By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Which competitor is more responsible for the demise of Sega?

 

Who is most responsible for Sega’s switch to 3rd Party?

Microsoft 5 6.58%
 
Nintendo 6 7.89%
 
Sony 65 85.53%
 
Total:76
SanAndreasX said:
SegaHeart said:

We also had Bernie Stolar who didn't do much in Sega of America, he said the Sega Saturn is not the future. If we had a better american running the Sega Saturn we would of gotten probably several japanese ports being made into NTSC america. He was another reason that massively hurt Sega.

Bernie Stolar rejected all the capcom great fighting games in america.he's worser than Chris Chan only Ken Penders is hated most.

I don’t think Capcom fighting games would have helped the Saturn much - Capcom had glutted its own market to the point where its fighting games weren’t really selling, plus people were a lot more interested in Tekken than SF.

Stolar was pretty notorious for his animosity towards RPGs. It’s been said that he refused to localize the Arc the Lad games when he was with Sony. He viewed them as huge wastes of money and resources. Working Designs complained a lot about how difficult to work with he was. Glad he wasn’t around when they were localizing Final Fantasy VII. 

He hates RPGS, and hates 2D games, Fighting games, Shoot'em ups, he was fired before the dreamcast launch in 1999 in america.

Last edited by SegaHeart - on 14 April 2022

Cute and honest Sega Saturn fan, also noone should buy Sega grrrr, Sega for life.

Around the Network

One of the issues I had with the DC was the controller, which was god awful. And the memory cards were a gimmick at best.



I'm reiterating a comment my first and only copy and paste from another read number 1 also $200 price tag in america made Sega in the red read the rest of the numbered comment

  1. Price - The system was supposed to be sold at $249.99. At the last minute, Bernard Stolar announced the price as $199.99. This is a considerable drop, meaning SEGA would take a bigger hit per every Dreamcast sold, pushing them further into the red.

  2. EA dropping support - EA was (and still is) one of the largest 3rd party publishers, with a wealth of popular IP's. EA would not support the Dreamcast, meaning the console lost titles like FIFA, which are immensely popular. SEGA did provide alternatives but for some, they would just go where the IP is.

  3. Lack of DVD - One of the driving factors for the PS2's immense popularity is that it was also a cost effective way of getting the then brand new DVD format. The PS2 was cheaper than pretty much all dedicated DVD players on the market, meaning it could attract consumers who were simply looking to purchase a DVD player as well. SEGA considered a DVD player for the Dreamcast but it would not be as cheap/easy to implement as Sony (who were actively involved in the formats development). SEGA instead went with the modem for the Dreamcast and created the GD-ROM format, which was inferior to DVD.

  4. GD-ROM - The GD-ROM held less storage than the DVD format used by the PS2. GD-ROM discs typically could hold 1.2GB of data vs the DVD's 4-7GB. This meant that games had to be smaller to fit on the discs. The lack of disc storage also was an issue for the Gamecube's mini disc format, which saw entire game modes cut in some of its third party titles.

  5. Piracy - The Dreamcast did not require any form of modification (at least for the majority of the models out there) in order to play burned discs. You could easily burn a game to a CD and play it on your Dreamcast. Whilst this has benefited the Dreamcast homebrew community in the long term, it is catastrophic for games developers/publishers. From their perspective, developing and selling a game on the Dreamcast was a huge risk since it likely would be pirated almost immediately, meaning lower ROI (Return on Investment).

  6. Poor relations with retailers - SEGA burned a lot of relationships they had with a number of retailers with the surprise launch of the Saturn. One high profile example is KB Toys, infuriated by SEGA's surprise launch, they refused to stock any SEGA consoles again. This would mean less available stores for the Dreamcast to be seen/available for purchase.

  7. Production issues - Early on in the Dreamcast's launch, SEGA were unable to supply enough consoles to meet the demand primarily due to lack of available parts to manufacture the console because of a supplier issue (I forget which part exactly). These early sales could have been crucial to the Dreamcast's success.

  8. Lack of buttons/analog stick on controller - The Dreamcast lacked the number of available buttons (10 + 1 analog) that the original Dualanalog/Dualshock (14 + 2 analog sticks) controller had, which became the main controller of the original Playstation and later the PS2. This would make some games difficult to port to the Dreamcast due to the lack of available buttons/analog stick. It was also somewhat bulky compared to the competition.

  9. PS2 Backwards compatibility - The PS2 would support the vast majority of original PlayStation titles, meaning for many consumers, you would not have to get rid of your old collection and could continue to play your old titles on the new console. For newcomers to the PS2, it meant they could also revisit the PS1's games library without having to buy a PS1. This was a huge advantage - the PS1 was the overwhelming winner of the 5th generation (Over 100 million sold), massively outselling the Saturn (9.26 million) and N64 (32.92 million), many consumers simply opted to wait for the PS2 instead of jumping in early with the Dreamcast. There was no viable way for the Dreamcast to support the Saturn's library.

  10. Marketing - Sony's marketing was able to successfully convince people that the PS2 was some kind of 'super gaming' machine. Some of this was true but not entirely honest. For example, Sony advertised the PS2's ability to display 75 million Polygons vs the Dreamcast's 3-6 million. On the surface this is true, but when you dig deeper, the PS2's figure is flat, untextured polygons (basically not in a real game) whilst the Dreamcast figure was representative of in-game scenarios. The actual PS2 figure is closer to 10-25 million. Technically Sony was not lying but it cleverly doesn't tell the full story to maximise impact.

  11. The Saturn's sudden discontinuation and disappearance from shelves worldwide - SEGA discontinued the Saturn worldwide in 1997, 1 whole year before the Japanese launch of the Dreamcast and 2 years before the worldwide launch in 1999. This left SEGA without a market presence for 1-2 years, which is a colossal mistake. To the general consumer purchasing video games at this time, having no SEGA presence on the store shelves (leaving only Sony and Nintendo) would lead to decreased brand awareness in the mass market. Sure, the dedicated gaming community would be aware of SEGA but don't forget, gaming wasn't as mainstream back then as it is today.



Cute and honest Sega Saturn fan, also noone should buy Sega grrrr, Sega for life.

Illusion said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

Yeah, I agree that Sega was only real competition for Nintendo for one generation.  I've never played a 3D Sonic game, but it's obvious that they weren't received nearly as well as their 2D counterparts.  However, the main point I was making is that, in terms of first party output, Sonic was the closest competitor that Nintendo ever had.  The Sonic games were the best games of the 16-bit generation, but I do think the SNES had more S-tier and A-tier games than the Genesis did.  This is mostly because I think the SNES had better third party support.  I mean, what does Phantasy Star 4 get compared to?  Final Fantasy 6.  I personally think Final Fantasy 6 is a better game, but Nintendo wasn't making RPGs that were as good as either one.  If you strip away all games made by third party companies (including things like Super Mario RPG), then I think Sega and Nintendo are really close in the 16-bit era.  They both made their share of great games, and sometimes I would give the win to Sega (e.g. Sonic, Shining Force) and sometimes I would give the win to Nintendo (e.g. Zelda), and there are other games that don't have a good first party counterpart on the other system (e.g. Metroid, Punch Out, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, etc...).

You know, I really think that Sony prematurely disrupted the contest between Sega and Nintendo.  I am not certain that the Dreamcast would have been beaten so easily by Nintendo if Sony was not in the picture.  I think that Nintendo would have won, but the Gamecube would have lost market share compared to previous generations and Sega would have still been in the race.

Nintendo was so weak in the latter N64 and Gamecube eras.  Really, from about 1999 to 2006, Nintendo's home console market was facing the darkest period since the NES other than the Wii U era.  Honestly, in a lot of ways the Gamecube painted an even darker picture for Nintendo's home console market than the Wii U because the Wii U basically only failed because of poor hardware, the Nintendo brand was still strong and popular.  That said, during the Gamecube era, Nintendo had great hardware and games but gamers were rejecting the brand.  Millennial gamer kids were growing up and were looking for something more mature than what Nintendo could offer and third parties were just done with Nintendo.  Sega has always been a bit edgier than Nintendo and western third parties definitely had a better relationship with Sega back then compared to Nintendo.  Also, while the GCN had decent RPG's, some of the best ones were from Sega (Skies of Arcadia, Phantasy Star Online).  I am sure that if was the GCN vs. Dreamcast, the DC would have been the RPG console and likely would have rocked the market with its versions of GTA3, Grand Tourismo 3, Final Fantasy X while the GCN would have still been struggling with it's "kiddie" image.

Maybe this should be it's own thread, but in my opinion if Sony was not in the picture, the 6th generation would have looked something like:

- Gamecube: 50 million

- Dreamcast: 40 million

-XBox: 70 million

What would have happened if Sony had never entered the market?  Not sure, so I'll come back to this in a minute.  However, I do think if the Dreamcast had a normal lifespan for a console (i.e. Sega had handled their financials better), then the Dreamcast would have ended up ahead of both the Gamecube and the XBox by a little.  (And of course the PS2 would still have clobbered them all.)  The Dreamcast had a strong start and sold around 13m in 2 years.  That 2-year game library looks pretty good to me too.  I think it could have outdone both the Gamecube and XBox, since neither of them sold too well either.

What about if Sony had never entered the market?  At that point it would have been up to the third party companies to play kingmaker.  I'm not sure how that would have gone down.  Nintendo was staying with cartridges, but Sega screwed up the launch of the Saturn pretty badly.  Who would third parties have chosen?  I'm not sure, but my guess is that some would have gone with Sega and some with Nintendo (kind of like the 16-bit era).  In a situation like this I think the N64 beats the Saturn, but the Dreamcast beats the Gamecube.  However, if most third parties had backed one system, then that system would have ended up the winner.



If Sony never entered the market Microsoft likely never would have as well. Their motivation to create the Xbox was the fear that Playstation consoles would hurt the PC market.



Around the Network
Chrkeller said:

I personally cannot see any situation where the DC would have been successful. My bother, as an example, was a huge Sega fan... but after the CD, 32x and Saturn he was just done with Sega. Sega really killed themselves with too much hardware with too little support. It was poor corporate management for their brand.

Yep Sega was already making mistakes with 32X and Sega CD... but without Playstation they may have planned better for Saturn, get better support and survive that gen for a better release of dreamcast, but yes all faults lie within Sega.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

SegaHeart said:

I'm reiterating a comment my first and only copy and paste from another read number 1 also $200 price tag in america made Sega in the red read the rest of the numbered comment

  1. Price - The system was supposed to be sold at $249.99. At the last minute, Bernard Stolar announced the price as $199.99. This is a considerable drop, meaning SEGA would take a bigger hit per every Dreamcast sold, pushing them further into the red.

  2. EA dropping support - EA was (and still is) one of the largest 3rd party publishers, with a wealth of popular IP's. EA would not support the Dreamcast, meaning the console lost titles like FIFA, which are immensely popular. SEGA did provide alternatives but for some, they would just go where the IP is.

  3. Lack of DVD - One of the driving factors for the PS2's immense popularity is that it was also a cost effective way of getting the then brand new DVD format. The PS2 was cheaper than pretty much all dedicated DVD players on the market, meaning it could attract consumers who were simply looking to purchase a DVD player as well. SEGA considered a DVD player for the Dreamcast but it would not be as cheap/easy to implement as Sony (who were actively involved in the formats development). SEGA instead went with the modem for the Dreamcast and created the GD-ROM format, which was inferior to DVD.

  4. GD-ROM - The GD-ROM held less storage than the DVD format used by the PS2. GD-ROM discs typically could hold 1.2GB of data vs the DVD's 4-7GB. This meant that games had to be smaller to fit on the discs. The lack of disc storage also was an issue for the Gamecube's mini disc format, which saw entire game modes cut in some of its third party titles.

  5. Piracy - The Dreamcast did not require any form of modification (at least for the majority of the models out there) in order to play burned discs. You could easily burn a game to a CD and play it on your Dreamcast. Whilst this has benefited the Dreamcast homebrew community in the long term, it is catastrophic for games developers/publishers. From their perspective, developing and selling a game on the Dreamcast was a huge risk since it likely would be pirated almost immediately, meaning lower ROI (Return on Investment).

  6. Poor relations with retailers - SEGA burned a lot of relationships they had with a number of retailers with the surprise launch of the Saturn. One high profile example is KB Toys, infuriated by SEGA's surprise launch, they refused to stock any SEGA consoles again. This would mean less available stores for the Dreamcast to be seen/available for purchase.

  7. Production issues - Early on in the Dreamcast's launch, SEGA were unable to supply enough consoles to meet the demand primarily due to lack of available parts to manufacture the console because of a supplier issue (I forget which part exactly). These early sales could have been crucial to the Dreamcast's success.

  8. Lack of buttons/analog stick on controller - The Dreamcast lacked the number of available buttons (10 + 1 analog) that the original Dualanalog/Dualshock (14 + 2 analog sticks) controller had, which became the main controller of the original Playstation and later the PS2. This would make some games difficult to port to the Dreamcast due to the lack of available buttons/analog stick. It was also somewhat bulky compared to the competition.

  9. PS2 Backwards compatibility - The PS2 would support the vast majority of original PlayStation titles, meaning for many consumers, you would not have to get rid of your old collection and could continue to play your old titles on the new console. For newcomers to the PS2, it meant they could also revisit the PS1's games library without having to buy a PS1. This was a huge advantage - the PS1 was the overwhelming winner of the 5th generation (Over 100 million sold), massively outselling the Saturn (9.26 million) and N64 (32.92 million), many consumers simply opted to wait for the PS2 instead of jumping in early with the Dreamcast. There was no viable way for the Dreamcast to support the Saturn's library.

  10. Marketing - Sony's marketing was able to successfully convince people that the PS2 was some kind of 'super gaming' machine. Some of this was true but not entirely honest. For example, Sony advertised the PS2's ability to display 75 million Polygons vs the Dreamcast's 3-6 million. On the surface this is true, but when you dig deeper, the PS2's figure is flat, untextured polygons (basically not in a real game) whilst the Dreamcast figure was representative of in-game scenarios. The actual PS2 figure is closer to 10-25 million. Technically Sony was not lying but it cleverly doesn't tell the full story to maximise impact.

  11. The Saturn's sudden discontinuation and disappearance from shelves worldwide - SEGA discontinued the Saturn worldwide in 1997, 1 whole year before the Japanese launch of the Dreamcast and 2 years before the worldwide launch in 1999. This left SEGA without a market presence for 1-2 years, which is a colossal mistake. To the general consumer purchasing video games at this time, having no SEGA presence on the store shelves (leaving only Sony and Nintendo) would lead to decreased brand awareness in the mass market. Sure, the dedicated gaming community would be aware of SEGA but don't forget, gaming wasn't as mainstream back then as it is today.

Will point some items I disagree with

3 - PS2 didn't sell as replacement of DVDs as PS3 didn't sell as replacement of BDs... sure having the disc helped promoting, but PS2 from data posted in VGC was never really cheaper than the DVD players and PS3 was cheaper for like 2 years or less. and when looking for their attach ratio you can see that most bought because of the games, with the DVD being just at most another positive aspect to balance decision.

4 - At the time the size of the disc was a issue more for cutscenes and audio files so good devs could do with the regular size, but yes no good reason for a smaller disk that doesn't cost less or perform better.

5 - Piracy wasn't really a big issue from data posted on VGC long ago, the attach ratio of Dreamcast was very similar to other consoles, so we can't fault it for the financial hoes of Sega (I would say bad management and poor investment were more likely culprit, like making of games being to expensive for the amount sold see Shenmue for example).

9 - BC wasn't really something that pushed sales, SNES and Genesis had no BC and that didn't hold sales back, PS3 had BC for 2 gens while X360 didn't had and it didn't matter as well. BC is more like a token point for most costumers.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Sony, 100% positive about it, I lived it all back then as a teenager, I got the dreamcast and all the friends I had who where into gaming were just waiting for the PS2. 

Dreamcast was fantastic, and it changed my life with games like Virtua Tennis, Shenmue, Sonic Adventure, Sega Rally, Skies of Arcadia, Resident evil code veronica, soul calibur, crazy taxi, Metropolis street racer, jet set radio, Phantasy star online, Chu Chu rocket and more.

It was my all time favourite console due to the great memories I have, the huge jump in graphics,  the amazing fun games, to this day Skies of arcadia is still my all time favourite RPG, and Chu Chu is still my all time favourite puzzler, and Phantasy star was my first ever play online, and virtua tennis is still my all time favourite sports game, and soul calibur is still my all time favourite fighter, and sonic adventure is still my all time favourite sonic game, and shenmue is still my all time favourite investigating adventure game, and metropolis street racer is still the most fun I have ever had in a racer, great music too.

I remember buying a ps2 after and being so disappointing there was nothing fun to play until I bought final fantasy X.

And that's one of the many reasons why sony won, because they had stuff like Tekken, GT, Metal gear solid, Crash bandicoot, spyro, Silent Hill, Driver, wipeout, and when stuff like Metal gear 2, Ico, Devil may cry, GT2, GTA 3 and many others were announced it was madness back then.

If you only take the first couple years in the market for each console, the dreamcast wins by a long slide, but the damage was already done with the sega saturn, while sony had a lot of hype coming from the PS1.

The fact that the PS2 was to be able to play all PS1 games natively and the fact it was the first console with a DVD player was a huge deal back then, also better graphics, I remember those were the 3 biggest reasons people were giving for waiting to buy a ps2 instead of dreamcast.



I'm pretty sure the PS2 killed Sega, and it almost killed Nintendo if it weren't for the gameboy and pokemon.

Nintendo somehow recovered thanks to some very good fortune, but the PS2 did some major damage at the time. Now the top 3 sit comfortably, who knows what will happen next.



Pretty sure I answered the question correctly in the first response guys.