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Forums - Politics Discussion - Greeks, what will you vote?

Zuhyc on 29 June 2015

1) The European Union is meant to stand for prosperity, democracy and social stability, yet its actions, along with that of the IMF, contradict its basic aims. By blackmailing successive Greek governments into submission (see George Papandreou's government which collapsed in 2011) and subscribing to austerity measures that are basically anti-growth and lopsided in favour of banks (particularly French and German banks), the EU are acting against people and in favour of profit. They are attempting to protect the financial sector which caused the global collapse while trying to preserve the fragile monetary union that was badly thought out and poorly implemented.

2) If Greece goes, the next question isn't a case of if another crack appears in the Eurozone, it's a question of when, and that's what the EU are terrified of. So terrified they're willing to doom millions of Greek/European citizens to years or decades of lost growth, lost opportunity, and social instability. I'm a pro-European Brit, but seeing the high-handed, anti-democratic and single-minded decision making at the heart of the EU's approach to the Greek crisis has made me re-consider whether I'd vote to stay in the EU.

3) As for the Greek people being given a referendum on this matter, it's the right thing to do, even if it is politically convenient for the Greek government. Ultimately they were elected on a mandate that rejected further austerity measures, and are now being asked to implement more austerity by the IMF and EU. The implementation of austerity contradicts the basis on which the Greek government was elected; they simply don't have a popular mandate to make that decision so it's right to turn things over to the electorate and ask for the populace to confirm the anti-austerity mandate of the current government, or to accept the austerity measures demanded by Greece's creditors.

Ultimately I just wish the best for and to the Greek people. Despite the lack of sympathy across much of the media, not every European citizen feels that way, and I think many more of us will seriously question the European Union if it continues to fail the Greek people.

1) The austerity measures were too harsh, and it' s said to see the institutions don't realise this.
Of course a big part of the money went to banks, they were holding the Greek debt at the time. The entire point of the bailouts was so that Greece could pay its debts. No one wanted another financial crisis so close after the previous one.

2) I don't exactly understand your point. The EU and IMF wanted to extend the agreements made in previous years. No matter how good or bad those agreements were, the Greek governments had accepted them. The current one just says fuck you in their faces.

3) I agree that a referendum is a democratic thing to do, however the timing is absurd. It should have happened weeks ago at the latest. The Greek government is literally playing with the welfare of millions of people for their own political future. Also, I don't believe they should so heavily emphasis the no vote.

@Generice-user-1: The Greek people can't get any poorer? Look at some african countries to see how poor people can really be.



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Zuhyc on 29 June 2015
Moonhero said:
Maybe the EU should take over and run the government for a few years. Let them figure this out.


A government led by technocrats could be a very good thing for Greece. Obviously, they would need a backing of the majority of the parliament, which they'll never get.



generic-user-1 on 29 June 2015
Zuhyc said:

@Generice-user-1: The Greek people can't get any poorer? Look at some african countries to see how poor people can really be.

greece is way more stable, the people are more educated, and they have things to sale that need labour and are wanted in the west.

they will be poor like the richer south american countrys, not like somalia. 



Zuhyc on 29 June 2015

I'm not saying that, I justed wanted to show that they can get poorer.

I love how you can look into the future and predict how the Greek welfare will be. It could end up better than Latin America, but it can be worse. And I hope the Greek people will realise that.



generic-user-1 on 29 June 2015
Zuhyc said:
I'm not saying that, I justed wanted to show that they can get poorer.

I love how you can look into the future and predict how the Greek welfare will be. It could end up better than Latin America, but it can be worse. And I hope the Greek people will realise that.

they could but they will not. 

and its not that hard looking into the future. its an educated stable country with a steady stream of income(tourism) that will expand if they drop out of the euro(and ISIS is doing them a favor too by destroying every thing older than 1000 years in the middle east). there will be enough money to invest for basic production. even if they lose half their income in the crisis they will be mch better of than many south american countrys.

the greeks have the luck that the goods and services they produce are labour intense.

 



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nanarchy on 29 June 2015
generic-user-1 said:
Zuhyc said:
I'm not saying that, I justed wanted to show that they can get poorer.

I love how you can look into the future and predict how the Greek welfare will be. It could end up better than Latin America, but it can be worse. And I hope the Greek people will realise that.

they could but they will not. 

and its not that hard looking into the future. its an educated stable country with a steady stream of income(tourism) that will expand if they drop out of the euro(and ISIS is doing them a favor too by destroying every thing older than 1000 years in the middle east). there will be enough money to invest for basic production. even if they lose half their income in the crisis they will be mch better of than many south american countrys.

the greeks have the luck that the goods and services they produce are labour intense.

 

Things can get a lot worse, I hope for Greek peoples sake your extreme optimism is correct but I doubt it. Perhaps a better indicator is to look at Argentina fromlate 90s to early 2000. Greece is headed down a similar road, although Argentina never reached the insane debt levels that Greece has, once the funds dry up things get ugly very fast.



JRPGfan on 29 June 2015
nanarchy said:

Things can get a lot worse, I hope for Greek peoples sake your extreme optimism is correct but I doubt it. Perhaps a better indicator is to look at Argentina fromlate 90s to early 2000. Greece is headed down a similar road, although Argentina never reached the insane debt levels that Greece has, once the funds dry up things get ugly very fast.


Argentina default is very differnt than what Greece will get.

Also alot of things that resulted in the default where outsides the hands of their controll... they got good conditions.

Things will be differnt/worse for greece, if it happends.



Moonhero on 29 June 2015
Zuhyc said:
Moonhero said:
Maybe the EU should take over and run the government for a few years. Let them figure this out.


A government led by technocrats could be a very good thing for Greece. Obviously, they would need a backing of the majority of the parliament, which they'll never get.

Roll in with tanks. Just do what we Americans do when we want to fix a country.  :)



Ask stefl1504 for a sig, even if you don't need one.

generic-user-1 on 29 June 2015
nanarchy said:
generic-user-1 said:
Zuhyc said:
I'm not saying that, I justed wanted to show that they can get poorer.

I love how you can look into the future and predict how the Greek welfare will be. It could end up better than Latin America, but it can be worse. And I hope the Greek people will realise that.

they could but they will not. 

and its not that hard looking into the future. its an educated stable country with a steady stream of income(tourism) that will expand if they drop out of the euro(and ISIS is doing them a favor too by destroying every thing older than 1000 years in the middle east). there will be enough money to invest for basic production. even if they lose half their income in the crisis they will be mch better of than many south american countrys.

the greeks have the luck that the goods and services they produce are labour intense.

 

Things can get a lot worse, I hope for Greek peoples sake your extreme optimism is correct but I doubt it. Perhaps a better indicator is to look at Argentina fromlate 90s to early 2000. Greece is headed down a similar road, although Argentina never reached the insane debt levels that Greece has, once the funds dry up things get ugly very fast.

the gdp took 5 years to get back to the pre cisis level.  and argentina had a lot more problems before the crash and default.

the debt level doesnt matter if you default you dont pay your debt, and this will be alot easyer for greece because basicly just the imf, the EU, the ecb and greek bank own the bonds. the government doesnt need new funds, they are in the black when you dont count the interrest for the debt.



fleischr on 29 June 2015

Ultimately, I think the EU and Russia will both do something to collectively bail out Greece.

EU wants to help, because they don't want to see the country fall under the auspices of the Golden Dawn long-term. They don't want to take on the moral hazard of forgiving all the loans, but know that Greece is too important to be left to fall off the wayside.

Russia likely is already drawing up plans to make Greece something like a proxy through the means of under-the-table trade deals and economic investment. If you can give a Greek a job, you can get a Greek's vote. And if you get the Greeks votes, you can shape how they deal with the EU at large.

If I were Greek, I'd vote against this. EU needs to come up with a long-term plan that acknowledges the Greek people have suffered enough.



I predict NX launches in 2017 - not 2016