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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
Alara317 said:
@Hiku I said he was ignoring counterpoints, not that he was expressly saying certain things. My claims were of his message, not his words. Even you said that "AllLivesMatter" explicitly exists to counter BlackLivesMatter, not that it means what its users say it means.

Right, but without seeing the conversation I'm not sure how someone ignores a counterpoint, if they didn't make the claim in the first place.

Maybe Dolphin mentioned ALM, and you or someone else explained how it's a disingenuous retort to BLM. Then Dolphin mentioned ALM again, as if no one did?
In that case it'd be important to see the context of why he mentioned it.

You can PM a moderator the details if you'd like. But in either case we'll get back to you guys about some other things said here later.



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Hiku said:

The mod team is currently looking over and discussing some posts here, but that will take a while.
Though in the meantime there are two points in your post I want to address.

First, if @Alara317 could chime in on Dolphin's claim here that he didn't say any of those things, and whether that's accurate or not, that would be helpful context. If the person claimimg that the other person said something they deny is correct, that means there is evidence of this in the form of an older post that you can link to. (And don't worry about the possibility of them editing it out of their post afterwards to cover their tracks. We can see all edit history of a post.) If you don't have such a link, or can't/don't want to find it, I suggest bookmarking posts from now on if you think it's something you may bring up in the future.

As for the bolded, Dolphin, it's not about believing that all lives matter, but the reason that phrase is used as a counter to Black Lives Matter.
Which is insinuating that BLM suggests that white lives matter less, or not at all. We've in fact had people on this forum thinking that was the case.

White supremacists, bigots, etc find these things important. Which makes this an important issue to anyone that doesn't want them getting their way.
And while they find these things important, they'll try to convince potential allies of LGBT/women, etc that it is not important, and to not be vigilant about it, and how it's actually a bad thing, because 'realism in videogames' etc, because everyone can relate to this. While their motives extend far beyond just entertainment.

However, there's more to representation than just combating bigotry, or even identifying with a character. I for example usually prefer female characters. But I don't identify as one. It's just my preference. What some people may not understand is why this matters to some people more than it does yourself. Because you're unable to relate to anyone's feelings, based on your own.
Someone that says 'I don't care if the main character is white or not' may say that because 90%+ of the characters they experience happen to be closer to their preference than otherwise. 
If 90% of the characters were instead black with an afro haircut, and this is an aesthetic they don't usually find pleasing, then they may understand why some people would like to see their characters some times look different.

While it should be the claimant who provides proof, I'll go ahead and link to the aforementioned conversation I had about BLM. Only took a few minutes going through my post history to find it.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179382

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179507

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9184422

Again, don't care about the name, but I'll just say that they shouldn't be leaving it up to interpretation by not calling it "Black Lives Matter Too."

Also, how does a racist/sexist/etc. convince people that race/sex/etc. doesn't matter? You can't be a racist/sexist/etc. without putting intrinsic value on race/sex/etc. I don't have to care about identity to know it's foolish to love or hate people based on their identity. 



Lonely_Dolphin said:
Hiku said:

The mod team is currently looking over and discussing some posts here, but that will take a while.
Though in the meantime there are two points in your post I want to address.

First, if @Alara317 could chime in on Dolphin's claim here that he didn't say any of those things, and whether that's accurate or not, that would be helpful context. If the person claimimg that the other person said something they deny is correct, that means there is evidence of this in the form of an older post that you can link to. (And don't worry about the possibility of them editing it out of their post afterwards to cover their tracks. We can see all edit history of a post.) If you don't have such a link, or can't/don't want to find it, I suggest bookmarking posts from now on if you think it's something you may bring up in the future.

As for the bolded, Dolphin, it's not about believing that all lives matter, but the reason that phrase is used as a counter to Black Lives Matter.
Which is insinuating that BLM suggests that white lives matter less, or not at all. We've in fact had people on this forum thinking that was the case.

White supremacists, bigots, etc find these things important. Which makes this an important issue to anyone that doesn't want them getting their way.
And while they find these things important, they'll try to convince potential allies of LGBT/women, etc that it is not important, and to not be vigilant about it, and how it's actually a bad thing, because 'realism in videogames' etc, because everyone can relate to this. While their motives extend far beyond just entertainment.

However, there's more to representation than just combating bigotry, or even identifying with a character. I for example usually prefer female characters. But I don't identify as one. It's just my preference. What some people may not understand is why this matters to some people more than it does yourself. Because you're unable to relate to anyone's feelings, based on your own.
Someone that says 'I don't care if the main character is white or not' may say that because 90%+ of the characters they experience happen to be closer to their preference than otherwise. 
If 90% of the characters were instead black with an afro haircut, and this is an aesthetic they don't usually find pleasing, then they may understand why some people would like to see their characters some times look different.

While it should be the claimant who provides proof, I'll go ahead and link to the aforementioned conversation I had about BLM. Only took a few minutes going through my post history to find it.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179382

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179507

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9184422

Again, don't care about the name, but I'll just say that they shouldn't be leaving it up to interpretation by not calling it "Black Lives Matter Too."

Also, how does a racist/sexist/etc. convince people that race/sex/etc. doesn't matter? You can't be a racist/sexist/etc. without putting intrinsic value on race/sex/etc. I don't have to care about identity to know it's foolish to love or hate people based on their identity. 

I really don't think you're helping your cause. And regardless of how things pan out, it's easy to get your messages mixed up since you seem to adhere to so many terrible, anti-progress beliefs that tend to line up pretty handily with white supremacists. You might not be one (I have no fucking idea what you believe, I just know I don't particularly like you based off what I've read), but when your talking points are the same talking points of the KKK in the midst of a race-based conflict across the country, you might wanna reevaluate. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II, Rock Band 4

Lonely_Dolphin said:
Hiku said:

The mod team is currently looking over and discussing some posts here, but that will take a while.
Though in the meantime there are two points in your post I want to address.

First, if @Alara317 could chime in on Dolphin's claim here that he didn't say any of those things, and whether that's accurate or not, that would be helpful context. If the person claimimg that the other person said something they deny is correct, that means there is evidence of this in the form of an older post that you can link to. (And don't worry about the possibility of them editing it out of their post afterwards to cover their tracks. We can see all edit history of a post.) If you don't have such a link, or can't/don't want to find it, I suggest bookmarking posts from now on if you think it's something you may bring up in the future.

As for the bolded, Dolphin, it's not about believing that all lives matter, but the reason that phrase is used as a counter to Black Lives Matter.
Which is insinuating that BLM suggests that white lives matter less, or not at all. We've in fact had people on this forum thinking that was the case.

White supremacists, bigots, etc find these things important. Which makes this an important issue to anyone that doesn't want them getting their way.
And while they find these things important, they'll try to convince potential allies of LGBT/women, etc that it is not important, and to not be vigilant about it, and how it's actually a bad thing, because 'realism in videogames' etc, because everyone can relate to this. While their motives extend far beyond just entertainment.

However, there's more to representation than just combating bigotry, or even identifying with a character. I for example usually prefer female characters. But I don't identify as one. It's just my preference. What some people may not understand is why this matters to some people more than it does yourself. Because you're unable to relate to anyone's feelings, based on your own.
Someone that says 'I don't care if the main character is white or not' may say that because 90%+ of the characters they experience happen to be closer to their preference than otherwise. 
If 90% of the characters were instead black with an afro haircut, and this is an aesthetic they don't usually find pleasing, then they may understand why some people would like to see their characters some times look different.

While it should be the claimant who provides proof, I'll go ahead and link to the aforementioned conversation I had about BLM. Only took a few minutes going through my post history to find it.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179382

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9179507

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9184422

Again, don't care about the name, but I'll just say that they shouldn't be leaving it up to interpretation by not calling it "Black Lives Matter Too."

Also, how does a racist/sexist/etc. convince people that race/sex/etc. doesn't matter? You can't be a racist/sexist/etc. without putting intrinsic value on race/sex/etc. I don't have to care about identity to know it's foolish to love or hate people based on their identity. 

Thanks for the links. Much appreciated.

As for the question, I was referring to people saying one thing in private, and something else in public.
Some times private conversations leak and reveal that yes, those things that sounded very bigoted but the person swore weren't, in fact were.
Though most of the time people are not that careless, so it's up to everyone to look for red flags in consistent behavior.

But to everyone here, try to avoid pointing out how much you may dislike another user. Unless that person did something particularly egregious, it will end up looking like flaming on your part, and you may no longer be able to post in the thread.

Last edited by Hiku - on 03 August 2020

Hiku said:

Thanks for the links. Much appreciated.

As for the question, I was referring to people saying one thing in private, and something else in public.
Some times private conversations leak and reveal that yes, those things that sounded very bigoted but the person swore weren't, in fact were.
Though most of the time people are not that careless, so it's up to everyone to look for red flags in consistent behavior.

But to everyone here, try to avoid pointing out how much you may dislike another user. Unless that person did something particularly egregious, it will end up looking like flaming on your part, and you may no longer be able to post in the thread.

Bigotry has a very clear definition, so don't know how something just sounds like it, it either is or isn't. Even if I were to say "Haha tricked yal I am a bigot!" that doesn't make anything I said prior suddenly become bigoted if it wasn't already. But how can you even go off of private conversations if you haven't seen them? Runa and Alara have not seen mine that's for sure. Also, if they're having to keep their bigotry private, that should be good enough. Not acting on their beliefs in public has to be good enough because it's simply impossible to clear the world of wrong think, so this is the best we can hope for.



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Lonely_Dolphin said:
Hiku said:

Thanks for the links. Much appreciated.

As for the question, I was referring to people saying one thing in private, and something else in public.
Some times private conversations leak and reveal that yes, those things that sounded very bigoted but the person swore weren't, in fact were.
Though most of the time people are not that careless, so it's up to everyone to look for red flags in consistent behavior.

But to everyone here, try to avoid pointing out how much you may dislike another user. Unless that person did something particularly egregious, it will end up looking like flaming on your part, and you may no longer be able to post in the thread.

Bigotry has a very clear definition, so don't know how something just sounds like it, it either is or isn't. Even if I were to say "Haha tricked yal I am a bigot!" that doesn't make anything I said prior suddenly become bigoted if it wasn't already.

I think you understand the concept of disingenuous framing, dog whistles, thinly veiled bigotry, etc, to achieve the same goal.

This sounds similar to your argument that we shouldn't consider someone trolling unless we can prove it/they confess, etc, which as I said before would make life very easy for people that skirt the rules.
Either way I'm not interested in debating those things today. Maybe some day.

Lonely_Dolphin said:

But how can you even go off of private conversations if you haven't seen them? Runa and Alara have not seen mine that's for sure. Also, if they're having to keep their bigotry private, that should be good enough. Not acting on their beliefs in public has to be good enough because it's simply impossible to clear the world of wrong think, so this is the best we can hope for.

I wasn't talking about your private conversations. But that it happens at times, and people see what kind of language and talking points are used in public, and what it actually means/what they want to achieve when they think it'll remain private. So people learn what red flags to look for.

And I'm referring to people that are acting on their beliefs in public, but chose their words more carefully.

Anyway, aside from the things pertaining to the moderator business I mentioned, I feel like this is derailing the thread, so I won't be replying to any more questions about this here. Let's consider this discussion over, and get back to where you guys were before.

Last edited by Hiku - on 05 August 2020

Hiku said:

I think you understand the concept of disingenuous framing, dog whistles, thinly veiled bigotry, etc, to achieve the same goal.

This sounds similar to your argument that we shouldn't consider someone trolling unless we can prove it/they confess, etc, which as I said before would make life very easy for people that skirt the rules.
Either way I'm not interested in debating those things today. Maybe some day.

I wasn't talking about your private conversations. But that it happens at times, and people see what kind of language and talking points are used in public, and what it actually means/what they want to achieve when they think it'll remain private. So people learn what red flags to look for.

And I'm referring to people that are acting on their beliefs in public, but chose their words more carefully.

Anyway, aside from the things pertaining to the moderator business I mentioned, I feel like this is derailing the thread, so I won't be replying to any more questions about this here. Let's consider this discussion over, and get back to where you guys were before.

I don't believe you believe what you're saying here. If you don't need evidence or care about what the accused has to say, why didn't you immediately side with Alara n Runa and just ban me? If you're really just acting on pure biased emotions that would be the thing to do, no need for discussions then since what could you even be discussing if not facts and proof or the lack thereof.

I'm using myself as counterexample, seeing as I've just been accused of acting on my bigotry in public, and I'm assuming by people who learn what it "actually means" (a.k.a. what I feel like it means) you mean people like Runa and Alara. I don't doubt that it happens for real, but false accusations of bigotry by people like them who believe whatever they feel like regardless of reality are far more common than real accounts of bigotry in my experience.

Of course people can be disingenuous while preaching that what they do is for the greater good, but here's how I determine this.

First, when asked to explain/provide evidence/etc. do they do so? Example: Alara accusing me of bigotry and saying there are loud aggressive bigots, zero evidence provided.

Second, if they do give an explanation, does it make sense? Example: Alara claimed that being "passive" doesn't stop bigots, implying that being aggressive does work, even after it clearly didn't work. 

If your intentions are true then you should be eager to discuss, if what you claim is reality, eager to show the evidence. That's obviously not the case here, the only intention was to flame. When you believe my literal anti-bigotry ideas are somehow bigotry, it's clear they don't give a shit at all about progress and equality. You don't have to like me or what I'm saying to understand the simple fact that if no one cared about race/sex/etc. then there would be no racist/sexist/etc. Granted people will always make up arbitrary reasons to hate each other, but I digress.

This type of discussion is literally where we were even before Alara came at me but ok lol.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
Hiku said:

I think you understand the concept of disingenuous framing, dog whistles, thinly veiled bigotry, etc, to achieve the same goal.

This sounds similar to your argument that we shouldn't consider someone trolling unless we can prove it/they confess, etc, which as I said before would make life very easy for people that skirt the rules.
Either way I'm not interested in debating those things today. Maybe some day.

I wasn't talking about your private conversations. But that it happens at times, and people see what kind of language and talking points are used in public, and what it actually means/what they want to achieve when they think it'll remain private. So people learn what red flags to look for.

And I'm referring to people that are acting on their beliefs in public, but chose their words more carefully.

Anyway, aside from the things pertaining to the moderator business I mentioned, I feel like this is derailing the thread, so I won't be replying to any more questions about this here. Let's consider this discussion over, and get back to where you guys were before.

I don't believe you believe what you're saying here. If you don't need evidence or care about what the accused has to say, why didn't you immediately side with Alara n Runa and just ban me?

Because this isn't about whether or not you are a bigot. It was (partially) about one member seemingly claiming the other has said something that they deny saying. No matter what the subject is, it's better if people can back up such claims. And regarding this particular instance, it could be useful for us to see see these old posts to understand the context of this discussion more properly.

Lonely_Dolphin said:

I'm using myself as counterexample, seeing as I've just been accused of acting on my bigotry in public, and I'm assuming by people who learn what it "actually means" (a.k.a. what I feel like it means) you mean people like Runa and Alara.

No I was not referring to them.
You weren't even one of the people potentially in trouble here. But you ignored me telling you to not continue this in here, so now you very well may be.
I didn't want to reply again, but I also didn't expect you to claim that the mods were looking into banning you for supposedly being a bigot. So I have to set the record straight there.

And this is why, among other reasons, to stop when a moderator tells you to stop.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
Hiku said:

I think you understand the concept of disingenuous framing, dog whistles, thinly veiled bigotry, etc, to achieve the same goal.

This sounds similar to your argument that we shouldn't consider someone trolling unless we can prove it/they confess, etc, which as I said before would make life very easy for people that skirt the rules.
Either way I'm not interested in debating those things today. Maybe some day.

I wasn't talking about your private conversations. But that it happens at times, and people see what kind of language and talking points are used in public, and what it actually means/what they want to achieve when they think it'll remain private. So people learn what red flags to look for.

And I'm referring to people that are acting on their beliefs in public, but chose their words more carefully.

Anyway, aside from the things pertaining to the moderator business I mentioned, I feel like this is derailing the thread, so I won't be replying to any more questions about this here. Let's consider this discussion over, and get back to where you guys were before.

I don't believe you believe what you're saying here. If you don't need evidence or care about what the accused has to say, why didn't you immediately side with Alara n Runa and just ban me? If you're really just acting on pure biased emotions that would be the thing to do, no need for discussions then since what could you even be discussing if not facts and proof or the lack thereof.

I'm using myself as counterexample, seeing as I've just been accused of acting on my bigotry in public, and I'm assuming by people who learn what it "actually means" (a.k.a. what I feel like it means) you mean people like Runa and Alara. I don't doubt that it happens for real, but false accusations of bigotry by people like them who believe whatever they feel like regardless of reality are far more common than real accounts of bigotry in my experience.

Of course people can be disingenuous while preaching that what they do is for the greater good, but here's how I determine this.

First, when asked to explain/provide evidence/etc. do they do so? Example: Alara accusing me of bigotry and saying there are loud aggressive bigots, zero evidence provided.

Second, if they do give an explanation, does it make sense? Example: Alara claimed that being "passive" doesn't stop bigots, implying that being aggressive does work, even after it clearly didn't work. 

If your intentions are true then you should be eager to discuss, if what you claim is reality, eager to show the evidence. That's obviously not the case here, the only intention was to flame. When you believe my literal anti-bigotry ideas are somehow bigotry, it's clear they don't give a shit at all about progress and equality. You don't have to like me or what I'm saying to understand the simple fact that if no one cared about race/sex/etc. then there would be no racist/sexist/etc. Granted people will always make up arbitrary reasons to hate each other, but I digress.

This type of discussion is literally where we were even before Alara came at me but ok lol.

I really find it troublesome when someone judge the other by what they think they said instead of what they really said and without confirmation. The first week of training on the company I work there was a very good video and the message stick to me "when someone say something that can be interpreted in several ways give the benefit of doubt and use the least damaging one".



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

I really find it troublesome when someone judge the other by what they think they said instead of what they really said and without confirmation. The first week of training on the company I work there was a very good video and the message stick to me "when someone say something that can be interpreted in several ways give the benefit of doubt and use the least damaging one".

A great message and what I strive to do, hence why I didn't immediately call Alara (who we now know was Runa's alt, explains a lot lol) the racist heterophobe that his initial post could be seen as. As we've seen, there are people who think it's not only fair and just to jump to conclusions but also stand by them even after contradictory evidence and explanation has been provided. It's always good to be reminded that I'm not the only one who prioritizes logic over feels.