otherwise you'd have started one and not used a meme picture to insult the beliefs of a whole religion, you even used the term "Mr. Imaginary", to me the post, and even your follow up posts in here, seem like you were out to bait from the start, but as soon as you were given the warning you came out crying and acting like you've been victimised.

2) Secondly, you were given a warning, a light one at that, which reads;
"Hello there. You're receiving a warning for your post in the happy easter thread. Please do not post pictures or things that degrades another religion, it only sparks hostility and potential fights. Thank you."

3) Now, to me, that reads as a polite reminder as to not post anything that could cause trouble (Something you did), yet you're acting as if she's saying you're not welcome on the forums, or neither are Atheists, which is downright ridiculous when you consider just how many of us are on the forums in the first place.

4) Do I believe in a god or follow any religion? Nope, I'm an atheist and strongly believe there is no god, but I'm not going to go out of my way and, to put it frank, be a dick by posting a picture mocking Christians for believing in "Mr. Imaginary"... and do you know why I'm not going to do that? Because it's completely uncalled for, people are free to believe what they like, and in a case such as religion you can't exactly tell someone they're wrong since, just as there is no proof there is a god, there is also no proof that there ISN'T a god.

5) Anyway, I was going off-track with that last part, so to return to the issue; I back the decision Amy made to give you a warning, as I too (along with other mods and members it'd seem) believe you made your post with the sole intention of trolling/baiting/whatever rather than instigating an intelligent discussion on the topic.

... And that's my piece.

1) I am not pretending to be a victim, I am asking how much discussion I can start and how I can I approach them without getting a warning. I don't doubt that there are Atheist here, what I doubt is how much you can talk and discuss about it without getting a warning.

2) What is baiting? Saying that a god is not real? Is that baiting? Saying that Christian holiday has a pagan origin? Is that baiting? Seems like any comment, content and post made against the idea of a god or criticizing religion is bait.

Silence is what you propose? That Atheist cannot talk about religion or the idea of god from an Atheist perspective?

3) From what I gather and what call "bait", any discussion of religion from the Atheist perspective will be regarded as inflammatory.

4) People are free to believe in what they want and so are they free to criticize those beliefs back.

The burden of proof is on the side that makes the claim that something is true and the claim that this idea of a god is true is out there and is being normalized.

As long as there is zero anything to falsify for the existence of a god, the idea of a god, as the same level of relevancy, is taken with equal seriousness and belongs in the same place to any other unproven idea that has no place in the descriptive nature of reality. As soon as believers bring something that can be replicated and falsified then this idea of a god will be part of the testable contents of reality. You went off-track and so I followed. I wasn't going to let that slide.

Religion can be wrong and a lot of religious claims and practices are not only wrong but are way more offensive than anything I will ever post about believers.

5) If my post was off-topic, even though it was about Easter and those pictures are about Easter, I would understand, but the warning would then be about "Don't go off-topic".



Nintendo is selling their IPs to Microsoft and this is true because:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=221391&page=1

AbbathTheGrim said:
Bristow9091 said:

Okay so I'm not replying to a specific post of yours in general, but to the whole situation... please bare in mind as you read this that I'm coming into this with very little prior knowledge of the "situation", all I've seen is the warning you were given and your posts in here.

1) Right, so... first of all you can drop the victim act, there is no way you wanted an actual discussion, otherwise you'd have started one and not used a meme picture to insult the beliefs of a whole religion, you even used the term "Mr. Imaginary", to me the post, and even your follow up posts in here, seem like you were out to bait from the start, but as soon as you were given the warning you came out crying and acting like you've been victimised.

2) Secondly, you were given a warning, a light one at that, which reads;
"Hello there. You're receiving a warning for your post in the happy easter thread. Please do not post pictures or things that degrades another religion, it only sparks hostility and potential fights. Thank you."

3) Now, to me, that reads as a polite reminder as to not post anything that could cause trouble (Something you did), yet you're acting as if she's saying you're not welcome on the forums, or neither are Atheists, which is downright ridiculous when you consider just how many of us are on the forums in the first place.

4) Do I believe in a god or follow any religion? Nope, I'm an atheist and strongly believe there is no god, but I'm not going to go out of my way and, to put it frank, be a dick by posting a picture mocking Christians for believing in "Mr. Imaginary"... and do you know why I'm not going to do that? Because it's completely uncalled for, people are free to believe what they like, and in a case such as religion you can't exactly tell someone they're wrong since, just as there is no proof there is a god, there is also no proof that there ISN'T a god.

5) Anyway, I was going off-track with that last part, so to return to the issue; I back the decision Amy made to give you a warning, as I too (along with other mods and members it'd seem) believe you made your post with the sole intention of trolling/baiting/whatever rather than instigating an intelligent discussion on the topic.

... And that's my piece.

1) I am not pretending to be a victim, I am asking how much discussion I can start and how I can I approach them without getting a warning. I don't doubt that there are Atheist here, what I doubt is how much you can talk and discuss about it without getting a warning.

2) What is baiting? Saying that a god is not real? Is that baiting? Saying that Christian holiday has a pagan origin? Is that baiting? Seems like any comment, content and post made against the idea of a god or criticizing religion is bait.

Silence is what you propose? That Atheist cannot talk about religion or the idea of god from an Atheist perspective?

3) From what I gather and what call "bait", any discussion of religion from the Atheist perspective will be regarded as inflammatory.

4) People are free to believe in what they want and so are they free to criticize those beliefs back.

The burden of proof is on the side that makes the claim that something is true and the claim that this idea of a god is true is out there and is being normalized.

As long as there is zero anything to falsify for the existence of a god, the idea of a god, as the same level of relevancy, is taken with equal seriousness and belongs in the same place to any other unproven idea that has no place in the descriptive nature of reality. As soon as believers bring something that can be replicated and falsified then this idea of a god will be part of the testable contents of reality. You went off-track and so I followed. I wasn't going to let that slide.

Religion can be wrong and a lot of religious claims and practices are not only wrong but are way more offensive than anything I will ever post about believers.

5) If my post was off-topic, even though it was about Easter and those pictures are about Easter, I would understand, but the warning would then be about "Don't go off-topic".

You're claiming to not be able to have an opinion on religion simply because you're an Athiest. That is not, nor has it ever been true. Anyone is free to discuss religion as long as they do so in a civil manner and without attempting to belittle people of other or no faith, either through hurtful words or imagery. The pictures you posted were clearly put there as bait for Christians. You claim you wanted an actual discussion, yet you didn't exactly lead with anything, and before you ask; No, posting two images, one of which is meant to mock a religion, is not how to start a discussion.

You say the burden of proof is on the side that makes the claim... well, yes, you're right, and the proof is in the pictures you've posted. I'm sorry but if you can't see how the second picture could upset Christians, but everyone else can, then that problem lies with YOU. You've now been told multiple times why it isn't acceptable, yet you're still here trying to argue that mocking other people should be.

If you're upset that our rules SHOULD allow you to mock other users based on their beliefs (Nowhere in that one post in that thread did you want an actual discussion) then maybe you should take your own over-dramatic dribble advice and "leave for both my sake and the vision and direction of the website." But honestly I don't see why you're dragging this further than it had to go, it was a simple reminder via warning not to post images that might offend people, then you played the victim card, then you got all dramatic about maybe leaving... just do whatever, but regardless of your decision, what you posted in that thread deserved a warning, and you know it.



AbbathTheGrim said:
CGI-Quality said:

Indeed. That's where a case-by-case basis is particular with this, rather than any given rule (which is general). I always say if ever in doubt, ask a moderator (or even a user ~ we have a lot of knowledgeable people here that could have advised for/against posting the pic).

But still I don't know what in specific I should be avoiding when I discuss religion and criticize religion in order to avoid a warning. It feels like there is a blasphemy law here were I have to treat the idea of a god and normalize this being as real and as if I must be careful not to insult his sentiments, which goes directly against the worldview of Atheist.

My take away from those pictures is that pictures kind of reverberate what would otherwise be accepted in written form.

Or perhaps I cannot use comedy when I criticize religion?

Or perhaps I cannot start a conversation about how the idea of a god is divorced from reality? And can only "react" if someone starts a conversation about religion?

Which picture are you referring to? Maybe if you tell me which picture is the one that landed me the warning I could have an idea of what will get me a warning here in VGChartz.

I am afraid that if I ask some of the people here and their possible stance of what is acceptable they will even say: "Don't even say that god is not real because that will offend people." I would like how much Atheist expressing in this forum is at odds with the policy of not offending religion.

If I get a straight answer of what in those pictures will land me a warning I can know for sure what is not acceptable and then avoid it or perhaps come to the realization that I can't function and post here with these rules and should maybe leave for both my sake and the vision and direction of the website.

Well, know that being an Atheist isn't against the rules of the forum. You are free to practice whatever it is you believe in (or don't believe in). All we ask is that you keep things civil and avoid personal attacks (I'm not accusing you of anything like this by the way, it's just a 'the more you know' sort of thing). Now, to the pics, we'll start with this one: 

Perhaps you could better explain here what you were after when posting it. Is it just to expose alleged Christian fallacies? Poke fun at Easter? At God? I'm just trying to understand. There was obviously some offense taken by that, and then...

So, elaborate a bit so people can try to understand, especially if it is a misunderstanding.



                                                                                                                                            

Bristow9091 said:

1) You're claiming to not be able to have an opinion on religion simply because you're an Athiest. That is not, nor has it ever been true. Anyone is free to discuss religion as long as they do so in a civil manner and without attempting to belittle people of other or no faith, either through hurtful words or imagery. The pictures you posted were clearly put there as bait for Christians. You claim you wanted an actual discussion, yet you didn't exactly lead with anything, and before you ask; No, posting two images, one of which is meant to mock a religion, is not how to start a discussion.

2) You say the burden of proof is on the side that makes the claim... well, yes, you're right, and the proof is in the pictures you've posted. I'm sorry but if you can't see how the second picture could upset Christians, but everyone else can, then that problem lies with YOU. You've now been told multiple times why it isn't acceptable, yet you're still here trying to argue that mocking other people should be.

3) If you're upset that our rules SHOULD allow you to mock other users based on their beliefs (Nowhere in that one post in that thread did you want an actual discussion) then maybe you should take your own over-dramatic dribble advice and "leave for both my sake and the vision and direction of the website." But honestly I don't see why you're dragging this further than it had to go, it was a simple reminder via warning not to post images that might offend people, then you played the victim card, then you got all dramatic about maybe leaving... just do whatever, but regardless of your decision, what you posted in that thread deserved a warning, and you know it.

1) I recognize that there are Atheist here and that they can exist. But I don't know to what extent we can talk about religion and the idea of a god without getting a warning.

Atheist are not victims here, honest discussions about religion, god, and the nature of reality from the perspective of Atheists may be, I don't know yet, I am here trying to figure this out.

The picture says: This holiday has a pagan origin.

The second picture says: The crucifixion is clearly not a bout a bunny laying eggs.

I disagree, I think that pictures can start a discussion, the problem is that not all arguments allow for a rebuttal. As is pointing out the pagan origin of Easter which a lot of people don't know.

2) Something tells me there is more space open for discussion with CGI regarding your second paragraph.

3) Erm, I know that the website will be fine without me. It has been for all those months of inaction I've had since I logged here. I guess I can read those instances I've written that I would leave this website depending on the policies regarding tackling religion and god from the Atheist perspective as dramatic, but my intention was not to appear a drama queen lol but to let you guys know how important is for me to be free to talk about the existence of the alleged being god when discussion about religion pop up.

Nope, I honestly don't know what part of those pictures is unacceptable for the Mod Team and tat is why I am here. Thankfully CGI is lending a hand. Whatever the Mod Team says goes, goes, I accept and don't pretend to be making any policies here. I just want to know what I must evade or know what I can't evade and know if I either can put myself in line with the vision of the website or realize that VGChartz isn't for me.

CGI-Quality said:

Well, know that being an Atheist isn't against the rules of the forum. You are free to practice whatever it is you believe in (or don't believe in). All we ask is that you keep things civil and avoid personal attacks (I'm not accusing you of anything like this by the way, it's just a 'the more you know' sort of thing). Now, to the pics, we'll start with this one: 

Perhaps you could better explain here what you were after when posting it. Is it just to expose alleged Christian fallacies? Poke fun at Easter? At God? I'm just trying to understand. There was obviously some offense taken by that, and then...

So, elaborate a bit so people can try to understand, especially if it is a misunderstanding.

Thanks CGI, this is exactly what I have been asking for. Thanks for trying to break those pictures down so that we can discuss their meaning.

I know that it is ok to be Atheist in here, I know there are other Atheist here, but I don't know the extent and the manner in which we can talk about it and tackle claims about god and religion from the perspective of Atheists.

- First picture:

1) The thread was talking about Easter so I inserted the reminder that Easter has a pagan origin. I celebrate Xmas, so origins are no problem for me or should for anyone or would I claim there is a problem with Easter, beyond those who refuse to see it's pagan origin. I was doing a drop of information as I found that inserting this fact would let people who don't know about the pagan origin of Easter know about it. Specially when there is a refusal in some to recognize the influence from other cultures and traditions in this case in Christianity.

I could understand if the picture is borderline off-topic, and pretty much know that what you mods say goes, but I would make a case it belongs to a thread about Easter. lol

Is calling a deity Mr. Imaginary offensive? How can I say "god is not real but the product of creative imagination" without being offensive? It's like a lose lose situation when you discuss religion and god from an Atheist perspective. I understand that the Atheist position is confrontational, but how can there be no confrontation in competing ideas?

If you tell me that I can't call god "Mr. Imaginary" then I think that would be something concrete I can remind myself not to do. But I really don't know how I can say that the idea of a god has no place in reality and is the invention of human imagination without sounding offensive.

-  Second picture:

1) There is absolutely no such quote in the bible about Jesus talking about a bunny laying eggs. lol That meme is to accentuate how the Easter tradition came from something else and makes kind of makes it obvious there is something that doesn't fit lol and to tie with the pagan origin of Eostre and her bunny fellow.

Edited to delete surplus quote boxes.



Nintendo is selling their IPs to Microsoft and this is true because:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=221391&page=1

AbbathTheGrim said:
  CGI-Quality said:

Well, know that being an Atheist isn't against the rules of the forum. You are free to practice whatever it is you believe in (or don't believe in). All we ask is that you keep things civil and avoid personal attacks (I'm not accusing you of anything like this by the way, it's just a 'the more you know' sort of thing). Now, to the pics, we'll start with this one: 

-pic

Perhaps you could better explain here what you were after when posting it. Is it just to expose alleged Christian fallacies? Poke fun at Easter? At God? I'm just trying to understand. There was obviously some offense taken by that, and then...

-pic

So, elaborate a bit so people can try to understand, especially if it is a misunderstanding.

Thanks CGI, this is exactly what I have been asking for. Thanks for trying to break those pictures down so that we can discuss their meaning.

I know that it is ok to be Atheist in here, I know there are other Atheist here, but I don't know the extent and the manner in which we can talk about it and tackle claims about god and religion from the perspective of Atheists.

- First picture:

1) The thread was talking about Easter so I inserted the reminder that Easter has a pagan origin. I celebrate Xmas, so origins are no problem for me or should for anyone or would I claim there is a problem with Easter, beyond those who refuse to see it's pagan origin. I was doing a drop of information as I found that inserting this fact would let people who don't know about the pagan origin of Easter know about it. Specially when there is a refusal in some to recognize the influence from other cultures and traditions in this case in Christianity.

I could understand if the picture is borderline off-topic, and pretty much know that what you mods say goes, but I would make a case it belongs to a thread about Easter. lol

Is calling a deity Mr. Imaginary offensive? How can I say "god is not real but the product of creative imagination" without being offensive? It's like a lose lose situation when you discuss religion and god from an Atheist perspective. I understand that the Atheist position is confrontational, but how can there be no confrontation in competing ideas?

If you tell me that I can't call god "Mr. Imaginary" then I think that would be something concrete I can remind myself not to do. But I really don't know how I can say that the idea of a god has no place in reality and is the invention of human imagination without sounding offensive.

-  Second picture:

1) There is absolutely no such quote in the bible about Jesus talking about a bunny laying eggs. lol That meme is to accentuate how the Easter tradition came from something else and makes kind of makes it obvious there is something that doesn't fit lol and to tie with the pagan origin of Eostre and her bunny fellow.

Edited to delete surplus quote boxes.

You're welcome. :)

Really, like Politics, these things can get tricky. Not always knowing what is offensive and what isn't is certainly a gamble. Still, I appreciate having gotten a better idea of what you were going for now. For example, calling God "Mr Imaginary" is likely to ruffle feathers, but of course, context is key. With a reasonable explanation defending that view, I wouldn't even give it another look for any potential moderation. 

Like I said though, use this thread as a means to bring things like this up if you're unsure. I'll have no issue taking a look (and there are plenty of great users here who'd be good to get advice from if no mods are around)!