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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Is Pokemon going to the right direction?

sundin13 said:
burninmylight said:

And my argument is that a full Dex is inherently better with no tradeoff, and we have previous games that have already proved this. We don't have to think of reasons to think the games would be better with a limited Dex, we have existing reasons to prove the games are better with a full Dex, and existing reasons to prove that a limited Dex doesn't make for more polished games with richer experiences. You've already pointed out the latter with Sw/Sh.

Every existing Pokemon has already taken its dev time. Every single Pokemon that existed on the 3DS games (i.e., Gen 1-7) already has pre-existing HD models and animations that were created for future use. You can find plenty of articles and posts in forums or on Reddit proving this. GameFreak STILL uses them to this day. Go look at something that has been in every single game mainline game, like Lucario. How much has that model and its animations changed? The argument that it would take copious amounts of dev time would apply under normal circumstances, but not in the case of Pokemon. That time was already taken and spent, and until TPC allows GameFreak to redo every model and animation from scratch, that argument holds no water. Heck, GF and Creatures Inc. did MORE work before the 3DS days when every single Pokemon would get new hand-drawn animations for each generation or game.

And again, you've already pointed out a couple of games that didn't benefit from GF's piss-poor excuse for not including a full Dex in Sw/Sh. Those games look like ass, run like ass, and cost $90 before you feel like you've gotten the amount of gameplay you would have gotten in previous games, while STILL not having a full Dex. And Dynamax sucks. So by claiming that including more mon hampers the overall experience, you're carrying GF/TPC's water and allowing them more excuses for less content along with poor optimization.

Yes, Pokemon Stadium exists. I've already pointed out how the animations in it are STILL better than anything GF has done, 25 years later. But Pokemon Stadium wasn't developed by GameFreak. And again, it's around 25 years old, so of course it has a more limited roster and moveset. But that is also a moot point, because you're practically saying that each Pokemon has a unique animation for each one of their moves, when we all know that they don't. That is highly disingenuous. Each mon has like, two animations, maybe three if they are really special; Pikachu has more than that based on it's different costumes and distributions, but it's Pikachu. SSB characters have more taunt animations than most Pokemon have total animations. And Pokemon don't even make contact with each other when doing their attack animations. They usually have one animation for physical attacks, one for special attacks and support moves, and a very simple hurt/faint animation. There is FAR less work in designing Pokemon animations than you're making it sound like. Oh, and did I mention that every single Pokemon that existed on the 3DS games already has pre-existing HD models and animations that were created for future use, like if the devs ever wanted to include them in future HD consoles? Therefore, the work is already done.

You are absolutely entitled to your wants and opinions. However, where I disagree with you is the mistaken belief that including a full Dex means a less polished game. It doesn't. The resources are already there, as is the proof from previous games. We also have proof that a half-ass Dex can still lead to a half-ass game, Sw/Sh. So since we know that the amount of polish, refinement and content in a mainline Pokemon game has nothing to do with whether or not it includes a full Dex, I don't understand why anyone would argue for less available Pokemon, which is absolutely an argument for less content.

There has never been a full Pokemon game with anywhere close to the level of polish that I am talking about, so I'm not sure what game you think managed to do it with a full Dex. It doesn't exist. Again, I am not asking for the same low quality animations to be carried over to the new game. I want new animations that are actually good. 

Oh, so you're asking for a theoretical Pokemon game that GameFreak has never made and has shown less signs of ever making as time marches on. You're asking for something even less realistic than a game with a full roster. While you're at it, go ahead and ask for a Smash Bros. that plays like a 3D arena fighter, or a Star Fox/Metroid/F-Zero crossover with racing and missions that take place in space and on foot.

I agree that a limited Dex doesn't necessarily make a better game. That is why that has never been my argument. However, if we are to speak of the direction of the franchise, I believe that a direction which focuses on building a game with a level of polish that has never been seen in the mainline Pokemon games with a small Dex would create a better experience than a game which keeps offering the same low polish gameplay but with a big Dex.

I would much rather each Pokemon game focus on doing something new (ideally with a limited Dex focusing on new and regional pokemon) than every game just being a messy grab bag of every gimmick they've ever come up with.

A more limited Dex also allows the games to do more with what they have

Sounds like it's your argument. Either way, you're wishing upon a star that cutting content means a more "polished" game (adding more unique animations to Pokemon isn't polish) when that has never been true with this series. Masuda flat out lied about cutting the National Dex in favor of higher quality animations and whatnot, but what happened? Both the new and returning mon in Sw/Sh have two or three animations, just like always.

https://gamerant.com/pokemon-sword-shield-national-dex/

So I was wrong about you towing the company line about less Pokemon meaning better games, but it doesn't change the fact that you're looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. A game with a full roster of half-ass animated critters is far more realistic and feasible for GF than a game with half a roster full of critters with Sakurai levels of work put in.

I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. You seem to say it yourself in your post but completely miss the point:

"Go look at something that has been in every single game mainline game, like Lucario. How much has that model and its animations changed? The argument that it would take copious amounts of dev time would apply under normal circumstances, but not in the case of Pokemon. That time was already taken and spent, and until TPC allows GameFreak to redo every model and animation from scratch, that argument holds no water."

Hmmmm, it is almost like you are agreeing with me that the animations are low effort and that it would take a lot of time for GameFreak to redo the models and animations to make them good....

No almost about it. That's the main thing we can agree on. Yeah, I missed your point, but I get it now, and now I'm telling you that it ain't happening. If GF was going to redo the models and animations, why the hell would it still be using those that were made around a decade ago? Why wouldn't GF have done it with Sw/Sh, with Arceus, or with Sc/V? How can GF do it when Pokemon is pretty much CoD where they have a year to pump out a new game from the assembly line from year to year, and the devs barely have time to take a bathroom break between sequels? Why would they even do it when the games are selling as good as ever?

Or, since this miracle Pokemon game you're asking for probably isn't coming before the heat death of the universe, GF could at least put in something a little more realistic than that, which is to include a full Dex in the games, especially since it has all the resources for it already. That's the part you find so hard to comprehend.

"But that is also a moot point, because you're practically saying that each Pokemon has a unique animation for each one of their moves, when we all know that they don't. [...] Each mon has like, two animations, maybe three if they are really special; Pikachu has more than that based on it's different costumes and distributions, but it's Pikachu. SSB characters have more taunt animations than most Pokemon have total animations. And Pokemon don't even make contact with each other when doing their attack animations. They usually have one animation for physical attacks, one for special attacks and support moves, and a very simple hurt/faint animation. "

Yeah, it's almost like I am arguing that the game should have more unique move animations...

Go ahead and argue for Final Fantasy VII Remake to get a Switch port while you're at it.

The transition away from many of the things that make Pokemon games feel low effort and low polish would take a monumental amount of effort with a full Dex to the extent where it is not reasonable to expect these changes if the games maintain a full Dex. If the fanbase continues to demand a full Dex (or even a very large Dex), the game will never get to the point where it has the level of polish that I would like the series to get to. 

Based on what? Your own conjecture? I'm sorry, are you a developer? If so, maybe you can explain to me why GF can keep reusing the same tired ass models it has for around a decade, but it would have to throw everything out the window and rebuild from the ground up to get the miracle game you want. And then when that game's sequel comes out, GF would have to throw all of those assets out and start from scratch again.

That argument makes no sense. It would be far more realistic to say that GF needs to build on what is already there, because there is definitely a foundation. But nope, let's demand that a small studio full of old heads that had to be dragged kicking and screaming into modern gaming development and now has to churn out sequels roughly every two or three years with expansions in between suddenly find the time and inspiration to start all the way from the bottom up. Let's go ahead and ask them to reboot the entire franchise.

And while you're at it, learn the definition of polish.



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Maybe instead of going in the right direction, Pokémon should go in the left direction.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

burninmylight said:
sundin13 said:

There has never been a full Pokemon game with anywhere close to the level of polish that I am talking about, so I'm not sure what game you think managed to do it with a full Dex. It doesn't exist. Again, I am not asking for the same low quality animations to be carried over to the new game. I want new animations that are actually good. 

Oh, so you're asking for a theoretical Pokemon game that GameFreak has never made and has shown less signs of ever making as time marches on. You're asking for something even less realistic than a game with a full roster. While you're at it, go ahead and ask for a Smash Bros. that plays like a 3D arena fighter, or a Star Fox/Metroid/F-Zero crossover with racing and missions that take place in space and on foot.

I agree that a limited Dex doesn't necessarily make a better game. That is why that has never been my argument. However, if we are to speak of the direction of the franchise, I believe that a direction which focuses on building a game with a level of polish that has never been seen in the mainline Pokemon games with a small Dex would create a better experience than a game which keeps offering the same low polish gameplay but with a big Dex.

I would much rather each Pokemon game focus on doing something new (ideally with a limited Dex focusing on new and regional pokemon) than every game just being a messy grab bag of every gimmick they've ever come up with.

A more limited Dex also allows the games to do more with what they have

Sounds like it's your argument. Either way, you're wishing upon a star that cutting content means a more "polished" game (adding more unique animations to Pokemon isn't polish) when that has never been true with this series. Masuda flat out lied about cutting the National Dex in favor of higher quality animations and whatnot, but what happened? Both the new and returning mon in Sw/Sh have two or three animations, just like always.

https://gamerant.com/pokemon-sword-shield-national-dex/

So I was wrong about you towing the company line about less Pokemon meaning better games, but it doesn't change the fact that you're looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. A game with a full roster of half-ass animated critters is far more realistic and feasible for GF than a game with half a roster full of critters with Sakurai levels of work put in.

I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. You seem to say it yourself in your post but completely miss the point:

"Go look at something that has been in every single game mainline game, like Lucario. How much has that model and its animations changed? The argument that it would take copious amounts of dev time would apply under normal circumstances, but not in the case of Pokemon. That time was already taken and spent, and until TPC allows GameFreak to redo every model and animation from scratch, that argument holds no water."

Hmmmm, it is almost like you are agreeing with me that the animations are low effort and that it would take a lot of time for GameFreak to redo the models and animations to make them good....

No almost about it. That's the main thing we can agree on. Yeah, I missed your point, but I get it now, and now I'm telling you that it ain't happening. If GF was going to redo the models and animations, why the hell would it still be using those that were made around a decade ago? Why wouldn't GF have done it with Sw/Sh, with Arceus, or with Sc/V? How can GF do it when Pokemon is pretty much CoD where they have a year to pump out a new game from the assembly line from year to year, and the devs barely have time to take a bathroom break between sequels? Why would they even do it when the games are selling as good as ever?

Or, since this miracle Pokemon game you're asking for probably isn't coming before the heat death of the universe, GF could at least put in something a little more realistic than that, which is to include a full Dex in the games, especially since it has all the resources for it already. That's the part you find so hard to comprehend.

"But that is also a moot point, because you're practically saying that each Pokemon has a unique animation for each one of their moves, when we all know that they don't. [...] Each mon has like, two animations, maybe three if they are really special; Pikachu has more than that based on it's different costumes and distributions, but it's Pikachu. SSB characters have more taunt animations than most Pokemon have total animations. And Pokemon don't even make contact with each other when doing their attack animations. They usually have one animation for physical attacks, one for special attacks and support moves, and a very simple hurt/faint animation. "

Yeah, it's almost like I am arguing that the game should have more unique move animations...

Go ahead and argue for Final Fantasy VII Remake to get a Switch port while you're at it.

The transition away from many of the things that make Pokemon games feel low effort and low polish would take a monumental amount of effort with a full Dex to the extent where it is not reasonable to expect these changes if the games maintain a full Dex. If the fanbase continues to demand a full Dex (or even a very large Dex), the game will never get to the point where it has the level of polish that I would like the series to get to. 

Based on what? Your own conjecture? I'm sorry, are you a developer? If so, maybe you can explain to me why GF can keep reusing the same tired ass models it has for around a decade, but it would have to throw everything out the window and rebuild from the ground up to get the miracle game you want. And then when that game's sequel comes out, GF would have to throw all of those assets out and start from scratch again.

That argument makes no sense. It would be far more realistic to say that GF needs to build on what is already there, because there is definitely a foundation. But nope, let's demand that a small studio full of old heads that had to be dragged kicking and screaming into modern gaming development and now has to churn out sequels roughly every two or three years with expansions in between suddenly find the time and inspiration to start all the way from the bottom up. Let's go ahead and ask them to reboot the entire franchise.

And while you're at it, learn the definition of polish.

Yeah, "good animations" are mythical. Completely outside of the realm of possibility.

C'mon man, the fuck is this?

I don't like the direction Pokemon is going. 

I would prefer they went a different direction.

That's basically it. Why are you losing your shit over that?

Last edited by sundin13 - on 10 August 2022

Yes it is, you guys leave Pokemon alone!



ANY direction that moves them away from their complacent little box they have been in for decades is good. They need to explore new ways to enhance Pokemon, even if they're failures. That is how a development team, hell, PEOPLE, grow. Game Freaks problem is that they set in that box for decades not needing to keep up with design/technology trends and now they have to play some serious catchup



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Pokemon at visual quality, tech, design should be at this level:



Xxain said:

Pokemon at visual quality, tech, design should be at this level:

I still don't get how Youkai watch flopped so badly. Their 3DS games were all vastly superior to Pokemon, but the franchise died so fast, less than 5 years later it's like it never existed at all 



I remember bringing this up
But between Sword/Shield, Brilliant Diamond/Shining Pearl, Legends Arceus and now Scarlett and Violet, most, if not all the Pokémon models should have been "remade" into HD, so not having the time to make them all shouldn't really be an excuse, and if it IS an issue for the Pokémon company, maybe it would be an idea for less new Pokémon to be added per gen.

That could be better for them in order to polish what they have got. Animations ect.



IcaroRibeiro said:
Xxain said:

Pokemon at visual quality, tech, design should be at this level:

I still don't get how Youkai watch flopped so badly. Their 3DS games were all vastly superior to Pokemon, but the franchise died so fast, less than 5 years later it's like it never existed at all 

Not Surprising at all actually.

YoKai is aimed Japanese kids, with monster designs only Japanese people will understand. Yokai watch does not have the global appeal of giant turtle with cannons coming out if it's shell. Too centered around Japanese culture. Don't matter where you are; Giant turtle with cannons is badass. Nose monster? Not so much.



Xxain said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

I still don't get how Youkai watch flopped so badly. Their 3DS games were all vastly superior to Pokemon, but the franchise died so fast, less than 5 years later it's like it never existed at all 

Not Surprising at all actually.

YoKai is aimed Japanese kids, with monster designs only Japanese people will understand. Yokai watch does not have the global appeal of giant turtle with cannons coming out if it's shell. Too centered around Japanese culture. Don't matter where you are; Giant turtle with cannons is badass. Nose monster? Not so much.

But even in Japan Yokai is flopping hard. That's the point