Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 38 42.22%
 
Yes 52 57.78%
 
Total:90
the-pi-guy said:

>So why not be better instead of inciting and participating in more discussion that isn't about the game itself?

Because I'm responding to the discussion.  You're equating inventing a bad discussion with responding to a bad discussion, when they aren't the same.

>That all depends on what people feel like, how direct and clear you are be damned. If I call you a racist right now, would you say it must be because of your conduct? No it's because I'm stupid lul. Simply saying you don't like TLOU2 in a more aggressive or impolite way doesn't suddenly make you racist. Making biased assumptions when you lack information isn't an excuse for false accusations either.

I wasn't defending that people made the comments.  I'm just explaining that it's common for people to be wrongfully nasty when they make assumptions.  

Sure, there's all kinds of reasons why people can connect to someone.  But when you've gone through something due to your looks or your sexuality, it's nice to see experiences that you can relate to.  

I'm suggesting how you can take matters into your own hands. If you just want to vent then that's fine. 

Being ostracized, abused, etc. are not experiences exclusive to any specific appearance/sexuality. I can still understand and relate to Lev's struggle despite our completely different identities if you can believe it for example. Frankly identity just doesn't matter at all outside of describing what someone looks like and finding a romantic partner (EDIT: there are more situations but you get what I mean), or rather it shouldn't. Of course it does to some people sadly. You wouldn't define a real person by their looks or sexuality (I hope anyway) so it should be the same with fictional characters too.

I'm also against putting stock in identity because I feel that's probably a common cause for people to get too attached to fictional characters. I'm talking to the point where they see criticism n hate towards that fictional character and their series as a personal attack. It would explain the "if you don't like X you're racist/sexist/etc." logic beyond just being a cheap way to deflect criticism.

Last edited by Lonely_Dolphin - on 27 July 2020

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Lonely_Dolphin said:
the-pi-guy said:

>So why not be better instead of inciting and participating in more discussion that isn't about the game itself?

Because I'm responding to the discussion.  You're equating inventing a bad discussion with responding to a bad discussion, when they aren't the same.

>That all depends on what people feel like, how direct and clear you are be damned. If I call you a racist right now, would you say it must be because of your conduct? No it's because I'm stupid lul. Simply saying you don't like TLOU2 in a more aggressive or impolite way doesn't suddenly make you racist. Making biased assumptions when you lack information isn't an excuse for false accusations either.

I wasn't defending that people made the comments.  I'm just explaining that it's common for people to be wrongfully nasty when they make assumptions.  

Sure, there's all kinds of reasons why people can connect to someone.  But when you've gone through something due to your looks or your sexuality, it's nice to see experiences that you can relate to.  

I'm suggesting how you can take matters into your own hands. If you just want to vent then that's fine. 

Being ostracized, abused, etc. are not experiences exclusive to any specific appearance/sexuality. I can still understand and relate to Lev's struggle despite our completely different identities if you can believe it for example. Frankly identity just doesn't matter at all outside of describing what someone looks like and finding a romantic partner (EDIT: there are more situations but you get what I mean), or rather it shouldn't. Of course it does to some people sadly. You wouldn't define a real person by their looks or sexuality (I hope anyway) so it should be the same with fictional characters too.

I'm also against putting stock in identity because I feel that's probably a common cause for people to get too attached to fictional characters. I'm talking to the point where they see criticism n hate towards that fictional character and their series as a personal attack. It would explain the "if you don't like X you're racist/sexist/etc." logic beyond just being a cheap way to deflect criticism.

"Anyone can be prejudiced and anyone can be a victim, therefore we shouldn't do anything to stop bigotry or address issues plaguing a minority." Fixed it for ya.

Based on this post alone I don't think you have any interest or willingness to correct your bad behaviour or ignorant opinions on the matter. I get the distinct impression it doesn't matter how much evidence, time, or effort anyone puts into a thorough explanation of the situation will make you realize how ignorant your comments are. You made up your mind already and have no interest in learning or growing. 



Alara317 said:

You made up your mind already and have no interest in learning or growing. 

Ha speak for yourself, unlike you I'm willing to discuss with people who don't immediately agree with everything I say. Also I'm not the ignorant one here. I asked you for clarification and examples, literally the opposite of ignorance. You ignored this opportunity to inform, instead butting into a separate conversation to take what I said out of context and draw a disingenuous conclusion from it for the sole purpose of calling me bad and ignorant. If that's good behavior to ya then you're damn right I have no interest in growing and learning to be like you.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
Alara317 said:

You made up your mind already and have no interest in learning or growing. 

Ha speak for yourself, unlike you I'm willing to discuss with people who don't immediately agree with everything I say. Also I'm not the ignorant one here. I asked you for clarification and examples, literally the opposite of ignorance. You ignored this opportunity to inform, instead butting into a separate conversation to take what I said out of context and draw a disingenuous conclusion from it for the sole purpose of calling me bad and ignorant. If that's good behavior to ya then you're damn right I have no interest in growing and learning to be like you.

No you're not. Nothing in the past few pages of this thread has even hinted at anything short of closeminded bigotry on your part masquerading as your own brand of wokeness. It's pretty sad. the reason I (and many others) haven't taken the time to meticulously craft out lengthy explanations on why you're wrong is that sometimes we know when a person is a lost cause. 

I'm not just butting into something and commenting out of context. I'm putting your post history into context. You can't just say 'nuh uh, no you' and act like that's a good enough counter. 

I don't want you to be like me. I want you to not be ignorant and bigoted. I'm a very unique person, the world only needs one of me. but the world needs less of you, if you're the kind of person who has a problem with...just so many things that you clearly have a problem with. I bet you'd be the kind of person who would oppose desegregation in the 60's and 70's. I bet you'd be the kind of person agreeing to internment camps for the Japanese post Pearl Harbour. I bet you'd be the kind of person trying to justify the holocaust in 1939 Germany. Since you don't live in those times it's obviously a hell of an extrapolation on the data, but you're clearly opposed to progressive viewpoints and will resist them at every turn. 

The first step to fixing a problem is admitting there's a problem and you're doing mental gymnastics to refuse to accept that's the case. If you can't even do that and actively resist it, how the fuck do you think anyone could ever convince you of a solution?



Alara317 said:

the reason I (and many others) haven't taken the time to meticulously craft out lengthy explanations on why you're wrong is that sometimes we know when a person is a lost cause.

Yet you're still willing to reply to me, so clearly an invalid excuse. You don't want to discuss because you can't handle differing opinions, that's the real reason.

Everyone can see I engaged in a discussion with the-pi-guy even though I didn't agree with everything he said. Everyone can see you ignored my attempt to discuss even though you said things I didn't like the sound of. Based on these facts, one can only come to the conclusion that I am in fact willing to discuss and you are not. That isn't me just saying nuh uh and no you, that's me using logic and evidence, something I wish you would do.

Your only basis for going on this pointless butthurt tangent is a vague "but your post history!" Ok, what about it? Once again you need to explain and provide examples of supposed ignorance n bigotry rather than expecting everyone to just immediately agree with you.

"I want you to not be ignorant and bigoted." You really believe calling people ignorant n bigoted with zero explanation is an effective way to get them to stop, let alone even realize that they are ignorant n bigoted? Surely you know that ignorant means lacking information, so anything less than providing said information is going to do absolutely nothing to help your cause.

With your "I bet you're the kind of person" spiel, basically calling me a racist nazi, you've solidified your irrationality. I suspected as much as early as your first post, yet I still tried to get information from ya. You wanna act holier than thou but I'm the more tolerant and reasonable one here. It's pretty clear we're only having this conversation because my opinions upset you. You have no interest in learning my side nor even explaining yours, all you're doing here is trying to insult and discredit me, "he's a bigot so everything he says is automatically invalid and wrong!"

Unfortunately there's a lot of people like you, but fortunately we're on the internet so I can very easily ignore if need be, but for now I still find you entertaining enough, your logic or rather lack thereof is fascinating. "I'll stop ignorance by not informing people!" haha.



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If half of you people took real issues as strongly as this is taken then we would live in a better world,calling eachother the scum of the earth on opinions over some entertainment is so useless.



Immersiveunreality said:
If half of you people took real issues as strongly as this is taken then we would live in a better world,calling eachother the scum of the earth on opinions over some entertainment is so useless.

You DO realize that having certain opinions about games and inclusion in said games is a pretty clear indicator of what a person is likely to do when voting or advocating, right? 

You're too passive. You have been pretty keen on complacency or inactivity. Guess what: That doesn't work. 



Alara317 said:
Immersiveunreality said:
If half of you people took real issues as strongly as this is taken then we would live in a better world,calling eachother the scum of the earth on opinions over some entertainment is so useless.

You DO realize that having certain opinions about games and inclusion in said games is a pretty clear indicator of what a person is likely to do when voting or advocating, right? 

You're too passive. You have been pretty keen on complacency or inactivity. Guess what: That doesn't work. 

And what you're doing does work? xD



Alara317 said:
Immersiveunreality said:
If half of you people took real issues as strongly as this is taken then we would live in a better world,calling eachother the scum of the earth on opinions over some entertainment is so useless.

You DO realize that having certain opinions about games and inclusion in said games is a pretty clear indicator of what a person is likely to do when voting or advocating, right? 

You're too passive. You have been pretty keen on complacency or inactivity. Guess what: That doesn't work. 

You do not know me,i'm anything but passive whenever i can help others being victimized and i even feel very strongly about helping them whenever they're in need of it.(kinda funny i have actually been beaten up a few times just to protect others from whatever you blame people for online)

Why do you think blaming others on the internet is anything close to important,and why do you think you can just call me passive because of me not wanting to partake in this bs that does not focus on solving problems?

No,i'm very active where it matters.(and to counter your condescending attitude towards me you could consider to be a bit more usefull yourself as you seem to be too passive in reality)

Being this active on the internet does not make anyone superior or better,at best it is lazy activism.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 29 July 2020

Immersiveunreality said:
Alara317 said:

You DO realize that having certain opinions about games and inclusion in said games is a pretty clear indicator of what a person is likely to do when voting or advocating, right? 

You're too passive. You have been pretty keen on complacency or inactivity. Guess what: That doesn't work. 

You do not know me,i'm anything but passive whenever i can help others being victimized and i even feel very strongly about helping them whenever they're in need of it.(kinda funny i have actually been beaten up a few times just to protect others from whatever you blame people for online)

Why do you think blaming others on the internet is anything close to important,and why do you think you can just call me passive because of me not wanting to partake in this bs that does not focus on solving problems?

No,i'm very active where it matters.(and to counter your condescending attitude towards me you could consider to be a bit more usefull yourself as you seem to be too passive in reality)

OF course I don't know you, I can only go based on what I see on the forum and almost all of your comments I've seen are some variation on encouraging people not to act or not to 'jump to conclusions'. You're complacent, that's the most apt descriptor of the way you go about things on here. 

And for the record, I DO attend protests, I DO get involved with local politics, and I DO take an interest in actively doing something to better my community. And one thing I've learned in 12+ years in the system is that it's pretty easy to tell the early signs of bigotry and hate. One of the key factors in identifying potential radicals or potentially dangerous bigotry is how they act online and how they react. If someone is on facebook or Reddit or any other online forum (This one as well) vocally complaining about agendas and SJW nonsense, that's almost always an indicator that they're more likely to protest positive change in the real world as well. I've dedicated much of my life to understanding these factors, and your constant undermining of any efforts I or anyone else has taken to proactively fix the issue before it gets really bad is NOT helping. 

You are not helping. Complacency only helps the oppressors. 

I'm not being condescending and I'm not being complacent. I'm sick and tired of clearly bigoted behaviours being tolerated as 'normal' or in any way acceptable. I'm sick and tired of people worldwide waiting for Charlottesville or George Floyd or the Orlando Nightclub shooting for people to take action. I'm sick of 'thoughts and prayers' being enough. They say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You're here refusing to put in any preventative measures and complaining when the cure is too aggressive. 

You are not helping. Complacency only helps the oppressors. Stop being a hypocrite and stop acting like inaction is somehow the only noble course of action. Things need to change, and there are many ways to enact change. One of the best and earliest ways to enact that change is by altering public perception, which art can do. Games like The Last of Us might appear to glorify violence, but the visuals and that sinking feeling you get in your gut are exactly how they plan on making some people realize how terrible things are. It makes you uncomfortable, which is why it's effective but also why it's pissed so many people off. The whole lesbian and trans issue in the game is literally an example of normalizing this sort of thing, and it makes people blow a fucking gasket then wiggle around to justify their hate. This entire thread is a testament to how far people will go to justify hate and devalue any attempts people make to try and make the world a better place. 

I definitely don't think you're a bigot (none of your posts support hate or ignorance), but you're exactly the kind of person who is just getting in the way by crying about both sides being hateful and violent. Your 'take no action until it's too late' behaviour is making things worse and you're just obstructing progress in either direction. You can say you're active all you want in the real world, but all I have to go on is what you post on the forum here and every post I've seen of yours on the topic basically boils down to willingly turning a blind eye to any preventative or progressive actions. I reiterate, I don't think you're a bad person and I don't get the impression you're trying to encourage bigotry or anything, but you need to know your behaviour and stance on so many issues is NOT helping the way you think it is.