By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - What Occupy movement understood and most don't.

Aielyn said:
Kasz216 said:
A) In regards to this part.  Unfortunitly Research isn't like it is in say, Civilization, where you can put your taxes more towards beakers and science will develop things lineraly quicker.

B) Further more, it wouldn't drive the economy if the technology was free.

C) Essentially global warming would rely on completely unknown tech, because current tech and methods just couldn't work.  Outside of argueably Nuclear which in of itself can be problematic.  The big issue with most renewable technology is essentially how to store energy for peak times, and how to adjust quickly and how to store energy.  Solutions unlikely to be solved anytime soon, and if they are, good luck getting them to a cheap enough level.

D) Assuming we did discover this, we're talking decades before we could even finish building the plants needed to harness this... by then chances are it's far to late as the carbon feedback loop will have started.  (assuming it hasn't already.)

E) If the US completely stopped emitting all hydrocarbons today.  It would make zero change in global warming.  it'd just get burned elsewhere.  Stopped mining?  It'd make a difference.  A very small one however.

 

A) Being a mathematician and mathematical physicist, I think I know how research works better than you do. And more money for scientific research will accelerate the process of actual research, because right now, there's a severe lack of funding for research of all sorts, due in part to the GFC and countries going on austerity binges (if you don't mind the minor contradiction in that phrase).

B) I didn't say that the results of the research would drive the economy. I said that spending money on the research would, itself, stimulate the economy. As in, during the research stage, not the application stage.

C) You assume that it would rely on such tech. In fact, there's a hell of a lot of research already being done on things like improving efficiency on solar cells (my PhD supervisor's first PhD student worked on mathematical modelling of solar cells to that end, in fact), improving efficiency of batteries (my supervisor's own work had to do with battery cathodes), addressing the concerns of nuclear waste (my own PhD was related to this, although it didn't involve the nuclear waste stage at all), and many other things that would help. But as I said, there's an issue of lack of funding at the moment, and there are many ideas that haven't had the benefit of dedicated research. And that's before you factor in the research into improving energy efficiency of other things (such as, for instance, air conditioning of office buildings - I've seen a job opening for mathematical modelling of that sort of thing).

On a related point, even with just ideas, some of these sorts of things are being addressed... like this.

D) I wasn't just talking about improving power generation (although that's certainly a major concern). Power consumption is just as important. And research into climate itself is also part of the work that needs to be done. I can tell you right now, Climate modellers are crying for more research money so that they can employ more researchers, at least here in Australia. Just being able to get a more accurate model of the climate itself would enable them to better test ideas for stopping the positive feedback problem. Carbon capture, as another example, needs more research.

E) Hence the need for results to be patent-free, so that they may be implemented throughout the world. Even if some countries would see the resulting technology as too expensive for them, it's likely that other organisations would help to implement them, if there were concrete demonstration that doing so would help to save the world.

Note that I'm not an American - I'm Australian. You mention what impact the US ceasing all hydrocarbon emissions would have. I'm concerned about the entire world. And for the entire world to address the problem, the "rich" nations need to put money into research. We need to find ways to enable the "poor" nations to grow without further destroying our world, and we need to find ways to reduce the destruction caused by our own activities. America, in particular, needs to stop passing the buck by going "but such-and-such a country isn't doing it, so why should we?". The answer to the question, by the way, is because you're always claiming to be world leaders, and you're obscenely wealthy compared to the other countries that haven't signed on to the various protocols. Australia under John Howard also refused - thankfully, we now have more reasonable leaders that have made a major push towards reducing our emissions. That's right - a country that produces far less than America is doing everything it can.

So yeah... in otherwords you've shifted this entire arguement completely off topic.  When originally it was "what can american polticians do about global warming".

In otherwords, my original question which was "Essentially nothing without a global dictatorship" is in fact... correct.

Again... the various protocols, have not stopped or slowed global warming in anyway.  Argueably they have made things worse, since it's allowed poorer nations access to more carbons giving them a bigger and more expanded carbon infostructure, while demand stays in the developed countries... just pent up due to regulations.

 

And yes... people are working on that tech... and it's far from even remotely close to being worth, anything.  Which again, my point.

No matter what you do... it's not going to be finished in time.

 

Also no... the research wouldn't stimulate the economy.  Not in any "true" way.  It might bump up the economy, then come crashing down after the research is done, but true economic growth is built only upon real demand.



Around the Network
Mazty said:

Anthropogenic global warming is not a fabrication at all. That is a complete failing of understanding the science behind it (have you read any of it?).
The science indicates that the rise in CO2 is certainly anthropogenic with the increase in carbon-13. Whether this has caused global warming, we do not know, because the vast amount of systems involved is simply too complex to simulate. That 20X higher is complete psudeo-science. Yes it may have been higher during the creation of the planet, but that's entirely irrelevant as we don't live on such a planet. We can specifically see that humans have had an effect on the atmospheric composistion due to isotope ratios. 

The problem is that you may be thinking that you are doing everyone a great favour by enlightening them with the "truth" with regard to global warming, but your notion of it is no more warped then the beliefs of the followers of the Peoples Temple. Best advice I can give you is don't trust anyone until you do the research yourself - as in go to the sources (peer reviewed papers etc), not wiki or other bs.

Self-contradiction isn't a good way to counter my argument. The largest contributor to greenhouse effect is water vapor, with minimal contribution from CO2, Methane, and NOS.

29 gigatons of CO2 (Humans)  / 750 Gigatons (Nature) = 3.9% contribution to total CO2 from humans. 

Let's say 10% contribution of CO2 to the greenhouse effect. 0.39% human contribution to the greenhouse effect. 

To address you nonseniscal rebuttal of my 20x higher claim, here you go:

"Scientists have blended NASA images with geography and climate reconstructions to create an animation of the Earth as it would have appeared from space 500 million years ago. This animation, released on April 22, 2011 to celebrate Earth Day, is part of the Visible Paleo-Earth (VPE) project of Planetary Habitability Laboratory (PHL) at the University of Puerto Rico. It’s fun to compare the Earth of 500 million years ago with today’s Earth by clicking “play” on the two videos below simultaneously.

The first video depicts the era of the late Cambrian Period when desert land masses clustered in the southern hemisphere. With melted sea ice, shores remained flooded, the warm shallows creating ideal habitats for simple plants and animals to evolve."

500 million years ago there was life and the concentration of CO2 was 20x as high. 

Maybe you should seek your own advice and research this fallacy of anthropogenic global warming. The data is quite contradictory.

There is not a 1-1 link between CO2 and global average temperature. I suggest you look at the papers and report yourself, I can provide PDFs from most journals if you need access. If you find a contradiction or weakness in their paper you can publish a paper of your own refuting or fixing it, that's the great thing about science.

CO2 was indeed higher (not 20x higher, not while life existed). But at that time, the planet was mostly rainforest, very hot and inhospitable to most modern species. We would see mass extinction with a return to those natural levels, and billions of humans would still suffer. The Earth was once entirely covered in lava too, is that natural?

See above. Never did I say there was a 1-1 ratio of CO2:GAT. That's actually the point I was making as most people who tout anthropogenic warming is caused by CO2.



dsgrue3 said:
Mazty said:

Anthropogenic global warming is not a fabrication at all. That is a complete failing of understanding the science behind it (have you read any of it?).
The science indicates that the rise in CO2 is certainly anthropogenic with the increase in carbon-13. Whether this has caused global warming, we do not know, because the vast amount of systems involved is simply too complex to simulate. That 20X higher is complete psudeo-science. Yes it may have been higher during the creation of the planet, but that's entirely irrelevant as we don't live on such a planet. We can specifically see that humans have had an effect on the atmospheric composistion due to isotope ratios. 

The problem is that you may be thinking that you are doing everyone a great favour by enlightening them with the "truth" with regard to global warming, but your notion of it is no more warped then the beliefs of the followers of the Peoples Temple. Best advice I can give you is don't trust anyone until you do the research yourself - as in go to the sources (peer reviewed papers etc), not wiki or other bs.

Self-contradiction isn't a good way to counter my argument. The largest contributor to greenhouse effect is water vapor, with minimal contribution from CO2, Methane, and NOS.

29 gigatons of CO2 (Humans)  / 750 Gigatons (Nature) = 3.9% contribution to total CO2 from humans. 

Let's say 10% contribution of CO2 to the greenhouse effect. 0.39% human contribution to the greenhouse effect. 

To address you nonseniscal rebuttal of my 20x higher claim, here you go:

"Scientists have blended NASA images with geography and climate reconstructions to create an animation of the Earth as it would have appeared from space 500 million years ago. This animation, released on April 22, 2011 to celebrate Earth Day, is part of the Visible Paleo-Earth (VPE) project of Planetary Habitability Laboratory (PHL) at the University of Puerto Rico. It’s fun to compare the Earth of 500 million years ago with today’s Earth by clicking “play” on the two videos below simultaneously.

The first video depicts the era of the late Cambrian Period when desert land masses clustered in the southern hemisphere. With melted sea ice, shores remained flooded, the warm shallows creating ideal habitats for simple plants and animals to evolve."

500 million years ago there was life and the concentration of CO2 was 20x as high. 

Maybe you should seek your own advice and research this fallacy of anthropogenic global warming. The data is quite contradictory.

There is not a 1-1 link between CO2 and global average temperature. I suggest you look at the papers and report yourself, I can provide PDFs from most journals if you need access. If you find a contradiction or weakness in their paper you can publish a paper of your own refuting or fixing it, that's the great thing about science.

CO2 was indeed higher (not 20x higher, not while life existed). But at that time, the planet was mostly rainforest, very hot and inhospitable to most modern species. We would see mass extinction with a return to those natural levels, and billions of humans would still suffer. The Earth was once entirely covered in lava too, is that natural?

See above. Never did I say there was a 1-1 ratio of CO2:GAT. That's actually the point I was making as most people who tout anthropogenic warming is caused by CO2.

L2Science. 
There is sound scientific proof to speculate that global warming is anthropogenic, hence the reason declaring it as a possible reason for global warming is entirely acceptable. Fact is we have no idea why global warming is happening and frankly may not know for hundreds of years due to the complexity of the systems involved. Therefore we have to conclude what hypothesise are valid, and stating anthropogenic causes is entirely acceptable. 

Stating water vapour as being a contributor to global warming doesn't alter the fact that humans have clearly increased CO2 content. Also you fail to understand that these gases effect global warming in varying degrees. Methane for example is much more harmful then watervapour on a like-for-like basis. 

If you want to even attempt to argue this, please give me some papers that support your nonsensical claims. I've talked to professors over this topic - where are you getting your figures from? Also comparing the complex ecosystem to that of the planet 500 million years ago is just flawed thinking. You may as well be saying "old building were made out of wood, therefore it would be fine if the Burj Khalifa was made out of wood". Congratulations on completely failing to address any one of the many different atmospheric and oceanic systems in the world. 

Stop talking about something you have no understanding of. Do some research first that constitues actual research, not hopping around pseudo-science sites. 



Kasz216 said:

So yeah... in otherwords you've shifted this entire arguement completely off topic.  When originally it was "what can american polticians do about global warming".

In otherwords, my original question which was "Essentially nothing without a global dictatorship" is in fact... correct.

Again... the various protocols, have not stopped or slowed global warming in anyway.  Argueably they have made things worse, since it's allowed poorer nations access to more carbons giving them a bigger and more expanded carbon infostructure, while demand stays in the developed countries... just pent up due to regulations.

And yes... people are working on that tech... and it's far from even remotely close to being worth, anything.  Which again, my point.

No matter what you do... it's not going to be finished in time.

Also no... the research wouldn't stimulate the economy.  Not in any "true" way.  It might bump up the economy, then come crashing down after the research is done, but true economic growth is built only upon real demand.

The protocols haven't worked because no government currently actually cares about global warming due to the short life span of a politician. Why worry about something that'll happen 100 years from now when you need results to show people in 4 years that will gain you their vote?
If the USA actually wanted to do something about global warming, it would start investing in cleaner energy. It hasn't, and it won't, because of the above. It has nothing to do with foreign powers (if I read your post correctly). 

If the USA said that in 4 years they wanted all industry in the USA to reduce carbon pollution by 50% otherwise they will be taxed 500% and if they choose to move country their assests locked and imports banned, companies would suddenly focus on being cleaner. But what party is going to piss off some of their main funding sources? 



Soleron said:

Yeah, been investigated and CLEARED. Because it turns out that when you sift through hundreds of people's daily work emails some of it looks bad. Ever sent a joke round the office? There's no evidence climate scientists have any motive other than to have accurate data, so that their papers will recieve recognition when others confirm that data.

The anti-climate-change scientists tend to have very clear agendas and political affiliations.

There is not a 1-1 link between CO2 and global average temperature. I suggest you look at the papers and report yourself, I can provide PDFs from most journals if you need access. If you find a contradiction or weakness in their paper you can publish a paper of your own refuting or fixing it, that's the great thing about science.

CO2 was indeed higher (not 20x higher, not while life existed). But at that time, the planet was mostly rainforest, very hot and inhospitable to most modern species. We would see mass extinction with a return to those natural levels, and billions of humans would still suffer. The Earth was once entirely covered in lava too, is that natural?

It's true though, that throughout most of history oxygen levels have been lower and CO2 levels way higher. Our current state is that of an ice age, by the way, an absolute rarity over the course of Earth's living history, not to mention the planet is starting to suffocate in the lack of available carbon as large swaths of it were swallowed by the crust as organic material precipitated and moved down the rock layers. That's why plants need only 1-2% sunlight to reach maximum efficiency but 5x our current CO2 levels to be saturated on a similar way. 

Besides, rainforest rank way higher on biomass density and diversity than any other major ecossystem out there, not to mention rising sea levels will increase the coast-to-land ratio, further boosting ecological systems in the long term. I think you are just a racist who doesn't want to see tropical diversity taking over your lands... ;)



 

 

 

 

 

Around the Network
Mazty said:

L2Science. 
There is sound scientific proof to speculate that global warming is anthropogenic, hence the reason declaring it as a possible reason for global warming is entirely acceptable. Fact is we have no idea why global warming is happening and frankly may not know for hundreds of years due to the complexity of the systems involved. Therefore we have to conclude what hypothesise are valid, and stating anthropogenic causes is entirely acceptable. 

Stating water vapour as being a contributor to global warming doesn't alter the fact that humans have clearly increased CO2 content. Also you fail to understand that these gases effect global warming in varying degrees. Methane for example is much more harmful then watervapour on a like-for-like basis. 

If you want to even attempt to argue this, please give me some papers that support your nonsensical claims. I've talked to professors over this topic - where are you getting your figures from? Also comparing the complex ecosystem to that of the planet 500 million years ago is just flawed thinking. You may as well be saying "old building were made out of wood, therefore it would be fine if the Burj Khalifa was made out of wood". Congratulations on completely failing to address any one of the many different atmospheric and oceanic systems in the world. 

Stop talking about something you have no understanding of. Do some research first that constitues actual research, not hopping around pseudo-science sites. 

Glad you admit that anthropogenic induced global warming is merely speculative. That's my entire point. The hypocrisy of the rest of your post is astounding really. You've cited no sources, yet request mine as if you are somehow more credible than I? I cited a direct quotation from NASA. You've cited your own nescience.

"What about the association of climate change with atmospheric greenhouse gases? On the time-scale of hundreds of millions of years, carbon dioxide has sharply declined; its concentration was as much as 20 times the present value at the beginning of the Cambrian Period, 600 million years ago [Berner, 1997].Yet the climate has not varied all that much and glaciations have occurred throughout geologic time even when CO2 concentrations were high. 

On a time-scale of decades and centuries, there seems to be an association between temperature and CO2 concentration, as judged by measurements of Greenland and Antarctic ice cores. (The association is even better for the greenhouse gas methane.) Yet, the causal connection is not at all clear. Only recently has it been possible to obtain sufficient resolution to demonstrate that the increase in CO2 lags by about 600 years behind the rapid warming that signals deglaciation, the end of an ice age and the beginning of an interglacial warm period [Fischer et al., 1999]. "

http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/Questionable.pdf   [google scholar]



Kasz216 said:
Aielyn said:
Kasz216 said:
...

Also no... the research wouldn't stimulate the economy.  Not in any "true" way.  It might bump up the economy, then come crashing down after the research is done, but true economic growth is built only upon real demand.

Demand is the wrong word.

You mean taking fewer workers to do the same job due to advancing technology or more efficient operation. And this is what research does do, indirectly (takes 10+ years for fundamental research to spur practical advances that are then put into production). Whereas Hurricane Sandy stimulated lots of demand for construction but negatively impacted the economy.



I dont know about the american medical system but the closest thing is when I took my cat to the vet.

A checkup and a prescription costed $500. For 1 hours worth of time. Its moments like that when I realize its probably like this in the states for people.

Canadians really are blessed with our health care and I hope the US gets it too down the road.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

sales2099 said:
I dont know about the american medical system but the closest thing is when I took my cat to the vet.

A checkup and a prescription costed $500. For 1 hours worth of time. Its moments like that when I realize its probably like this in the states for people.

Canadians really are blessed with our health care and I hope the US gets it too down the road.

Once everyone who lived during the Cold War is dead and the plutocrats can no longer trot out the socialist bogeyman.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

dsgrue3 said:
Mazty said:

L2Science. 
There is sound scientific proof to speculate that global warming is anthropogenic, hence the reason declaring it as a possible reason for global warming is entirely acceptable. Fact is we have no idea why global warming is happening and frankly may not know for hundreds of years due to the complexity of the systems involved. Therefore we have to conclude what hypothesise are valid, and stating anthropogenic causes is entirely acceptable. 

Stating water vapour as being a contributor to global warming doesn't alter the fact that humans have clearly increased CO2 content. Also you fail to understand that these gases effect global warming in varying degrees. Methane for example is much more harmful then watervapour on a like-for-like basis. 

If you want to even attempt to argue this, please give me some papers that support your nonsensical claims. I've talked to professors over this topic - where are you getting your figures from? Also comparing the complex ecosystem to that of the planet 500 million years ago is just flawed thinking. You may as well be saying "old building were made out of wood, therefore it would be fine if the Burj Khalifa was made out of wood". Congratulations on completely failing to address any one of the many different atmospheric and oceanic systems in the world. 

Stop talking about something you have no understanding of. Do some research first that constitues actual research, not hopping around pseudo-science sites. 

Glad you admit that anthropogenic induced global warming is merely speculative. That's my entire point. The hypocrisy of the rest of your post is astounding really. You've cited no sources, yet request mine as if you are somehow more credible than I? I cited a direct quotation from NASA. You've cited your own nescience.

"What about the association of climate change with atmospheric greenhouse gases? On the time-scale of hundreds of millions of years, carbon dioxide has sharply declined; its concentration was as much as 20 times the present value at the beginning of the Cambrian Period, 600 million years ago [Berner, 1997].Yet the climate has not varied all that much and glaciations have occurred throughout geologic time even when CO2 concentrations were high. 

On a time-scale of decades and centuries, there seems to be an association between temperature and CO2 concentration, as judged by measurements of Greenland and Antarctic ice cores. (The association is even better for the greenhouse gas methane.) Yet, the causal connection is not at all clear. Only recently has it been possible to obtain sufficient resolution to demonstrate that the increase in CO2 lags by about 600 years behind the rapid warming that signals deglaciation, the end of an ice age and the beginning of an interglacial warm period [Fischer et al., 1999]. "

http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/Questionable.pdf   [google scholar]


It's speculative, but there is very good evidence to suggest it is anthropogenically caused. Ignoring the facts or pretending they aren't there is just naiveity at it's worst. 
Sadly you probably don't have the required access to the papers that state the information (I've sourced notes), but here's one of many carbon delta 13 sources:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v324/n6094/abs/324237a0.html

You do realise oxygen levels were 10% of what they are today? Claiming the Cambrian period levels are acceptable would pretty much kill all large animals on this planet. You need to question what you read more as you are just swallowing anything that's thrown your way. 

Ever heard of the Vostok ice cores? Nope? Well then please, stop talking about something you have clearly never, ever been educated on. Seriously. Here, go read:
http://www.daycreek.com/dc/images/1999.pdf

"Finally, CO2 and CH4 concentrations are strongly correlated with Antarctic temperatures; this is because, overall, our results support the idea that greenhouse gases have contributed significantly to the glacial–interglacial change. This correlation, together with the uniquely elevated concentrations of these gases today, is of relevance with respect to the continuing debate on the future of Earth’s climate."

Now that that is sorted, you have to consider two things.
1) Is it better to be safe then sorry and reduce atmospheric pollution asap in case the effects are irrevesible?
2) Is global warming really the best thing we can deal with with our money? Go read Bjon Lomborg. 

Protip: Don't debate something you haven't been properly educated on. Ask questions, but leave it at that.