Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Phil Spencer confident after seeing PS5 presentation - Gamelab 2020 interview

How do you think MS will perform at the July presentation?

MS will be in a league of its own 5 6.25%
 
MS will do better than the PS5 presentation 14 17.50%
 
MS will do as good as the PS5 presentation 13 16.25%
 
MS will do less well than... 48 60.00%
 
Total:80
DonFerrari said:
Dulfite said:

Please list out all the AAA, brand new, exclusive, full fledged games PS5 had coming in the first 6 months.

We obviously have to wait for MS's July show to know what they have coming and then I can do a fair comparison. Whichever had more quantity of those types of experiences will probably get my purchase. I don't care about "since 7th gen." I didn't own either device last gen so obviously neither appealed to me terribly. But this gen I'm open minded if one can really impress me. So far I'm not at all impressed by Sony. Now I have to wait for MS presentation. If theirs is a letdown as well then I may just not buy this gen yet.

MS already informed that their games for the next 2 years will be crossgen. So no matter how many brand new exclusive AAA games come to PS5, it will be higher than XSX which will be 0 by own admission of Xbox.

And considering the historic of both companies you'll see the amount.

So it really isn't about the amount of AAA, it is really the company that pleases you.

Crossplay doesn't bother me. As long as it is a new game that's a new game and if it doesn't come to another company's device (PS5, Switch) then it's an exclusive in my book. So it won't be O to a gamer like me who doesn't even own an Xbox One. I do game on my PC currently but am looking to minimize that, hence my interest in next gen.



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goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

I agree that at least MS is being very transparent. But tell me honestly now, don't you hope that whatever they'll show in July will blow your socks off and finally see things that weren't possible on current gen? Maybe the May even was honest, but it also got people wondering why they should upgrade in the first place.

Of course I hope so. I’d even bet that a few big games we will see will fall outside the cross gen window. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

We don't know exactly how long. But since he asked about true new exclusives then it won't have on the first year at least.

Do you think with 1/3 of the power it will be as good as PS5?

You are putting to much faith on DLSS, even more when it won't be available on AMD chips.

My understanding is that Microsoft and AMD have been working together on their own version of Nvidia's DLSS that combines AMD RDNA 2 tech with Microsoft's DirectML Machine Learning tech. 

"But it doesn't end there. AMD and Microsoft also seem to be targeting Nvidia's DLSS technology with RDNA 2 and the Xbox Series X. If you're not familiar with DLSS, or deep learning super sampling, it's a technology that uses dedicated hardware on Turing graphics cards to upscale images through AI.

Nvidia graphics cards have dedicated Tensor cores that handle this, but AMD is taking another approach. Instead, AMD will be relying on the raw throughput of the GPU, and executing the machine learning workloads through 8- and 4-bit integer operations – much lower precision than the 32-bit operations that are typically used in graphics workloads. This should result in a huge amount of power for this up-scaling without sacrificing too much."

From this article: https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/xbox-series-x-specs

"While DirectML hasn't been confirmed as a next-generation console feature, you can be sure that Microsoft has been considering the option heavily. Work on DirectML has been happening, at least publically, for as long as DXR has, making it likely that AMD is working on hardware DirectML support for its next-generation graphics cards. 

Microsoft has already showcased the potential of machine learning in gaming applications, with the image below showcasing what happens when Machine Learning is used to upscale an image to four times its original resolution (basically from 1080p to 4K) to generate a sharper final image and reduced aliasing. The image below is a comparison between ML Super Sampling and bilinear upsampling. 

This technique has also been showcased during one of Microsoft's SIGGRAPH 2018 tech talks. This talk, which is entitled "Deep Learning for Real-Time Rendering: Accelerating GPU Inferencing with DirectML and DirectX 12" showcases Nvidia hardware upscaling Playground Games' Forza Horizon 3 from 1080p to 4K using DirectML in real-time. DirectML has the potential to improve the graphical fidelity of future console and PC games."

From this article: https://www.overclock3d.net/news/software/microsoft_s_directml_is_the_next-generation_game-changer_that_nobody_s_talking_about/1

AMD version of image reconstruction is present in both HW, but that won't substitute the power difference in any of the consoles since they both have it (be Lockhart, Series X or PS5), devs wouldn't decide to make the code in a way that only Lockhart benefit from it and leave the power difference used for nothing on the stronger consoles.

zero129 said:
DonFerrari said:

Because he was the one that put a lot of restrictions, because if we are then to consider a broader way we can include FFVIIR, TLOU2, GoT and others, even more when he doesn't have 8th gen console.

We don't know exactly how long. But since he asked about true new exclusives then it won't have on the first year at least.

Do you think with 1/3 of the power it will be as good as PS5?

You are putting to much faith on DLSS, even more when it won't be available on AMD chips.

@Bolded I never said anything about it being Exactly like the PS5 version, but it will be closer to the PS5 then say the wii was to the PS3 and will have ports of all next gen games that includes GTA6, next gen Fifa next gen CoD and if its half the price i can honestly see the appeal in such a device to the casuals and the average gamer who doesn't care about res or graphics.

If Lockhart was indeed capable of that it would basically render Series X useless.

Dulfite said:
DonFerrari said:

MS already informed that their games for the next 2 years will be crossgen. So no matter how many brand new exclusive AAA games come to PS5, it will be higher than XSX which will be 0 by own admission of Xbox.

And considering the historic of both companies you'll see the amount.

So it really isn't about the amount of AAA, it is really the company that pleases you.

Crossplay doesn't bother me. As long as it is a new game that's a new game and if it doesn't come to another company's device (PS5, Switch) then it's an exclusive in my book. So it won't be O to a gamer like me who doesn't even own an Xbox One. I do game on my PC currently but am looking to minimize that, hence my interest in next gen.

Crossgen isn't the same as crossplay.

If you consider let's say Halo Infinite a new exclusive game, and you don't have PS4 most of the latest games on PS4 would classify for crossgen when you see their improved versions on PS5.



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goopy20 said:
zero129 said:

Nothing.

Indeed. As soon as we get more visually ambitious games, 3rd party developers will likely target 1440p or use things like DLSS on the ps5 (and probably Series X). You tell me how those games are going to run on Lockhart with 1/3 of the gpu power? 

Do you read the quotes you do be replying to?.

Tech like DLSS can take a 540P image and upscale it to 1080P it can upscale a 720P image to 1440P and the results from nvidias dlss2 has been great, and AMD and MS have been working on such tech too for ages now.

So you tell me if the average gamer (You do like bringing them up so much) goes into a shop to buy a system they dont care about exclusives and sees the next fifa or cod or GTA6 running and looking pretty close to the PS5 and xbsx versions on lockhart but at half the price what do you think they will do?. Remember these aint the people that play on PC's these are the same people that didnt care about PS4Pro or XB1X, these are the same people that where fine with the wii being an SD machine while the HD twins where way more powerful. So in that spot what do you think the average low income gamer or parent or student would do?.



DonFerrari said:
shikamaru317 said:

My understanding is that Microsoft and AMD have been working together on their own version of Nvidia's DLSS that combines AMD RDNA 2 tech with Microsoft's DirectML Machine Learning tech. 

"But it doesn't end there. AMD and Microsoft also seem to be targeting Nvidia's DLSS technology with RDNA 2 and the Xbox Series X. If you're not familiar with DLSS, or deep learning super sampling, it's a technology that uses dedicated hardware on Turing graphics cards to upscale images through AI.

Nvidia graphics cards have dedicated Tensor cores that handle this, but AMD is taking another approach. Instead, AMD will be relying on the raw throughput of the GPU, and executing the machine learning workloads through 8- and 4-bit integer operations – much lower precision than the 32-bit operations that are typically used in graphics workloads. This should result in a huge amount of power for this up-scaling without sacrificing too much."

From this article: https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/xbox-series-x-specs

"While DirectML hasn't been confirmed as a next-generation console feature, you can be sure that Microsoft has been considering the option heavily. Work on DirectML has been happening, at least publically, for as long as DXR has, making it likely that AMD is working on hardware DirectML support for its next-generation graphics cards. 

Microsoft has already showcased the potential of machine learning in gaming applications, with the image below showcasing what happens when Machine Learning is used to upscale an image to four times its original resolution (basically from 1080p to 4K) to generate a sharper final image and reduced aliasing. The image below is a comparison between ML Super Sampling and bilinear upsampling. 

This technique has also been showcased during one of Microsoft's SIGGRAPH 2018 tech talks. This talk, which is entitled "Deep Learning for Real-Time Rendering: Accelerating GPU Inferencing with DirectML and DirectX 12" showcases Nvidia hardware upscaling Playground Games' Forza Horizon 3 from 1080p to 4K using DirectML in real-time. DirectML has the potential to improve the graphical fidelity of future console and PC games."

From this article: https://www.overclock3d.net/news/software/microsoft_s_directml_is_the_next-generation_game-changer_that_nobody_s_talking_about/1

AMD version of image reconstruction is present in both HW, but that won't substitute the power difference in any of the consoles since they both have it (be Lockhart, Series X or PS5), devs wouldn't decide to make the code in a way that only Lockhart benefit from it and leave the power difference used for nothing on the stronger consoles.

zero129 said:

@Bolded I never said anything about it being Exactly like the PS5 version, but it will be closer to the PS5 then say the wii was to the PS3 and will have ports of all next gen games that includes GTA6, next gen Fifa next gen CoD and if its half the price i can honestly see the appeal in such a device to the casuals and the average gamer who doesn't care about res or graphics.

If Lockhart was indeed capable of that it would basically render Series X useless.

Dulfite said:

Crossplay doesn't bother me. As long as it is a new game that's a new game and if it doesn't come to another company's device (PS5, Switch) then it's an exclusive in my book. So it won't be O to a gamer like me who doesn't even own an Xbox One. I do game on my PC currently but am looking to minimize that, hence my interest in next gen.

Crossgen isn't the same as crossplay.

If you consider let's say Halo Infinite a new exclusive game, and you don't have PS4 most of the latest games on PS4 would classify for crossgen when you see their improved versions on PS5.

Wouldnt it be totally crazy if Lockhart was MS's main nextgen machine and Series X was just to make sure no one could say MS launched a lower end nextgen device then Sony .



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zero129 said:
DonFerrari said:

AMD version of image reconstruction is present in both HW, but that won't substitute the power difference in any of the consoles since they both have it (be Lockhart, Series X or PS5), devs wouldn't decide to make the code in a way that only Lockhart benefit from it and leave the power difference used for nothing on the stronger consoles.

If Lockhart was indeed capable of that it would basically render Series X useless.

Crossgen isn't the same as crossplay.

If you consider let's say Halo Infinite a new exclusive game, and you don't have PS4 most of the latest games on PS4 would classify for crossgen when you see their improved versions on PS5.

Wouldnt it be totally crazy if Lockhart was MS's main nextgen machine and Series X was just to make sure no one could say MS launched a lower end nextgen device then Sony .

Series X made purely as “asset denial” of the power narrative? (Nods in approval). 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

DonFerrari said:
shikamaru317 said:

My understanding is that Microsoft and AMD have been working together on their own version of Nvidia's DLSS that combines AMD RDNA 2 tech with Microsoft's DirectML Machine Learning tech. 

"But it doesn't end there. AMD and Microsoft also seem to be targeting Nvidia's DLSS technology with RDNA 2 and the Xbox Series X. If you're not familiar with DLSS, or deep learning super sampling, it's a technology that uses dedicated hardware on Turing graphics cards to upscale images through AI.

Nvidia graphics cards have dedicated Tensor cores that handle this, but AMD is taking another approach. Instead, AMD will be relying on the raw throughput of the GPU, and executing the machine learning workloads through 8- and 4-bit integer operations – much lower precision than the 32-bit operations that are typically used in graphics workloads. This should result in a huge amount of power for this up-scaling without sacrificing too much."

From this article: https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/xbox-series-x-specs

"While DirectML hasn't been confirmed as a next-generation console feature, you can be sure that Microsoft has been considering the option heavily. Work on DirectML has been happening, at least publically, for as long as DXR has, making it likely that AMD is working on hardware DirectML support for its next-generation graphics cards. 

Microsoft has already showcased the potential of machine learning in gaming applications, with the image below showcasing what happens when Machine Learning is used to upscale an image to four times its original resolution (basically from 1080p to 4K) to generate a sharper final image and reduced aliasing. The image below is a comparison between ML Super Sampling and bilinear upsampling. 

This technique has also been showcased during one of Microsoft's SIGGRAPH 2018 tech talks. This talk, which is entitled "Deep Learning for Real-Time Rendering: Accelerating GPU Inferencing with DirectML and DirectX 12" showcases Nvidia hardware upscaling Playground Games' Forza Horizon 3 from 1080p to 4K using DirectML in real-time. DirectML has the potential to improve the graphical fidelity of future console and PC games."

From this article: https://www.overclock3d.net/news/software/microsoft_s_directml_is_the_next-generation_game-changer_that_nobody_s_talking_about/1

AMD version of image reconstruction is present in both HW, but that won't substitute the power difference in any of the consoles since they both have it (be Lockhart, Series X or PS5), devs wouldn't decide to make the code in a way that only Lockhart benefit from it and leave the power difference used for nothing on the stronger consoles.

zero129 said:

@Bolded I never said anything about it being Exactly like the PS5 version, but it will be closer to the PS5 then say the wii was to the PS3 and will have ports of all next gen games that includes GTA6, next gen Fifa next gen CoD and if its half the price i can honestly see the appeal in such a device to the casuals and the average gamer who doesn't care about res or graphics.

If Lockhart was indeed capable of that it would basically render Series X useless.

Dulfite said:

Crossplay doesn't bother me. As long as it is a new game that's a new game and if it doesn't come to another company's device (PS5, Switch) then it's an exclusive in my book. So it won't be O to a gamer like me who doesn't even own an Xbox One. I do game on my PC currently but am looking to minimize that, hence my interest in next gen.

Crossgen isn't the same as crossplay.

If you consider let's say Halo Infinite a new exclusive game, and you don't have PS4 most of the latest games on PS4 would classify for crossgen when you see their improved versions on PS5.

I meant to say crossgen lol my bad.



zero129 said:
DonFerrari said:

AMD version of image reconstruction is present in both HW, but that won't substitute the power difference in any of the consoles since they both have it (be Lockhart, Series X or PS5), devs wouldn't decide to make the code in a way that only Lockhart benefit from it and leave the power difference used for nothing on the stronger consoles.

If Lockhart was indeed capable of that it would basically render Series X useless.

Crossgen isn't the same as crossplay.

If you consider let's say Halo Infinite a new exclusive game, and you don't have PS4 most of the latest games on PS4 would classify for crossgen when you see their improved versions on PS5.

Wouldnt it be totally crazy if Lockhart was MS's main nextgen machine and Series X was just to make sure no one could say MS launched a lower end nextgen device then Sony .

And they will do shadow announce it?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

zero129 said:
goopy20 said:

Indeed. As soon as we get more visually ambitious games, 3rd party developers will likely target 1440p or use things like DLSS on the ps5 (and probably Series X). You tell me how those games are going to run on Lockhart with 1/3 of the gpu power? 

Do you read the quotes you do be replying to?.

Tech like DLSS can take a 540P image and upscale it to 1080P it can upscale a 720P image to 1440P and the results from nvidias dlss2 has been great, and AMD and MS have been working on such tech too for ages now.

So you tell me if the average gamer (You do like bringing them up so much) goes into a shop to buy a system they dont care about exclusives and sees the next fifa or cod or GTA6 running and looking pretty close to the PS5 and xbsx versions on lockhart but at half the price what do you think they will do?. Remember these aint the people that play on PC's these are the same people that didnt care about PS4Pro or XB1X, these are the same people that where fine with the wii being an SD machine while the HD twins where way more powerful. So in that spot what do you think the average low income gamer or parent or student would do?.

I dunno man. First everybody is excited about Series X being a 12Tflops beast (me included) and now you actually want Ms's weaksauce 4Tflops Lockhart to be the base platform, knowing that means all those 12Tflops will be rendered practically useless?

Like I said, as a gamer, I seriously hope Lockhart won't be targeted as the base console because all the other platforms will be dramatically held back by it. If DLSS can make games look like native 4k while rendering them at 540p, why wouldn't you want Series X and ps5 to use it as well? 

Maybe it's just me but I want these next gen consoles to push visuals way beyond what's possible on current gen. Phil might say that's not really going to happen, but the UE5 demo alone already proved otherwise. Now here's a fun fact for ya, did you know that the UE5 tech demo was only using about the same GPU resources as Fortnite? Cgi got pretty excited after he saw the ue5 demo and said it's only the beginning. I can't say I disagree, unless developers would really waste all resources on native 4k/60fps because they need to hit some kind of badge of approval standard for Series X optimized games.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 03 July 2020

goopy20 said:

Maybe it's just me but I want these next gen consoles to push visuals way beyond what's possible on current gen. Phil might say that's not really going to happen, but the UE5 demo alone already proved otherwise. Now here's a fun fact for ya, did you know that the UE5 tech demo was only using about the same GPU resources as Fortnite? Cgi got pretty excited after he saw the ue5 demo and said it's only the beginning. I can't say I disagree, unless developers would really waste all resources on native 4k/60fps because they need to hit some kind of badge of approval standard for Series X optimized games.

He hasn't and won't say this.

And while native 4k might be a waste of resources, 60fps most certainly won't be. At least games should have an option for performance mode like Gears 5 and Forza Horizon 4. Pretty unbelieveable if we have to be playing 30fps slideshow in 2021.