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Forums - General Discussion - Transgender or Adhering to Societies Definition of the Opposite Gender.

Ok so apologies as maybe I'm completely ignorant when I say this but I've always wondered why people decide "I'm a man/woman."

Now let's say there's a woman, who likes to dress like a man, speak like a man, take part in activites that are generally associated with males, now this person then decides "I am a man." and that person is now trans and goes through a transition to the other gender.

But aren't they just changing their gender because society tells them they are acting like a man not a woman? Shouldn't they just be comfortable with who they are? A woman who likes things that aren't typically associated with females, that doesn't make them a man.

Or is there another overriding factor other than societal norms that come into play when someone decides they are male not female or vice versa. Otherwise to me it just seems like changing because of societal pressures rather than being your "true self" as your true self is no doubt what you are born as?

 



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That's actually a good point. The rigid social construct of gender is the main reason why one would think they do not belong in their born gender. If we hadn't such strongly defined gender roles I assume less people would feel uncomfortable with their own gender.

Nothing we can do about it though. It would take centuries to reverse the milleniums of indoctrination to boys and girls.



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Barkley said:

Ok so apologies as maybe I'm completely ignorant when I say this but I've always wondered why people decide "I'm a man/woman."

Now let's say there's a woman, who likes to dress like a man, speak like a man, take part in activites that are generally associated with males, now this person then decides "I am a man." and that person is now trans and goes through a transition to the other gender.

But aren't they just changing their gender because society tells them they are acting like a man not a woman? Shouldn't they just be comfortable with who they are? A woman who likes things that aren't typically associated with females, that doesn't make them a man.

Or is there another overriding factor other than societal norms that come into play when someone decides they are male not female or vice versa. Otherwise to me it just seems like changing because of societal pressures rather than being your "true self" as your true self is no doubt what you are born as?

 

This is the world which we should try to aim for.  Yes you are correct. 

The overridding factor comes from comfort with things that are familar, but in the end, you may have to decide whether you want to conform to socieities gender norms or what works for you. 

Most people aren't even aware that they have choices because society tells them they have to choose.  Its like having to choose a sexual orientation identification.  I'm just sexual.  Period lol.  I do what the hell I want. 



I suppose for me it was always the same as, for instance, stating a blood type. Just a biological fact that I didn't bother to question as it seemed to fit just fine. If it isn't life-altering in a negative way people tend not question things.

For some it seems to be quite the opposite, growing up and finding that the opposite type seems the more natural fit for your proclivities.

I don't really think it's as complicated as we make it... "male" and "female" and their synonyms from other languages are just akin to a surname, using it to describe the observed biological distinction between the two sexes. Like a surname it's just another identifying name for you that you had no say in.

This system has worked for the vast majority of people, and so it persists. For some it does not work, though, and they feel obligated to adopt whichever identity best fits them.

*Edit* While they're certainly tied to one another, there is a distinction to be made between those who truly feel they were born the wrong gender and a simple overlap in gender roles. Men who marry a working wife and stay with the children, for instance, do not immediately feel they should swap genders.



I've been thinking about it now and I find transgender even more odd now.
Labeling yourself as a gender is striving to conform to society which apparently has strict rules for the definition of genders. But in that process you're actually outcasting yourself from society by trying to change your predefined sex.

Let's take a woman who is sexually attracted to women and also wants a penis and a beard. She gets her sex change operation and what then? Why pretending you are a man now when you could just as easily say that you are a lesbian woman who wants to have a penis and a beard? Why try to insist you're a different person now when all you did was modify your body to satisfy your desire?

It's really weird that we have labels for these completely arbitrary things. It's like having different gender definitions for people who like coffee or tea in the morning.

Would be cool if one day there were no genders we could identify ourselves with and instead identify ourselves with what we do and what we desire. Or maybe it's getting worse and one day we will have transgamers who were console players but now identify as pc master race.



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I never agreed 100% with transgender people.

if you want to wear dresses, use tutus, drink tea, and talk about boys all day long, it doesn't mean you have to become a woman. All that does is make society judge you more.

Perhaps if we stopped caring much for gender(?) Think about it. What if people can do what they want, but not have to change their gender in order to be ridiculed? Sounds amazing, right?

We'd be better off not caring about gender and simply doing as we please.



 

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vivster said:
Would be cool if one day there were no genders we could identify ourselves with and instead identify ourselves with what we do and what we desire.

Exactly, the whole concept of gender as a seperate entity to sex seems insane to me, there are people born of male sex, and people born of female sex and they differ biologically.

They should not be exepected to act a certain way, look a certain way or like certain things, genders, gender roles, and gender stereotypes should not exist. People are people, they should like what they like, act how they like and do as they wish as long as they bring no harm to others.

Then people wouldn't feel like they don't fit in with the body they were born with, as there is no way too fit, there are no expectations, there is no set mold, they are who they are.

People aren't born as one gender but a different sex, gender is a societal concept. People are born and society says they're not acting how they should and then that person becomes trans.

Basically it seems to me that transgender people are created from society's judgemental failings.



Barkley said:

Ok so apologies as maybe I'm completely ignorant when I say this but I've always wondered why people decide "I'm a man/woman."

Now let's say there's a woman, who likes to dress like a man, speak like a man, take part in activites that are generally associated with males, now this person then decides "I am a man." and that person is now trans and goes through a transition to the other gender.

But aren't they just changing their gender because society tells them they are acting like a man not a woman? Shouldn't they just be comfortable with who they are? A woman who likes things that aren't typically associated with females, that doesn't make them a man.

Or is there another overriding factor other than societal norms that come into play when someone decides they are male not female or vice versa. Otherwise to me it just seems like changing because of societal pressures rather than being your "true self" as your true self is no doubt what you are born as?

 

That's an interesting perspective.  It is certainly internalized as a question of one's gender identity, but I do wonder how much of an influence that external gender roles (be they real or imagined) play?

 

Would one consider changing their gender if society had no pre-conceived notions of how gender defines us?  Would such a change feel redundant?

 

I haven't the foggiest idea.  Perhaps it would be best to simply accept them for who they have decided to be.  It may challenge how we feel about gender roles, but perhaps being challenged is long overdue.



Barkley said:

But aren't they just changing their gender because society tells them they are acting like a man not a woman? Shouldn't they just be comfortable with who they are? A woman who likes things that aren't typically associated with females, that doesn't make them a man.

 

 

Yes, that would be ideal, but society in general has not advanced enough to those levels of tolerance. The fact that it's an issue now is the best thing that ever happened to the LGBT community because culture changes constantly and it's doing it right now. Gender is a social construct base on your sex. Society expects that a man fulfills a masculine role and a woman fulfills a femenine role.  If those roles are changed, then you are weird and weird is not acceptable. As it happens with any minority in general. 

The fact that people discriminate and at times fear what they can't understand/experience/relate to it's part of human nature. I honestly couldn't give two craps if my neighbour was gay, lesbian, transgender, catholic, atheist or Xuan Wu the supreme lord of the dark heaven,  because it doesn't affect me in the least, but I get that people get upset when things get them out of their  comfort zone and are not what they think it's "normal" cause that's how any society works.  But really, if you are gonna hate somebody, hate those assholes who spoil Game of Thrones. 



As far as I'm aware gender dysphoria goes far beyond what you are describing.

While a more open and less rigid societal view of gender might certainly help, most trans people actively feel in the wrong body. They don't just like to dress and behave like the opposite sex they also often have major problems with their own body because it often behaves in ways their mind says it shouldn't.

Your profile says you're male, so just imagine for a second waking up tomorrow and suddenly just not feeling right. You feel unbalanced and emotional, that's because your testestorone to estrogen levels have just changed to that of a female (not being a dick about the 'emotional' part it's just what a major hormonal change does to you). Over the next few weeks your fat distribution starts to change, pooling around hips and ass. You start growing boobs. Just think about that seriously for a second (without the 'haha i can grope myself now' mindset).
Would that make you feel good? More than likely you'd be freaked out. You'd probably try to hide it as long as you could. Maybe work out like crazy or wear baggy clothing? This is what puberty for a lot of trans people is like from what I undestand.

Their whole self perception starts to feel wrong. Some actively hate their bodys.

It's been pretty well established that at least parts of gendered behaviour are there from birth and are pretty constistently found in one gender or the other. We are not sure yet, where exactly the nature vs. nurture ratio lies.
We know enough though to have at least some Ideas how gender dysphoria is caused (hormonal levels in the womb being at least a major factor) and to know that it is a real, likely irreversible, biological condition.

Less rigid social concepts of gender would probably help. Probably a lot. But they probably wouldn't eliviate most trans peoples need for surgery and artificial hormones eiher.