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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Which competitor is more responsible for the demise of Sega?

 

Who is most responsible for Sega’s switch to 3rd Party?

Microsoft 5 6.58%
 
Nintendo 6 7.89%
 
Sony 65 85.53%
 
Total:76
Chrkeller said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

I'd have to say that Sonic was not as good as 8-bit Mario.  However, 16-bit Sonic was definitely better than 16-bit Mario.  I liked Super Mario World when I first played it, but I also felt it was somewhat disappointing.  It didn't hold a candle to Mario 3, and I think they destroyed the difficulty in Super Mario World which is what disappointed me about the game the most. 

However, this isn't even the worst part.  The worst part is that Super Mario World was the only 16-bit Mario game.  Meanwhile the Genesis had 3 regular Sonic games, Sonic and Knuckles and Sonic CD.  They really, really delivered when it came to high quality platformers and that is what the market wanted at the time.  Nintendo's answer to Sonic wasn't Mario.  It was Donkey Kong Country.  I personally do not think the DKC games are nearly as good as either Mario or Sonic.

Also, you are right that Sega had awesome arcade games, however you are wrong that the world has moved on from arcade style games.  Here are some games that have been made fairly recently that could easily work in an arcade with some minor modifications:  Mario Kart 8, Super Smash Bros Ultimate, Just Dance, Guitar Hero/Rock Band/any rhythm game, Puyo Puyo Tetris, Wii/Switch Sports, Splatoon, Flappy Bird, etc....  People still like arcade style games, but outside of Japan, the venue doesn't really exist like it used to, and Nintendo would rather make arcade style games for their consoles.

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island??

I won't disagree that 16-bit Sonic was good...  but god awful transition to 3D.  Adventure is terrible compared to Mario 64 and Sunshine.  

Sure, but that is a very small list of arcade 'like' games compared to Elden, Zelda, Mario, Souls, God of War, Uncharted, Halo, Gears, Horizon, Tsushima, Final Fantasy, Tomb Raiber, etc, etc, etc.  

Yoshi's Island is not a real Mario game, and I suspect you already know that.  It was really the beginning of the "Yoshi" line of games like Yoshi's Wooly World, etc....  Super Mario World was the only real Mario game in the 16-bit era.

Yeah, I agree that Sega was only real competition for Nintendo for one generation.  I've never played a 3D Sonic game, but it's obvious that they weren't received nearly as well as their 2D counterparts.  However, the main point I was making is that, in terms of first party output, Sonic was the closest competitor that Nintendo ever had.  The Sonic games were the best games of the 16-bit generation, but I do think the SNES had more S-tier and A-tier games than the Genesis did.  This is mostly because I think the SNES had better third party support.  I mean, what does Phantasy Star 4 get compared to?  Final Fantasy 6.  I personally think Final Fantasy 6 is a better game, but Nintendo wasn't making RPGs that were as good as either one.  If you strip away all games made by third party companies (including things like Super Mario RPG), then I think Sega and Nintendo are really close in the 16-bit era.  They both made their share of great games, and sometimes I would give the win to Sega (e.g. Sonic, Shining Force) and sometimes I would give the win to Nintendo (e.g. Zelda), and there are other games that don't have a good first party counterpart on the other system (e.g. Metroid, Punch Out, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, etc...).

The list of arcade-like games is small, because it is mostly Nintendo making them.  It is not because people don't want to play them.  I named quite a few popular franchises (e.g. Mario Kart, Smash Bros, etc...).  There are a lot of people that like these games.  However most big publishers simply choose not to fund games like these.



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The_Liquid_Laser said:

Yeah, I agree that Sega was only real competition for Nintendo for one generation.  I've never played a 3D Sonic game, but it's obvious that they weren't received nearly as well as their 2D counterparts.  However, the main point I was making is that, in terms of first party output, Sonic was the closest competitor that Nintendo ever had.  The Sonic games were the best games of the 16-bit generation, but I do think the SNES had more S-tier and A-tier games than the Genesis did.  This is mostly because I think the SNES had better third party support.  I mean, what does Phantasy Star 4 get compared to?  Final Fantasy 6.  I personally think Final Fantasy 6 is a better game, but Nintendo wasn't making RPGs that were as good as either one.  If you strip away all games made by third party companies (including things like Super Mario RPG), then I think Sega and Nintendo are really close in the 16-bit era.  They both made their share of great games, and sometimes I would give the win to Sega (e.g. Sonic, Shining Force) and sometimes I would give the win to Nintendo (e.g. Zelda), and there are other games that don't have a good first party counterpart on the other system (e.g. Metroid, Punch Out, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, etc...).

You know, I really think that Sony prematurely disrupted the contest between Sega and Nintendo.  I am not certain that the Dreamcast would have been beaten so easily by Nintendo if Sony was not in the picture.  I think that Nintendo would have won, but the Gamecube would have lost market share compared to previous generations and Sega would have still been in the race.

Nintendo was so weak in the latter N64 and Gamecube eras.  Really, from about 1999 to 2006, Nintendo's home console market was facing the darkest period since the NES other than the Wii U era.  Honestly, in a lot of ways the Gamecube painted an even darker picture for Nintendo's home console market than the Wii U because the Wii U basically only failed because of poor hardware, the Nintendo brand was still strong and popular.  That said, during the Gamecube era, Nintendo had great hardware and games but gamers were rejecting the brand.  Millennial gamer kids were growing up and were looking for something more mature than what Nintendo could offer and third parties were just done with Nintendo.  Sega has always been a bit edgier than Nintendo and western third parties definitely had a better relationship with Sega back then compared to Nintendo.  Also, while the GCN had decent RPG's, some of the best ones were from Sega (Skies of Arcadia, Phantasy Star Online).  I am sure that if was the GCN vs. Dreamcast, the DC would have been the RPG console and likely would have rocked the market with its versions of GTA3, Grand Tourismo 3, Final Fantasy X while the GCN would have still been struggling with it's "kiddie" image.

Maybe this should be it's own thread, but in my opinion if Sony was not in the picture, the 6th generation would have looked something like:

- Gamecube: 50 million

- Dreamcast: 40 million

-XBox: 70 million





Cute and honest Sega Saturn fan, also noone should buy Sega grrrr, Sega for life.

Sega liked pushing It's competitors buttons Sega just can't help it

Shotgun vs N64

falling PS1

Sony saying PS2 emotion Engine stronger than PC triggered the one of many blows to Dreamcast, Sega struggling while making commericals against opposition because we liked to be bad until the very end we got another gamer ^^, But It was Sega attitude we kept poking the bear.

Last edited by SegaHeart - on 14 April 2022

Cute and honest Sega Saturn fan, also noone should buy Sega grrrr, Sega for life.

Watch this 3 minute video

Throwing this I get emotional in 0:06 -0:13 mark and rest of the video Sonic Adventure 2 released june 2001 on Dreamcast, watch entire video. it has a feel. I love  Sonic Adventure 2.

From February 2, 2001

When Sega announced earlier this week that it plans to cease the production of its Dreamcast console, exit the hardware market, and develop software for its former competitors--Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft-- it surprised the industry and shocked the followers of the innovative gaming company. Two generations of the company's console hardware failed to gain the expected installed base and market share, despite the obvious gifts of the Dreamcast in particular, and forced the company to deal with four consecutive fiscal years of considerable losses. By repositioning itself as a third-party software publisher, Sega hopes to recuperate some of those losses and return to profitability by developing its inventive and entertaining software products for a much broader audience.

Last edited by SegaHeart - on 14 April 2022

Cute and honest Sega Saturn fan, also noone should buy Sega grrrr, Sega for life.

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As others have said, the primary fault lies with Sega themselves.

And as others have said, the competitor most responsible is Sony.

Fear of the Playstation led Sega to make one of its big mistake in rushing the Saturn to market before it had enough games to launch and alienating many retailers. Sony was the console manufacturer that took advantage of the Saturn's high price and difficulty to program for, snatching up third parties that might have become Sega-exclusive and often having the better version of multiplats like Symphony of the Night. It was the PS2 juggernaut that killed any momentum the Dreamcast might have had despite Sega seemingly doing everything right with the Dreamcast. Maybe Sega's mistakes were so bad that even the N64 would have been able to completely trounce the Saturn on its own, but that's a counterfactual which there's no way to prove.



I personally cannot see any situation where the DC would have been successful. My bother, as an example, was a huge Sega fan... but after the CD, 32x and Saturn he was just done with Sega. Sega really killed themselves with too much hardware with too little support. It was poor corporate management for their brand.



We also had Bernie Stolar who didn't do much in Sega of America, he said the Sega Saturn is not the future. If we had a better american running the Sega Saturn we would of gotten probably several japanese ports being made into NTSC america. He was another reason that massively hurt Sega.

Bernie hates RPGS aswell.

Last edited by SegaHeart - on 14 April 2022

Cute and honest Sega Saturn fan, also noone should buy Sega grrrr, Sega for life.

Bernie Stolar hurt the Sega Saturn.

Last edited by SegaHeart - on 14 April 2022

Cute and honest Sega Saturn fan, also noone should buy Sega grrrr, Sega for life.

SegaHeart said:

We also had Bernie Stolar who didn't do much in Sega of America, he said the Sega Saturn is not the future. If we had a better american running the Sega Saturn we would of gotten probably several japanese ports being made into NTSC america. He was another reason that massively hurt Sega.

Bernie Stolar rejected all the capcom great fighting games in america.he's worser than Chris Chan only Ken Penders is hated most.

I don’t think Capcom fighting games would have helped the Saturn much - Capcom had glutted its own market to the point where its fighting games weren’t really selling, plus people were a lot more interested in Tekken than SF.

Stolar was pretty notorious for his animosity towards RPGs. It’s been said that he refused to localize the Arc the Lad games when he was with Sony. He viewed them as huge wastes of money and resources. Working Designs complained a lot about how difficult to work with he was. Glad he wasn’t around when they were localizing Final Fantasy VII.