By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Digital Foundry - Dirt 5

Pemalite said:
Hynad said:

I’m sure you already know that, but since you keep arguing that we somehow already know everything about the console, Cerny did not mention every single feature the system is capable of, and the teardown didn’t provide much either.

Why you keep arguing this stance about the PS5 is peculiar.

I'm not arguing about this "particular" stance in regards to the Playstation 5. It's the same stance regardless of console.
I am a PC gamer first and foremost, I have no brand loyalty to the consoles.

So by your logic... If 7 years into the consoles cycle and there is no mention of variable rate shading, can we still assume the console has it "hidden away"?
Where do we draw the line on where we can discount a certain feature being present in the hardware?
The Playstation 3 was never mentioned to have a Tessellation unit, but the Xbox 360 did have that technology, do we still assume that the Playstation 3 might have the technology because Sony never discussed it? No. No we do not.

I get that not every feature will be mentioned, but you generally assume large and important features will be mentioned and variable rate shading is one such feature that is gaining prominence on the PC due to the efficiency gains it brings forth.

Digital Foundry even goes on the record to assert that there is little/no evidence of variable rate shading.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-ps5-reveal-does-it-deliver-the-next-gen-dream

The Playstation 5's Graphics API's do actually support the feature as well. (I.E. Vulkan and OpenGL.)
RDNA1 doesn't support the feature, RDNA2 does support the feature. - You need both software and hardware support to leverage the hardware feature.

The feature can be done entirely in software if a developer wished to go down that path outside of hardware/API. (Unlikely.)

That is my position... And that is to assume the feature isn't present because there is no evidence of it, there has been no discussion by Sony about it.
And I am happy to change my view when new evidence/statement from Sony comes forward regarding it.

I hold the same position in regards to the existence of God, that because there is no evidence of God, I will discard the idea that God exists until such a time it can be proven empirically. It's logical.

To equate 7 years after release to 7 days is kinda strange don't you think?

The teardown from Sony didn't gave a single HW information. Teardown from any other site also wouldn't be able to "teardown" the APU to see what is available inside. So really we are at did Sony said it have or didn't, and if they didn't is the feature there or not? Thus we can't really confirm anything, at most we can say that it is more likely that it doesn't have until proven otherwise.

Also since we don't have access to PS5 specific tool (as Vulkan and OpenGL are computer tools) we don't know if a specific feature is available or not.

And per JRPGfan devs have confirmed.

Variable Rate Shading is nice for saving cycles, but VRS’ optimization capability doesn’t hold a handle to the Geometry Engine’s capabilities. VRS without GE means you’re still processing vertices you can/should eliminate in earlier stages to begin with. More free compute/memory.

— Matt Hargett (@syke) March 19, 2020



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
JRPGfan said:
DonFerrari said:

Sony have been very silent with PS5. Besides SSD and Tempest Chip they have been very brief on everything else during the reveal. So we can't really be sure of what is there or not, sure since if they haven't specifically talked about it then it's fair to assume it isn't in the PS5. Although I think oodle textures was mentioned as is equivalent to VRS right?

A activison dev, has come out and said the PS5 has VRS.

Here is a software engineer, that worked on the PS5:

PS5 can use VRS, and can eliminate processing vertices, in earlier stages to free up compute/memory.
The geometry engine, in the PS5 does have the capabilities to do this.

Its just MS used it as a marketing term, and said "we support VRS", while sony hasn't spoken about it, and only a few devs have.
Have we seen VRS used in any games yet? No idea.
When will it start mattering? No idea.

Thats something even digital foundry said in a previous video, not sure wich. But its baked into the geometry engine of the PS5 so they probably have so slight differences and they dont call it VRS. MS runing with their PR is the whole reason we are in this current online hysteria about PS5 matching and sometimes outperforming the xbox. So not taking PR into consideration would be the wisest approach. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:
JRPGfan said:

A activison dev, has come out and said the PS5 has VRS.

Here is a software engineer, that worked on the PS5:

PS5 can use VRS, and can eliminate processing vertices, in earlier stages to free up compute/memory.
The geometry engine, in the PS5 does have the capabilities to do this.

Its just MS used it as a marketing term, and said "we support VRS", while sony hasn't spoken about it, and only a few devs have.
Have we seen VRS used in any games yet? No idea.
When will it start mattering? No idea.

Thats something even digital foundry said in a previous video, not sure wich. But its baked into the geometry engine of the PS5 so they probably have so slight differences and they dont call it VRS. MS runing with their PR is the whole reason we are in this current online hysteria about PS5 matching and sometimes outperforming the xbox. So not taking PR into consideration would be the wisest approach. 

So it would be like one putting 5 features and the other 20 but the 20 are actually the same 5 but diced apart to fill a box?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
eva01beserk said:

Thats something even digital foundry said in a previous video, not sure wich. But its baked into the geometry engine of the PS5 so they probably have so slight differences and they dont call it VRS. MS runing with their PR is the whole reason we are in this current online hysteria about PS5 matching and sometimes outperforming the xbox. So not taking PR into consideration would be the wisest approach. 

So it would be like one putting 5 features and the other 20 but the 20 are actually the same 5 but diced apart to fill a box?

Maybe. Will just get the same result at the end. All I know is that PR is just PR. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

d21lewis said:
Manlytears said:

First, i come in peace...

Second...
Have you ever played Astro Bot VR? Amazing game, uses VR in such amazing way, and yeah i feel like at some point Nintendo will invest in Virtual Reality to create a new Mario experience. Also, yeah, many will claim Nintendo is the one that created the concept of a 3D platformer combined with Virtual Reality, will claim things like "Only Nintendo can be this creative" or "nintendo did this first"...

Also, Never said Mario isn't the most iconic platformer, or one of the originators of modern  platforme. I'm just saying the Astro Bot VR created something amazing and new... and that Nintendo will copy it at some point.

Note: you most likely think i'm talking about "Astro's Playroom for Ps5", it's a understandable mistake. I take no offences on your rather aggressive comments. Be at peace.

I love Astro Bot Rescue Mission. It's actually my  #34 "best game of all time". However, take away the vr and it's just Crash Bandicoot with some cool effects. It's a pretty basic platformer. I love vr. Being "in the world" adds something that you just can't get from looking at a screen (which is why RE7 is my #21 game!) but let's not get carried away here. 

You already have this scenario in your head that Nintendo is gonna rip this game off and take all the credit and that gamers are going to pretend Astro Bot never existed. Weird prediction...

Let me explain.
First, taking alway VR from Astro is, almost, like taking 3D from Mario 64, it ruins the magic. VR transforms the experience in an impressive way, as you said yourself, you feel like you are inside the game and controlling astro with a remote control, at the same time that you interact with the map with various tools to help astro cross obstacles, the experience is truly unique and original.

second, this term "rip off" should really be used more sparingly with video games. I mean, copying a successful model is not a bad thing, on the contrary, it is something that should be encouraged because it brings evolution to gender, the definitive proof that the "original concept" is something good and with room to evolve! I have no problem with the "possibility" of mario copying ideas introduced by Astro Bot, it would be like having problems with all the FPS that evolved the idea of ​​"OG the wolfenstein" or all the games that use the bases created by "OG Diablo ". my problem, in the form of a prediction, is in a different place.

The real "problem" of my prediction is the possibility of some Nintendo fans declaring that Nintendo is the creator of this concept. I am not aiming for all nintendo fans, I only point to those who give credit to Nintendo when it is not due, for example, Nintendo fans who argue that nintendo has introduced modern "Analog Sticks" and completely ignore Dual shock (sometimes even calling DS a "rip off") and disregard the fact that the design of the N64 Stick has nothing to do with modern controls!

Note: I swear, I will not discuss here questions about the merit "N64 vs DS, what is the origin of modern analogs sticks ...". I already had exhaustive discussions about the matter, it is an argument that has no end or use.

Note2: I wish you a good day.



Prediction: In 5 years Nintendo will Lauch a "Core Mario game"  very similar to Astro Bot. That said, many will Ignore Astro Bot existence and say Nintendo created this concept.

Around the Network
Manlytears said:
d21lewis said:

I love Astro Bot Rescue Mission. It's actually my  #34 "best game of all time". However, take away the vr and it's just Crash Bandicoot with some cool effects. It's a pretty basic platformer. I love vr. Being "in the world" adds something that you just can't get from looking at a screen (which is why RE7 is my #21 game!) but let's not get carried away here. 

You already have this scenario in your head that Nintendo is gonna rip this game off and take all the credit and that gamers are going to pretend Astro Bot never existed. Weird prediction...

Let me explain.
First, taking alway VR from Astro is, almost, like taking 3D from Mario 64, it ruins the magic. VR transforms the experience in an impressive way, as you said yourself, you feel like you are inside the game and controlling astro with a remote control, at the same time that you interact with the map with various tools to help astro cross obstacles, the experience is truly unique and original.

second, this term "rip off" should really be used more sparingly with video games. I mean, copying a successful model is not a bad thing, on the contrary, it is something that should be encouraged because it brings evolution to gender, the definitive proof that the "original concept" is something good and with room to evolve! I have no problem with the "possibility" of mario copying ideas introduced by Astro Bot, it would be like having problems with all the FPS that evolved the idea of ​​"OG the wolfenstein" or all the games that use the bases created by "OG Diablo ". my problem, in the form of a prediction, is in a different place.

The real "problem" of my prediction is the possibility of some Nintendo fans declaring that Nintendo is the creator of this concept. I am not aiming for all nintendo fans, I only point to those who give credit to Nintendo when it is not due, for example, Nintendo fans who argue that nintendo has introduced modern "Analog Sticks" and completely ignore Dual shock (sometimes even calling DS a "rip off") and disregard the fact that the design of the N64 Stick has nothing to do with modern controls!

Note: I swear, I will not discuss here questions about the merit "N64 vs DS, what is the origin of modern analogs sticks ...". I already had exhaustive discussions about the matter, it is an argument that has no end or use.

Note2: I wish you a good day.

Wait didn't the N64 controller come out before DS with analogue sticks? So it is quite easy to see what the truth of the situation is. Nintendo was the first one to create a controller with an analogue stick and the basic design is the one the industry has been using ever since. It's pretty open and shut for me rather than an argument that has no end. Nintendo dud it first that's clear and it's an analogue stick like any other that's clear. Where is the ambiguity here or room for debate?



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Manlytears said:
d21lewis said:

I love Astro Bot Rescue Mission. It's actually my  #34 "best game of all time". However, take away the vr and it's just Crash Bandicoot with some cool effects. It's a pretty basic platformer. I love vr. Being "in the world" adds something that you just can't get from looking at a screen (which is why RE7 is my #21 game!) but let's not get carried away here. 

You already have this scenario in your head that Nintendo is gonna rip this game off and take all the credit and that gamers are going to pretend Astro Bot never existed. Weird prediction...

Let me explain.
First, taking alway VR from Astro is, almost, like taking 3D from Mario 64, it ruins the magic. VR transforms the experience in an impressive way, as you said yourself, you feel like you are inside the game and controlling astro with a remote control, at the same time that you interact with the map with various tools to help astro cross obstacles, the experience is truly unique and original.

second, this term "rip off" should really be used more sparingly with video games. I mean, copying a successful model is not a bad thing, on the contrary, it is something that should be encouraged because it brings evolution to gender, the definitive proof that the "original concept" is something good and with room to evolve! I have no problem with the "possibility" of mario copying ideas introduced by Astro Bot, it would be like having problems with all the FPS that evolved the idea of ​​"OG the wolfenstein" or all the games that use the bases created by "OG Diablo ". my problem, in the form of a prediction, is in a different place.

The real "problem" of my prediction is the possibility of some Nintendo fans declaring that Nintendo is the creator of this concept. I am not aiming for all nintendo fans, I only point to those who give credit to Nintendo when it is not due, for example, Nintendo fans who argue that nintendo has introduced modern "Analog Sticks" and completely ignore Dual shock (sometimes even calling DS a "rip off") and disregard the fact that the design of the N64 Stick has nothing to do with modern controls!

Note: I swear, I will not discuss here questions about the merit "N64 vs DS, what is the origin of modern analogs sticks ...". I already had exhaustive discussions about the matter, it is an argument that has no end or use.

Note2: I wish you a good day.

Don't forget that for the DS discussion we need to ignore the fact that there was already analog stick in plenty of gaming devices before N64, and that Sony wouldn't be that fast to not only copy Nintendo but to change the concept, test, approve and launch on their console in that timeframe.

 

Yes the modern console layout is a lot closer to N64 right?

Last edited by DonFerrari - on 24 November 2020

duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Manlytears said:
d21lewis said:

I love Astro Bot Rescue Mission. It's actually my  #34 "best game of all time". However, take away the vr and it's just Crash Bandicoot with some cool effects. It's a pretty basic platformer. I love vr. Being "in the world" adds something that you just can't get from looking at a screen (which is why RE7 is my #21 game!) but let's not get carried away here. 

You already have this scenario in your head that Nintendo is gonna rip this game off and take all the credit and that gamers are going to pretend Astro Bot never existed. Weird prediction...

Let me explain.
First, taking alway VR from Astro is, almost, like taking 3D from Mario 64, it ruins the magic. VR transforms the experience in an impressive way, as you said yourself, you feel like you are inside the game and controlling astro with a remote control, at the same time that you interact with the map with various tools to help astro cross obstacles, the experience is truly unique and original.

Moss already had a similar concept before Astro Bot. Just saying... the "unique and original" is not as unique and original as you make it out to be. 



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

Peh said:
Manlytears said:

Let me explain.
First, taking alway VR from Astro is, almost, like taking 3D from Mario 64, it ruins the magic. VR transforms the experience in an impressive way, as you said yourself, you feel like you are inside the game and controlling astro with a remote control, at the same time that you interact with the map with various tools to help astro cross obstacles, the experience is truly unique and original.

Moss already had a similar concept before Astro Bot. Just saying... the "unique and original" is not as unique and original as you make it out to be. 

The basis of your argument is impeccable, Moss came first and is undoubtedly a "VR Platformer". Ihave to admit that Moss delivered VR platform before Astro, but... here is my point.

1. Moss and Astro are both 2018 games, they both had similar devellopment period, both teams came with this concept of VR platform at similar time, that said, there is no room to say " this game is a copy of that game". The space of time that separate the games is just 8 months. That said, both games came whit a "truly unique and original experience", IMHO.


2. Moss is more like a Puzzle game first  whit platform elements second, it's a bit different from what you see whit platform games like Mario and Astro. That's why i'm comparing Astro and Mario, they are much closer in similarities. Moss, while great, have a different style.


3. As i said before, Moss and Astro both make the first steps at VR platform, but they are vastly different. If you have played both you will clearly see that there is a lot of difference between the game proposals and elements.

4. Peridot is so fu#@#$ cute, i loved the Cat in your avatar, have a nice day. 

edit: i will not talk about Astrobot or any other offtopic subject. I have already made too much off-topic talk on this thread.

Last edited by Manlytears - on 24 November 2020

Prediction: In 5 years Nintendo will Lauch a "Core Mario game"  very similar to Astro Bot. That said, many will Ignore Astro Bot existence and say Nintendo created this concept.

Manlytears said:
d21lewis said:

I love Astro Bot Rescue Mission. It's actually my  #34 "best game of all time". However, take away the vr and it's just Crash Bandicoot with some cool effects. It's a pretty basic platformer. I love vr. Being "in the world" adds something that you just can't get from looking at a screen (which is why RE7 is my #21 game!) but let's not get carried away here. 

You already have this scenario in your head that Nintendo is gonna rip this game off and take all the credit and that gamers are going to pretend Astro Bot never existed. Weird prediction...

Let me explain.
First, taking alway VR from Astro is, almost, like taking 3D from Mario 64, it ruins the magic. VR transforms the experience in an impressive way, as you said yourself, you feel like you are inside the game and controlling astro with a remote control, at the same time that you interact with the map with various tools to help astro cross obstacles, the experience is truly unique and original.

second, this term "rip off" should really be used more sparingly with video games. I mean, copying a successful model is not a bad thing, on the contrary, it is something that should be encouraged because it brings evolution to gender, the definitive proof that the "original concept" is something good and with room to evolve! I have no problem with the "possibility" of mario copying ideas introduced by Astro Bot, it would be like having problems with all the FPS that evolved the idea of ​​"OG the wolfenstein" or all the games that use the bases created by "OG Diablo ". my problem, in the form of a prediction, is in a different place.

The real "problem" of my prediction is the possibility of some Nintendo fans declaring that Nintendo is the creator of this concept. I am not aiming for all nintendo fans, I only point to those who give credit to Nintendo when it is not due, for example, Nintendo fans who argue that nintendo has introduced modern "Analog Sticks" and completely ignore Dual shock (sometimes even calling DS a "rip off") and disregard the fact that the design of the N64 Stick has nothing to do with modern controls!

Note: I swear, I will not discuss here questions about the merit "N64 vs DS, what is the origin of modern analogs sticks ...". I already had exhaustive discussions about the matter, it is an argument that has no end or use.

Note2: I wish you a good day.

*Bolded* thanks!

As for the prior stuff, I agree. Everything builds off of what laid down before. That's cool. 

I got a PSVR the day it launched. I was already in love with the idea of it before I ever got my hands on one and I couldn't have been happier with the final product. One of the things I remember vividly was a quote from a developer saying how excited they were to be working with vr because "old ideas seem new again".

I guess this is my long winded way of saying that if Nintendo (or any company) made a platformer, there really aren't a lot of ways they could do it. They wouldn't be ripping off Astrobot, all. They'd just be doing what they have been doing for decades, only in vr-- even if Astro Bot Rescue Mission never existed . Just like how any vr racing game wouldn't be copying Gran Turismo VR (whatever it was called). They'd just be using the features that inherently come with the medium.

I don't know if I phrased this the way I wanted to. I'm at work and I'm really distracted right now. Hopefully I don't come off as attacking you and I guess this whole side discussion is off topic. But I hope you have a good day, too!

Last edited by d21lewis - on 24 November 2020

Twitter: @d21lewis