UNITY - Nintendo & Wii U Finish The REVOLUTION

[Zod95]

Final-Fan said:

2a2.  In what way are the graphics "dated"?  And I am not an expert on the SHMUP genre but as one who has played many of those games from several different generations I can confidently assure you that the games are evolving at least as much as (for instance) your sports game example.  The "bullet hell" type of game went from just throwing a lot of bullets on the screen to making it so crowded that you have to predict the pattern and dance through it; then a game called Ikaruga pioneered a system where there were black and white bullets and it was impossible to dodge them all, but you could change between being immune to black or white, and also absorb that color to use as a powerup.  The game I linked makes the player manage up to like half a dozen different systems of some kind (I watched the video but I forget) and blah blah blah.  You speak from ignorance when you say the genre isn't developing compared to other genres, or that this particular game isn't evolved.

This statement of yours has too many incorrections. First, I didn't say the genre isn't developing. I said the game seemed retro to me. Second, you fill many lines talking about game design and that has nothing to do with graphics. Third, the fact that the graphics are dated doesn't mean they aren't evolving from previous games in the genre, it means they are not as evolved as games in general (at least the ones that aren't retro).

Plus, graphics are just 1 gaming aspect. Think about the gameplay. Is it as sophisticated as the games from 7th gen? Do the same thing regarding content. Etc.

 

Final-Fan said:

But seriously, if you open this request by banning artistic vision and the quality of the storyline from consideration, I would rather get a more detailed idea of what counts as acceptable metrics.  Does ingenius level design count?  Do only the sheer number of levels enter into consideration?  Does the amount of in-game bonus content count?  (i.e. things you find by exploring withing the game that aren't necessary to completing the game.)  Does it count for less if it's just something literally unlocked and shown to you as bonus content outside the regular game?

First of all, artistic vision is extremely important but it has one problem: it is subjective. That means anybody in bad faith can pick a shitty producer and say it makes the best games ever, claiming that they are amazing pieces of art... And it has a 2nd problem: art costs nothing. Being artistic or very competent on making games doesn't mean the dev is working hard or investing a lot of money. That means it's possible to exist some producers in this industry that are talented enough to make low-budget games that are insteresting to play and thus extract huge amounts of money from the market that never goes back to the industry again. That's why it is so important that, at least in a first step, we focus just on what is measurable and proof of hard work / heavy investment (which show the real commitment of a dev). That is already the answer for all your questions: you can define any requirement (like I have defined 9 yet) as long as it fulfills these 2 criteria (1. it's measurable - 2. it's proof of hard work / heavy investment). Therefore, ingenious level isn't measurable. Number of levels is measurable but doesn't tell whether there was hard work, since the levels can be too simple and repetitive. The same for in-game bonus.

 

Final-Fan said:

Since you asked about a Nintendo game that is "very deep", I'll go ahead and answer with Metroid Prime.  That is a game with very good graphics for its day.  It has a great atmosphere and huge levels that all interconnect.  It has a very deep backstory that can be investigated by players that choose to examine the environment around them and see the clues and records of what has happened, as well as find out all about the flora and fauna.  This information can be reviewed after being seen by the player at their leisure.  It has a good combat system that was very original and very different from earlier Metroid games (which were 2D side scrollers while Prime is 3D and first person).  It is an objective fact that it received practically universal acclaim, but I guess that is only objective evidence that is is a "good" game, not a "deep" one.

By now you have already concluded Metroid Prime isn't objectively deep. Metascore and other numbers from the critic are in fact measurable BUT they measure something subjective, not substential. So, that can't qualify.

 

Final-Fan said:

2a4a.  I dispute that the Wii's Mario games don't have "high quality graphics" (which should not be taken to mean that I concede the other claims).  I dispute that the Wii's graphics are "not 7th gen", and as evidence I say that the Wii indisputably can and has done graphics far superior to the graphics of previous generations (Xbox being generally considered the best of 6th gen).  That makes it 7th gen.

Just saying that A is better than B proves nothing. Please show me a Mario Wii game with better graphics than this:

http://download.ultradownloads.com.br/wallpaper/62066_Papel-de-Parede-Gran-Turismo-4_1024x768.jpg

or this:

http://uk.ign.com/images/games/geometry-wars-xbox-482233/4fa6c9c8cdc388ed13e876f4

 

Final-Fan said:

2a4b1.  I was not aware that that is what you meant by photorealistic.  In that case, I can only disagree that copying an existing environment rather than forging a completely new environment is a sign of harder work.

But it is. Among the thousands of games ever created how many do you think that are photo-realistic? Why would that number be so small? Maybe because not everybody can do that. And, among those who can, not everyone is willing to do so. It demands a lot of equipment, time, effort and money. Also, creating fictional environments is a way of avoiding being evaluated. "If something goes wrong, change it. If there is a detail stucking the process, avoid it."...you can't do that in regards to reality. If the details are like that, you have to do them like that...otherwise your incompetence will be visible when comparing the environment with reality. Believe me, photo-realism is far more difficult and time consuming than simply creating environments at the devs will.

 

Final-Fan said:

2a4b2.  "Simulating gameplay", without context, as incredibly unclear.  If you'd said "simulation-type gameplay" or "reality-simulating gameplay" then I would have more than likely understood what you meant.  Simulator games are, indeed, to the best of my knowledge "not Nintendo's style", which is a completely different thing from saying "hard work" isn't their style.

From the 9 requirements I've defined, you couldn't say 1 single Nintendo IP that fulfilled at least 1 of them. That's miserable and that strongly suggests Nintendo isn't a hard-working or heaving-investing producer. I can tell you 1 Nintendo game that qualifies: Pokemon (it has more than 100 gameplay variants, which are the pokemons...altough it's easier to do it with baloon-based games).

As for Sony, I can tell:

- The Getaway (photo-realistic environment + characters replicated from reality)

- This Is Football (gameplay with more than 100 variants)

- Formula 1 (photo-realistic environments + simulating gameplay)

- LittleBigPlanet (fully editable levels)

- Heavy Rain (characters replicated from reality)

- Gran Turismo (gameplay with more than 100 variants)

- Massive Action Game (more than 100 players in a single match)

- ModNation Racers (fully editable levels)

- MLB The Show (gameplay with more than 100 variants)

- Eye Of Judgment (gameplay with more than 100 variants)

- inFamous 2 (fully editable levels)

Sony is younger than Nintendo in videogames and has yet much fewer games released. Still, it has at least 11 games qualified.

 

For Microsoft, I can tell:

- Project Gotham Racing (photo-realistic environments)

- Forza Motorsport (photo-realistic environments)

- Project Spark (fully editable levels)

- Microsoft Flight Simulator (simulating gameplay)

- Microsoft Train Simulator (simulating gameplay)

Microsoft is even younger and with fewer games. That's why it has less games qualified than Sony...but still more than Nintendo.

 

Then you have EA:

- Just Cause (area with more than 300km2)

- Need For Speed World Online (area with more than 300km2)

- Need For Speed Shift (photo-realistic environments)

- FIFA (gameplay with more than 100 variants)

- NBA (gameplay with more than 100 variants)

- Madden (gameplay with more than 100 variants)

- NHL (gameplay with more than 100 variants)

 

Then Ubisoft:

- TrackMania 2 (fully editable levels + more than 100 players in a single match)

- ShootMania (fully editable levels + content expandable with features created by gamers)

- Watch Dogs (photo-realistic environments)

- The Crew (more than 100 players in a single match + area with more than 300km2)

 

Then Codemasters:

- TOCA Race Driver (photo-realistic environments)

- Operation Flashpoint (simulating gameplay + area with more than 300km2)

- GRID (photo-realistic environments)

- Fuel (area with more than 300km2)

 

Then there are Activision-Blizzard, Atari and many more with 1 or 2 games that also qualify. And this is just as far as I know. Sony has most probably more than 11 games, Microsoft more than 5, etc. These are just the ones I'm aware of. But the point is: Nintendo, your so beloved billionaire dev with dozens of critically acclaimed games and the biggest veteran in the industry...has...just...1...game...qualified...

We can all pretend Nintendo is the best, profits billions and deserves them, cares about gamers like no other does...but maybe the king has no clothes. No one dares to tell that because, after all, it's our so beloved king that saved the industry in 1985 and is fighting the HD lack of creativity and innovation. But the truth is there underneath and it becomes visible when we start looking at the numbers and the facts and everything that can really measure substantial matters. I'm sure I'm not the first thinking about this and probably most of Nintendo fans are aware of this disguised truth. But we tend to protect something we like, even if that protection isn't legitimate...even if we have to lie to ourselves.

 

Final-Fan said:

2a4b3.  Do you know how much area the largest Nintendo game worlds have?  Do you know how big Metroid Prime is?  Do you know how big ANY of them are?  Unless you do you are just blowing smoke out your ass.

You tell me how big are them. You tell me which Nintendo games are so big that someone cared to measure. I'm not blowing smoke anything since I haven't took my chances for any Nintendo game (except for Pokemon, which I know for sure that has more than 100 pokemons). If you do find any Nintendo game, besides Pokemon, that fulfills at least 1 of those 9 requirements, you say it. That was the challenge (for you to find at least 10 Nintendo games that qualify). At the beginning you tried. But now, if you think you can't, don't blame me for that.

 

Final-Fan said:

2b&c.  You've given me a clear impression of disdain for Wii Sports.  Perhaps I was mistaken in developing that impression.  What is your opinion of Wii Sports as far as how much you personally enjoy it?

If Wii Sports came to the PS3, I would buy it (if I hadn't bought already Sports Champions). I find that mini-games collection quite interesting. I find Nintendo Land even more interesting and I would like to have that experience on PS4. But both are far from making me to desire a Wii or a Wii U. But what if I hadn't this positive opinion about Wii Sports? Would that make you believe I'm not qualified to tell it's not 7th gen? Does my opinion make a difference regarding the facts I point out? I'm actually able to put aside my tastes (subjectivity) in order to focus on facts (objectivity) that support my arguments. I feel sorry for you if you don't think that's possible.

 

Final-Fan said:

But actually, that's not what I said.  I said that the evolution was what you didn't like, not the game itself.  The evolution you deny the existence of.  Let's examine that.  What game like Wii Sports has ever existed in the past?  It was created to show off the Wii's motion controls, and to introduce the Wii's Mii system.

That's precisely what I think. I see Wii Sports as a bunch of demos to introduce the player in the Wii.

 

Final-Fan said:

There had been games before that used motion controls.  There had been games before that let you customize the face of your character.  But I really don't see how you can say that Wii Sports was regressing to an earlier generation of games when IMO it's really unlike earlier generations of games!  Just because it is simplistic doesn't mean it is simplistic in a similar way to the simplicity of NES games, or SNES or whatever.

You may be able to make a definition of "retro" that Wii Sports fits, but at that point "retro" is NOT going to be synonymous with "game from the past" or "not an evolution".  Why is it impossible for something to evolve into something simpler?

Now you're trying to be philosophic. "Retro games" is not the same as "games from the past"?! Videogaming (which is part of Information Technology) can evolve into something simpler?? Sure, I'm immagining the next gen PCs to have less processing power, less memory and less features. A PC with 20MB HDD...amazing! That's not regression, no! That's just an evolution some won't like.

 

Final-Fan said:
3.  The PS3's hard drive capability does not put it in a different magnitude of power as far as games are concerned compared with not having a hard drive, as the Xbox 360 Core did and as the Wii does.  Would you say that the PS3 is in a different magnitude of power compared with the 360 Core? 

Is the HDD the only spec of a console?

 

Final-Fan said:
4.  Please explain to me all of the things that SA did, which previous games had not done, that SMG subsequently did in a similar way.

You are confused. I've talked about Sonic Adventure 1 when comparing to the impact Mario 64 has produced. And I've talked about Sonic Adventure 2 when comparing Sega to Nintendo and who copies who. Mario Galaxy copied Sonic Adventure 2 on the 3D planet gravity gameplay, which is the core of the Mario Galaxy's concept.