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Apple vs the FBI

Forums - Politics Discussion - Apple vs the FBI

LurkerJ said:
mornelithe said:

Ok, and?  What does that have to do with the FBI's very specific warrant, for a very specific case, for a county who owned the phone and contract, for an ex-employee who's dead and isn't due privacy rights?

Pretty sure you won't find many outside of OPEC, and Congressional/House members/staffers who stand to gain from Saudi Arabia's prominence, who don't find Saudi Arabia to be a disgusting theocracy.  I'll go even further and point out that the UN is just as reprehensible for having them chair the Committee on Human Rights.

Ok and what do the legal tax evasion and the "fair wage" issues have to do with this very specific case and why should we widen the scope beyond privacy issues/freedom of choice to discredit certains parties but not others? 

It doesn't it has to do with the principles argument you were attempting to make, however, I was pointing out the Government and businesses alike, are rife with these issues.  Which still has absolutely nothing to do with the Apple and the FBI, but, here we are.



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mornelithe said:
LurkerJ said:

Ok and what do the legal tax evasion and the "fair wage" issues have to do with this very specific case and why should we widen the scope beyond privacy issues/freedom of choice to discredit certains parties but not others? 

It doesn't it has to do with the principles argument you were attempting to make, however, I was pointing out the Government and businesses alike, are rife with these issues.  Which still has absolutely nothing to do with the Apple and the FBI, but, here we are.

I meant to use the word "principles" sarcastically, as Apple has yet to make money from selling data to advertisers the way Google does, Apple has their "principles?" to thank, poor choice of words on my part. As I doubt Apple will think twice before adapting Google's bussiness model when they need a new source of revenue. It's getting late and I have gone off the track long ago. Have a good day.



LurkerJ said:
mornelithe said:

It doesn't it has to do with the principles argument you were attempting to make, however, I was pointing out the Government and businesses alike, are rife with these issues.  Which still has absolutely nothing to do with the Apple and the FBI, but, here we are.

I meant to use the word "principles" sarcastically, as Apple has yet to make money from selling data to advertisers the way Google does, Apple has their "principles?" to thank, poor choice of words on my part. As I doubt Apple will think twice before adapting Google's bussiness model when they need a new source of revenue. It's getting late and I have gone off the track long ago. Have a good day.

By the way, the other thing you may not be aware of (or maybe you are), the warrant doesn't tell Apple to give the FBI access to the phone.  The warrant merely requests Apple create a special OS that removes the 10 incorrect password limit, that is in their software.  The phone would still need to be brute force hacked by the FBI.



CosmicSex said:
I think that protecting lives has to trump privacy. And if the government has a warrant, which it does have then they need to comply with the law. Companies want to be classified with personhood right... well guess what, if I ignore or obstruct the a court ordered warrant, then I am going to jail. So, send them all to jail.

It's not a warrant for data. It's a warrant forcing them to force their engineers to make something. Engineers that will now be subject to the interests of every hostile Government and criminal organisation in the world. You understand how valuable their knowledge would be?



People in this thread clearly don't work in tech, and clearly don't know the sorts of people who work on cryptography and security.

This thing is a life-passion for them, many of them working on these tools to prevent the likes of the FBI and NSA from snooping around your shit.

Forcing them to put their lives at risk to undo their life's work? For phone data that will ultimately be useless?

That's like forcing a Christian baker to cater a gay wedding, and then they get divorced the next day.



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SamuelRSmith said:
CosmicSex said:
I think that protecting lives has to trump privacy. And if the government has a warrant, which it does have then they need to comply with the law. Companies want to be classified with personhood right... well guess what, if I ignore or obstruct the a court ordered warrant, then I am going to jail. So, send them all to jail.

It's not a warrant for data. It's a warrant forcing them to force their engineers to make something. Engineers that will now be subject to the interests of every hostile Government and criminal organisation in the world. You understand how valuable their knowledge would be?

No. I don't see this as more valuable than the lives that were lost. I don't think its more valuable than the lives that could be saved. Its just anti government philosophy.  



SamuelRSmith said:
CosmicSex said:
I think that protecting lives has to trump privacy. And if the government has a warrant, which it does have then they need to comply with the law. Companies want to be classified with personhood right... well guess what, if I ignore or obstruct the a court ordered warrant, then I am going to jail. So, send them all to jail.

It's not a warrant for data. It's a warrant forcing them to force their engineers to make something. Engineers that will now be subject to the interests of every hostile Government and criminal organisation in the world. You understand how valuable their knowledge would be?

A danger they are already in, by being engineers at Apple.  They could just as easily be whisked away by one of these nefarious foreign Governments/Criminal Organizations and be brutally tortured in perpetuity to do whatever the hell said individuals want.

You also fail to explain how these engineers escaped the clear and present danger to their lives, over the past decade+ that Apple's phones have had market dominance.  Especially given that the world over has known they have the capacity to breach said devices, up until they altered the software in 2014.

I liken this to the GoP in the US, altering voting laws to prevent voter fraud, when the volume of voter fraud is so small it couldn't effect the outcome of a village election, let alone a nationwide election.  Likewise here, it's quite clear Apple only did this to try and absolve themselves from any responsibility in assisting the Government in criminal cases where an absurdly narrow focus warrants access (which, frankly, I don't have words for how disgusting that is).



CosmicSex said:

No. I don't see this as more valuable than the lives that were lost. I don't think its more valuable than the lives that could be saved. Its just anti government philosophy.  

What lives could be saved? What data do you think is on that phone? The NSA already has their entire history of who they called and who they messaged.

Truth is, it happened two months ago. The FBI doesn't care about the data on that phone, if they did, this would have come up within a week of the attack. They know as well as anyone with reasonable common sense that anybody involved with the planning of that attack is long-gone out of America, or has taken on new identities.



mornelithe said:

A danger they are already in, by being engineers at Apple.  They could just as easily be whisked away by one of these nefarious foreign Governments/Criminal Organizations and be brutally tortured in perpetuity to do whatever the hell said individuals want.

You also fail to explain how these engineers escaped the clear and present danger to their lives, over the past decade+ that Apple's phones have had market dominance.  Especially given that the world over has known they have the capacity to breach said devices, up until they altered the software in 2014.

I liken this to the GoP in the US, altering voting laws to prevent voter fraud, when the volume of voter fraud is so small it couldn't effect the outcome of a village election, let alone a nationwide election.  Likewise here, it's quite clear Apple only did this to try and absolve themselves from any responsibility in assisting the Government in criminal cases where an absurdly narrow focus warrants access (which, frankly, I don't have words for how disgusting that is).

No it's not a danger that they currently face, as they do not possess the knowledge yet. What's being asked to be done isn't easy. The FBI has given vague descriptions of how they think it'll work, but offer no real implementation.

Apple did it to protect their brand following the NSA fallout. They didn't do it to absolve themselves responsibility, that's a mad claim, if anything the legal burden on them has been made harder through this system. Apple increased data security around the same time that all tech companies did, because data security has been splashed across the international media, and it had serious implications on companies' bottom lines. 



SamuelRSmith said:
mornelithe said:

A danger they are already in, by being engineers at Apple.  They could just as easily be whisked away by one of these nefarious foreign Governments/Criminal Organizations and be brutally tortured in perpetuity to do whatever the hell said individuals want.

You also fail to explain how these engineers escaped the clear and present danger to their lives, over the past decade+ that Apple's phones have had market dominance.  Especially given that the world over has known they have the capacity to breach said devices, up until they altered the software in 2014.

I liken this to the GoP in the US, altering voting laws to prevent voter fraud, when the volume of voter fraud is so small it couldn't effect the outcome of a village election, let alone a nationwide election.  Likewise here, it's quite clear Apple only did this to try and absolve themselves from any responsibility in assisting the Government in criminal cases where an absurdly narrow focus warrants access (which, frankly, I don't have words for how disgusting that is).

No it's not a danger that they currently face, as they do not possess the knowledge yet. What's being asked to be done isn't easy. The FBI has given vague descriptions of how they think it'll work, but offer no real implementation.

Apple did it to protect their brand following the NSA fallout. They didn't do it to absolve themselves responsibility, that's a mad claim, if anything the legal burden on them has been made harder through this system. Apple increased data security around the same time that all tech companies did, because data security has been splashed across the international media, and it had serious implications on companies' bottom lines. 

They claim to not possess the knowledge, however, if it weren't possible they would've said it's not possible.  Which probably would've made this situation a tad easier for them.  The FBI has merely asked them to remove the function that erases the device after 10 incorrect attempts at the password.  There is nothing vague about that request, nor is there really any question as to how it'd work.  Here, I'll throw out an easy solution -> Apple would create the update, it would rest in their systems (likely a standalone in-house) until a warrant was issued under certain criteria that a judge has ok'd, Apple would trigger the update process to that device and have it update itself with their custom OS. <--  The FBI would then be free to attempt to brute force hack the device, w/o having to worry about the data being erased.  There is nothing vague about this.  There is no mystery about the process, it's actually very simple and I find it difficult to believe it's actually a hard thing to do.  And, under this solution, the update would have to come from Apple, it wouldn't be something you just load onto the device via a thumb drive or something.  Hell, they could require the device be brought to Apple headquarters, and the update done at the standalone terminal.  And you still haven't addressed the fact that Apple had unlocked phones in the past under previous warrants, and no nefarious entities obtained said keys (The NSA/CIA etc.. had their own methods, at the time).

Again, this is a very specific request made PUBLICLY by the FBI, regarding a deceased employee of a county, and Apple is refusing to assist a client with accessing a device they legally own.  Once again, the deceased do not have a right to privacy.  

This is not the NSA, this is not the CIA, it's the FBI, submitted through proper channels, to a judge, and the judge has agreed to the request.   You realize these laws were also put in place, after the NSA fallout, right?  We all wanted to have a very tight leash on when a Government agency could access our electronics devices, well, they have a tight leash, and the Judge agreed this is a situation where they are functioning within the boundaries of said leash.