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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Digital Foundry - Dirt 5

Pemalite said:
Azzanation said:

@SvennoJ Not sure why we have screen tearing, its shameful considering we have had Vsync for decades now. The thread always changes, last gen was 1080p, mid way it was 4k and now its 60fps. Whatever does what better, the story always changes.

I tend to avoid vsync, so I am glad it's not there.
It introduces input lag... And if your framerate drops enough... It can take you from say... 45fps down to 30 instantly which can look jarring.
It's great if you are just hovering at like 33fps and want it locked at 30.

My displays have freesync, so it's a non-issue.

I will personally opt for a little bit of screen tearing over vsync, but that's just me personally.

I only turn vsync off if it affects the mouse usage (like it did in witcher 2 on PC for example, bad coding)

It's a personal preference, I guess console games could simply offer the option, preferably a system wide setting. I rather have a stable picture with lower fps than 2 parts of different frames on the screen. I play on a 144hz screen so the drop isn't that bad and v-sync makes it either 72, 48, 36, 28.8 or 24 fps. Actually I play at 20.6, 18, 16, 14.4 fps in FS 2020, maximizing fidelity. At 144hz it's only 6.9 ms to wait for the next opportunity.

Input lag shouldn't be an issue with v-sync (I only had that problem with TW2), controller polling and engine updates should be (and usually are) independent of output frame rate. But yep, you do have to 'wait' up to 16.7 ms longer to see the result if a 60fps game on a 60hz screen drops a frame. That still looks less annoying to me than a big tear at the top of the screen.

Didn't most games have soft lock last gen? Cap at 30, but allowed to tear briefly when going under? Is that the current problem, that the brief going under is not that brief anymore or is v-sync completely off.



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DonFerrari said:

Sony have been very silent with PS5. Besides SSD and Tempest Chip they have been very brief on everything else during the reveal. So we can't really be sure of what is there or not, sure since if they haven't specifically talked about it then it's fair to assume it isn't in the PS5. Although I think oodle textures was mentioned as is equivalent to VRS right?

Sony or more specifically Cerny gave out a ton of information and we have had teardowns since.

SvennoJ said:

I only turn vsync off if it affects the mouse usage (like it did in witcher 2 on PC for example, bad coding)

It's a personal preference, I guess console games could simply offer the option, preferably a system wide setting. I rather have a stable picture with lower fps than 2 parts of different frames on the screen. I play on a 144hz screen so the drop isn't that bad and v-sync makes it either 72, 48, 36, 28.8 or 24 fps. Actually I play at 20.6, 18, 16, 14.4 fps in FS 2020, maximizing fidelity. At 144hz it's only 6.9 ms to wait for the next opportunity.

Input lag shouldn't be an issue with v-sync (I only had that problem with TW2), controller polling and engine updates should be (and usually are) independent of output frame rate. But yep, you do have to 'wait' up to 16.7 ms longer to see the result if a 60fps game on a 60hz screen drops a frame. That still looks less annoying to me than a big tear at the top of the screen.

Didn't most games have soft lock last gen? Cap at 30, but allowed to tear briefly when going under? Is that the current problem, that the brief going under is not that brief anymore or is v-sync completely off.

Really game dependent.
We aren't in the era where console gamers were applauding the visuals while running a game at 25fps like in the 7th gen.

Vsync introduces input lag because it delays frames from being shown on screen, thus increasing the time when you input something and when it appears on screen, the amount of input lag will be dependent on the game engine, it's performance and how the rendering pipeline is setup.

But without a doubt, Vsync always introduces input lag.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

Sony have been very silent with PS5. Besides SSD and Tempest Chip they have been very brief on everything else during the reveal. So we can't really be sure of what is there or not, sure since if they haven't specifically talked about it then it's fair to assume it isn't in the PS5. Although I think oodle textures was mentioned as is equivalent to VRS right?

Sony or more specifically Cerny gave out a ton of information and we have had teardowns since.

I’m sure you already know that, but since you keep arguing that we somehow already know everything about the console, Cerny did not mention every single feature the system is capable of, and the teardown didn’t provide much either.

Why you keep arguing this stance about the PS5 is peculiar.



Hynad said:
Pemalite said:

Sony or more specifically Cerny gave out a ton of information and we have had teardowns since.

I’m sure you already know that, but since you keep arguing that we somehow already know everything about the console, Cerny did not mention every single feature the system is capable of, and the teardown didn’t provide much either.

Why you keep arguing this stance about the PS5 is peculiar.

I'm not arguing about this "particular" stance in regards to the Playstation 5. It's the same stance regardless of console.
I am a PC gamer first and foremost, I have no brand loyalty to the consoles.

So by your logic... If 7 years into the consoles cycle and there is no mention of variable rate shading, can we still assume the console has it "hidden away"?
Where do we draw the line on where we can discount a certain feature being present in the hardware?
The Playstation 3 was never mentioned to have a Tessellation unit, but the Xbox 360 did have that technology, do we still assume that the Playstation 3 might have the technology because Sony never discussed it? No. No we do not.

I get that not every feature will be mentioned, but you generally assume large and important features will be mentioned and variable rate shading is one such feature that is gaining prominence on the PC due to the efficiency gains it brings forth.

Digital Foundry even goes on the record to assert that there is little/no evidence of variable rate shading.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-ps5-reveal-does-it-deliver-the-next-gen-dream

The Playstation 5's Graphics API's do actually support the feature as well. (I.E. Vulkan and OpenGL.)
RDNA1 doesn't support the feature, RDNA2 does support the feature. - You need both software and hardware support to leverage the hardware feature.

The feature can be done entirely in software if a developer wished to go down that path outside of hardware/API. (Unlikely.)

That is my position... And that is to assume the feature isn't present because there is no evidence of it, there has been no discussion by Sony about it.
And I am happy to change my view when new evidence/statement from Sony comes forward regarding it.

I hold the same position in regards to the existence of God, that because there is no evidence of God, I will discard the idea that God exists until such a time it can be proven empirically. It's logical.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Hynad said:

I’m sure you already know that, but since you keep arguing that we somehow already know everything about the console, Cerny did not mention every single feature the system is capable of, and the teardown didn’t provide much either.

Why you keep arguing this stance about the PS5 is peculiar.

I'm not arguing about this "particular" stance in regards to the Playstation 5. It's the same stance regardless of console.
I am a PC gamer first and foremost, I have no brand loyalty to the consoles.

So by your logic... If 7 years into the consoles cycle and there is no mention of variable rate shading, can we still assume the console has it "hidden away"?
Where do we draw the line on where we can discount a certain feature being present in the hardware?
The Playstation 3 was never mentioned to have a Tessellation unit, but the Xbox 360 did have that technology, do we still assume that the Playstation 3 might have the technology because Sony never discussed it? No. No we do not.

I get that not every feature will be mentioned, but you generally assume large and important features will be mentioned and variable rate shading is one such feature that is gaining prominence on the PC due to the efficiency gains it brings forth.

Digital Foundry even goes on the record to assert that there is little/no evidence of variable rate shading.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-ps5-reveal-does-it-deliver-the-next-gen-dream

The Playstation 5's Graphics API's do actually support the feature as well. (I.E. Vulkan and OpenGL.)
RDNA1 doesn't support the feature, RDNA2 does support the feature. - You need both software and hardware support to leverage the hardware feature.

The feature can be done entirely in software if a developer wished to go down that path outside of hardware/API. (Unlikely.)

That is my position... And that is to assume the feature isn't present because there is no evidence of it, there has been no discussion by Sony about it.
And I am happy to change my view when new evidence/statement from Sony comes forward regarding it.

I hold the same position in regards to the existence of God, that because there is no evidence of God, I will discard the idea that God exists until such a time it can be proven empirically. It's logical.

And... PS5 is RDNA2. So why do you question this? 



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Manlytears said:
OTBWY said:

At least the S allows for someone to put his/her game in rest mode and not crash.

Btw your sig is insane. Not positive insane, but insane insane. Assuming it's not a joke, you know Mario is the foundation of basically every modern platformer right?

First, i come in peace...

Second...
Have you ever played Astro Bot VR? Amazing game, uses VR in such amazing way, and yeah i feel like at some point Nintendo will invest in Virtual Reality to create a new Mario experience. Also, yeah, many will claim Nintendo is the one that created the concept of a 3D platformer combined with Virtual Reality, will claim things like "Only Nintendo can be this creative" or "nintendo did this first"...

Also, Never said Mario isn't the most iconic platformer, or one of the originators of modern  platforme. I'm just saying the Astro Bot VR created something amazing and new... and that Nintendo will copy it at some point.

Note: you most likely think i'm talking about "Astro's Playroom for Ps5", it's a understandable mistake. I take no offences on your rather aggressive comments. Be at peace.

I love Astro Bot Rescue Mission. It's actually my  #34 "best game of all time". However, take away the vr and it's just Crash Bandicoot with some cool effects. It's a pretty basic platformer. I love vr. Being "in the world" adds something that you just can't get from looking at a screen (which is why RE7 is my #21 game!) but let's not get carried away here. 

You already have this scenario in your head that Nintendo is gonna rip this game off and take all the credit and that gamers are going to pretend Astro Bot never existed. Weird prediction...



Twitter: @d21lewis

I would never guess the internet would be in such an uproar about a DF comparison for a mediocre cross-generation racing game. There will be 7 years of comparisons and better games as well. Not just talking about this topic. Just in general. Dirt 5 is not deserving of this much attention.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Leynos said:

I would never guess the internet would be in such an uproar about a DF comparison for a mediocre cross-generation racing game. There will be 7 years of comparisons and better games as well. Not just talking about this topic. Just in general. Dirt 5 is not deserving of this much attention.

Being somewhat controversial due to the performance and being a launch title has given this game the most attention I've seen any dirt game get. Crazy.



Manlytears said:
OTBWY said:

I don't need to play your glorified tech demo to assert that your claim is ridiculous. I mean, if I look at the game itself it looks very much ripped from Mario. Even moreso than the new Little Big Planet game. And no, adaptive triggers don't matter.

Edit: You mean the VR game. My mistake. But.. still applies. VR doesn't matter. 

i will have to agree with your edit., it's fair... VR doesn't matter right now.
For now VR is almost irrelevant, however I believe that  the technology has a future. When that future arrives, I believe that Nintendo will copy the concept created by Astro bot VR.
Also, I am happy to clarify any misunderstandings. And yes, "Astro's Playroom", despite being a good game (short, but still very good), does not compare with Mario, saying something different, in fact, is insane.

What do you mean by "Nintendo will copy the concept created by Astro Bot VR?"

Do you mean like Astro Bot copied the core concept of 3D jump and run defined by Mario 64 and place it in VR? Please explain.



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

DonFerrari said:

Sony have been very silent with PS5. Besides SSD and Tempest Chip they have been very brief on everything else during the reveal. So we can't really be sure of what is there or not, sure since if they haven't specifically talked about it then it's fair to assume it isn't in the PS5. Although I think oodle textures was mentioned as is equivalent to VRS right?

A activison dev, has come out and said the PS5 has VRS.

Here is a software engineer, that worked on the PS5:

PS5 can use VRS, and can eliminate processing vertices, in earlier stages to free up compute/memory.
The geometry engine, in the PS5 does have the capabilities to do this.

Its just MS used it as a marketing term, and said "we support VRS", while sony hasn't spoken about it, and only a few devs have.
Have we seen VRS used in any games yet? No idea.
When will it start mattering? No idea.