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Forums - Politics Discussion - Elon Musk acquires a 9 percent stake in Twitter

 

Is free speech suppressed on the internet's main public squares

Yes 32 52.46%
 
No 27 44.26%
 
Undecided 2 3.28%
 
Total:61
numberwang said:
RolStoppable said:

It has become a regular occurence in recent years that republicans made laws in states where they have control, laws that are so mindboggingly ridiculous that they push society 50 to 200 years back in time, living up to Trump's slogan of making America great again (i.e. giving more means of oppression back to white people or religion). On the other hand, it's rare to hear of any laws made by democrats that are facepalm-worthy.

Democrats just raised military spending to new heights, refused student loan forgiveness, enabled draconian lockdown laws, pushed the USA close to a nuclear conflict with Russia, created the highest inflation in US history, open borders, pushing censorship for science, supporting regime changes throughout the world, etc. The uniparty has different talking points to dazzle smoothbrains but actual policies are identical.

I think we all wish that economic policy differences are all we had to disagree on, but they're not in the same category as forcing women to give birth to their rapists children, or permit discrimination against how people are born, etc.

Refusing student loan forgiveness is a fair criticism against the current administration in an of itself. But it's also something that conservative politicians would never ever dream of supporting while in power. They'd rather give more tax breaks to the most wealthy, while people can't afford medical bills that are many many many higher than anywhere else in the industrialized world.

I'd take Covid regulatory suggestions more seriously from people who are not so incredibly selfish that they can't even be bothered the slight inconvenience of wearing a mask for a few minutes awhile they go shopping.

And please elaborate on the "highest inflation in US history" and "open borders" claims.

The inflation rate appears to be the highest it's been in around 40 years, though I don't know about ever.

United States Inflation Rate - March 2022 Data - 1914-2021 Historical - April Forecast (tradingeconomics.com)

Either way, these inflation rates are almost entirely attributed to Covid 19 affecting production all over the world, and Russia invading Ukraine, which soared gasoline prices by over 50% compared to last year, and oil by 70%. The invasion also jumped food prices by 8.8%. The highest since 1981. Partially because Ukraine and Russia are among the largest exporters of wheat in the world.

All of which are largely out of the U.S. governments control. What they can do is begin to break away from dependence on Russia's energy blackmail.
If only some politicians had warned us about the many dangers of dependence on fossil fuel years ago....

Just because Fox News says so doesn't mean USA have open borders. But even the countries that do still have border control and laws and restrictions for who can and cannot move around freely. (i.e. citizens of the European Union).

Not giving your microphone to someone spreading harmful disinformation ≠ censorship for science.
You can still shout about it somewhere else. I don't have to give you my microphone while you do it.

Last edited by Hiku - on 17 April 2022

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For those debating the severity of the pandemic, considering that the last time a disease killed this many people in this short of a time frame was the Spanish flu from just over a century ago, I'd say that qualifies as "once in a lifetime." In the U.S. alone, nearly a million people died because of this disease in just a two-year span, resulting in a significant spike in overall deaths, so I'd say certain policy measures to combat it were more than justified.

Of course, certain "once in an x" events have become more common due to climate change, so in a similar vein there's a non-zero chance we could have another major pandemic on our hands at some point before everybody alive today has passed on.

In any case, the pandemic was made a lot worse than it needed to be because of people who have a warped, childish concept of "freedom," the ones that lashed out, sometimes violently, when they were asked to do the most minimal of things for the sake of public health, all because they confused inconvenience with tyranny and invoked some claimed "conspiracy" against them to justify their selfishness. I spoke at length about this a couple of months ago here, but that sort of toxic individualism, that "You're not the boss of me!" attitude, that belief in freedom without responsibility isn't just immature, it's dangerous. It's probably no coincidence that the nations with the highest per capita death count from COVID-19 are ones that have cultures that tend to emphasize the individual above the needs of society rather than ones that tend to emphasize the reverse.

I'm constantly amazed how so many people, esp. Americans (and doubly so American right-wingers), are willing to put their lives and the lives of others at risk to avoid being inconvenienced. I see it every day on the highway. Some people simply don't believe that they have any responsibility towards others, and that the law doesn't apply to them, but rather only to people they don't like (esp. those deemed part of an out-group). Unfortunately, this behavior is actively encouraged by cranks, charlatans, and grifters in the media and politics.

So yeah. Social media platforms and other websites with user-generated content that banned people for spreading COVID-19 misinformation were absolute justified in doing so. They were also justified in banning people for spreading the Big Lie that the 2020 election was "stolen," another bit of nonsense that got people hurt and even killed. The government might be unwilling and (legally) unable to prosecute people for spreading dangerous bullshit, and some officials are even encouraging people in their reckless behavior, but that doesn't mean private property owners have to platform that garbage. There has to be some sort of accountability at some point.

And one last thing about the American right's backlash against social media after Saint Donnie and other notable lunatics got banned, I find their reactions utterly hypocritical, though hypocrisy has been their stock-in-trade since at least the Reagan years. They spent decades preaching the gospel of laissez-faire free-market capitalism and claiming that any government interference in the market, however slight, is literal communism. But the moment private property rights were used in way that inconvenienced them, they threw away those professed principles and demanded Big Government solutions to their problems. Not that railing against government power while simultaneously using Big Government solutions when it suits them is anything new with the GOP. DeathSantis is continuing that proud tradition in Florida as we speak.



Visit http://shadowofthevoid.wordpress.com

In accordance to the VGC forum rules, §8.5, I hereby exercise my right to demand to be left alone regarding the subject of the effects of the pandemic on video game sales (i.e., "COVID bump").

Shadow1980 said:

And one last thing about the American right's backlash against social media after Saint Donnie and other notable lunatics got banned, I find their reactions utterly hypocritical, though hypocrisy has been their stock-in-trade since at least the Reagan years. They spent decades preaching the gospel of laissez-faire free-market capitalism and claiming that any government interference in the market, however slight, is literal communism. But the moment private property rights were used in way that inconvenienced them, they threw away those professed principles and demanded Big Government solutions to their problems. Not that railing against government power while simultaneously using Big Government solutions when it suits them is anything new with the GOP. DeathSantis is continuing that proud tradition in Florida as we speak.



RolStoppable said:
ConservagameR said:

You already pointed out that the Republicans are against the minority, which is a really bad thing and makes them poor leadership. If the Democrats are doing the same thing, ignoring the minority, doesn't that also mean it's a really bad thing and they're poor leadership?

Contradictory isn't really the right word to describe it. It would just be extremely illogical. Some people will work for free, in the hopes that they will eventually get paid. It doesn't take long before those people eventually leave and go elsewhere if they don't get paid in due time. It makes little to no sense for someone, or a group, to only ever vote for one party, even though that party never does anything for them.

Hiding small things, sometimes many, in (big) bills, happens all the time, and most are aware of this. That's one of the easiest ways to get things through that would be controversial enough that the people wouldn't accept and their political representatives would vote against. The media tends to only cover the main portion of the bills, so the people don't get to find out, unless they go to lesser known media, or take the time to read the entirety of the bills themselves. Both sides are guilty of this.

As for how bills and laws would be different, this is the same type of point that Dulfite and Torillian were trying to make, which were poor arguments because both were suggesting things will or could be a certain way, when both were just taking educated guesses at best, and really didn't know because they couldn't. Nobody can know for certain what the past could have been, or what the future will be.

What I pointed out about the republicans is that they make laws that put society 50-200 years backwards, and yes, it can be infered from that that republicans are against minorities. However, the minorities we are talking about are groups such as people of color who can't do anything about this specific trait of them. This is not the same thing as a minority trait that is defined by the mind, such as what gets called social justice warrior and the like - or as Torillian put it, the Twitter left. What is bad is the discrimination of people based on their color of skin or sexual orientation, and that is what the republicans do; this shouldn't need to be spelled out, but I guess I have no choice when you are acting deliberately obtuse.

The far-left repeatedly voting for the democrats without getting any of their ideas turned into reality isn't illogical. You argue that they would go elsewhere, but as I pointed out in my previous post, there's no viable alternative in the political system of the USA. The only "elsewhere" is the republicans who will actively work against anything that could be considered left ideas. Therefore a vote for the democrats who will do nothing good in the eyes of the far-left is still preferable to abstaining or voting republican, because power in the hands of the republicans will only ever result in bad things in the eyes of the far-left.

That both democrats and republicans insert small things into larger bills is just about the only sound point you've made, but it isn't a point that anyone in this thread will contest anyway, so it's moot.

Lastly, my point about bills and laws didn't deal with hypotheticals, but actual bills and laws that have been passed in states where republicans have control. There are no "what ifs" here, but only irrefutable reality.

Well if we're going to use the moot point deflection, then what do POC's have anything to do with the crazy left which is what's being talked about here? Unless you think the POC's fit in that category, in which case you said that portion of the left is crazy and is being ignored.

As for irrefutable reality, everything the Republicans do isn't racist, though it's almost always claimed to be nowadays, at least by the crazy left. To also believe that every single Republican and Republican controlled government is automatically going to be worse for you is absolutely illogical. Nobody is forced to vote and for good reason.

So a good point means nothing if it doesn't lead to furthering the argumentative portion of a discussion? Since when is this was a requirement?

This is how it's supposed to work though. Republican controlled states, especially so called red states, where the majority of conservatives vote in Republican politicians, ask for those types of bills and laws, and if they don't, they vote for another Republican, or in most states, a Democrat eventually, if they don't get their way. Same goes for most Democrat controlled states, especially so called blue states.

The problem is the federal government trying to force every state, and all voters in them, to adhere to Democrat or Republican bills and laws. Beside what's already been widely agreed upon and established that makes the country a whole through federal government, each state should be left to it's own devices. Most who really don't like or won't accept a states politics will vote them out, or leave, and eventually the state has no choice but to change for the better or pay the price.

Allowing the system as is to work is slow, and causes some chaos and pain, but works out best. Forcing the system from the very top down, causes more and more chaos, and eventually major pain.

Lastly, I realize no state would ever be even close to 100% conservative or liberal voters, so yes, it'll never be close to perfect for everyone, but it's not about being perfect, it's about being the best it possibly can be at this point in time. The best way to do that, the majority of the time, is to focus on smaller separate groups, not a focus as if all are one.



I support Musk and agree that free speech has been severely and unjustly curtailed online.



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ConservagameR said:

Well if we're going to use the moot point deflection, then what do POC's have anything to do with the crazy left which is what's being talked about here? Unless you think the POC's fit in that category, in which case you said that portion of the left is crazy and is being ignored.

As for irrefutable reality, everything the Republicans do isn't racist, though it's almost always claimed to be nowadays, at least by the crazy left. To also believe that every single Republican and Republican controlled government is automatically going to be worse for you is absolutely illogical. Nobody is forced to vote and for good reason.

So a good point means nothing if it doesn't lead to furthering the argumentative portion of a discussion? Since when is this was a requirement?

This is how it's supposed to work though. Republican controlled states, especially so called red states, where the majority of conservatives vote in Republican politicians, ask for those types of bills and laws, and if they don't, they vote for another Republican, or in most states, a Democrat eventually, if they don't get their way. Same goes for most Democrat controlled states, especially so called blue states.

The problem is the federal government trying to force every state, and all voters in them, to adhere to Democrat or Republican bills and laws. Beside what's already been widely agreed upon and established that makes the country a whole through federal government, each state should be left to it's own devices. Most who really don't like or won't accept a states politics will vote them out, or leave, and eventually the state has no choice but to change for the better or pay the price.

Allowing the system as is to work is slow, and causes some chaos and pain, but works out best. Forcing the system from the very top down, causes more and more chaos, and eventually major pain.

Lastly, I realize no state would ever be even close to 100% conservative or liberal voters, so yes, it'll never be close to perfect for everyone, but it's not about being perfect, it's about being the best it possibly can be at this point in time. The best way to do that, the majority of the time, is to focus on smaller separate groups, not a focus as if all are one.

If you didn't make such an effort to twist my words, you would most likely not confuse yourself so much.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Shipments

RolStoppable said:

If you didn't make such an effort to twist my words, you would most likely not confuse yourself so much.

Do you think Elon is confused?



ConservagameR said:
RolStoppable said:

If you didn't make such an effort to twist my words, you would most likely not confuse yourself so much.

Do you think Elon is confused?

The first Google result for "Elon Musk freedom of speech" is a Twitter poll posted by him where he asks if Twitter adheres to free speech. The first two visible responses to his poll explain that Twitter is a private company, not a government.

So there's no doubt that Elon is confused.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Shipments

RolStoppable said:
ConservagameR said:

Do you think Elon is confused?

The first Google result for "Elon Musk freedom of speech" is a Twitter poll posted by him where he asks if Twitter adheres to free speech. The first two visible responses to his poll explain that Twitter is a private company, not a government.

So there's no doubt that Elon is confused.

Then I am in good company.



RolStoppable said:
ConservagameR said:

Well if we're going to use the moot point deflection, then what do POC's have anything to do with the crazy left which is what's being talked about here? Unless you think the POC's fit in that category, in which case you said that portion of the left is crazy and is being ignored.

As for irrefutable reality, everything the Republicans do isn't racist, though it's almost always claimed to be nowadays, at least by the crazy left. To also believe that every single Republican and Republican controlled government is automatically going to be worse for you is absolutely illogical. Nobody is forced to vote and for good reason.

So a good point means nothing if it doesn't lead to furthering the argumentative portion of a discussion? Since when is this was a requirement?

This is how it's supposed to work though. Republican controlled states, especially so called red states, where the majority of conservatives vote in Republican politicians, ask for those types of bills and laws, and if they don't, they vote for another Republican, or in most states, a Democrat eventually, if they don't get their way. Same goes for most Democrat controlled states, especially so called blue states.

The problem is the federal government trying to force every state, and all voters in them, to adhere to Democrat or Republican bills and laws. Beside what's already been widely agreed upon and established that makes the country a whole through federal government, each state should be left to it's own devices. Most who really don't like or won't accept a states politics will vote them out, or leave, and eventually the state has no choice but to change for the better or pay the price.

Allowing the system as is to work is slow, and causes some chaos and pain, but works out best. Forcing the system from the very top down, causes more and more chaos, and eventually major pain.

Lastly, I realize no state would ever be even close to 100% conservative or liberal voters, so yes, it'll never be close to perfect for everyone, but it's not about being perfect, it's about being the best it possibly can be at this point in time. The best way to do that, the majority of the time, is to focus on smaller separate groups, not a focus as if all are one.

If you didn't make such an effort to twist my words, you would most likely not confuse yourself so much.