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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
Alara317 said:

the reason I (and many others) haven't taken the time to meticulously craft out lengthy explanations on why you're wrong is that sometimes we know when a person is a lost cause.

Yet you're still willing to reply to me, so clearly an invalid excuse. You don't want to discuss because you can't handle differing opinions, that's the real reason.

Everyone can see I engaged in a discussion with the-pi-guy even though I didn't agree with everything he said. Everyone can see you ignored my attempt to discuss even though you said things I didn't like the sound of. Based on these facts, one can only come to the conclusion that I am in fact willing to discuss and you are not. That isn't me just saying nuh uh and no you, that's me using logic and evidence, something I wish you would do.

Your only basis for going on this pointless butthurt tangent is a vague "but your post history!" Ok, what about it? Once again you need to explain and provide examples of supposed ignorance n bigotry rather than expecting everyone to just immediately agree with you.

"I want you to not be ignorant and bigoted." You really believe calling people ignorant n bigoted with zero explanation is an effective way to get them to stop, let alone even realize that they are ignorant n bigoted? Surely you know that ignorant means lacking information, so anything less than providing said information is going to do absolutely nothing to help your cause.

With your "I bet you're the kind of person" spiel, basically calling me a racist nazi, you've solidified your irrationality. I suspected as much as early as your first post, yet I still tried to get information from ya. You wanna act holier than thou but I'm the more tolerant and reasonable one here. It's pretty clear we're only having this conversation because my opinions upset you. You have no interest in learning my side nor even explaining yours, all you're doing here is trying to insult and discredit me, "he's a bigot so everything he says is automatically invalid and wrong!"

Unfortunately there's a lot of people like you, but fortunately we're on the internet so I can very easily ignore if need be, but for now I still find you entertaining enough, your logic or rather lack thereof is fascinating. "I'll stop ignorance by not informing people!" haha.



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If half of you people took real issues as strongly as this is taken then we would live in a better world,calling eachother the scum of the earth on opinions over some entertainment is so useless.



Immersiveunreality said:
If half of you people took real issues as strongly as this is taken then we would live in a better world,calling eachother the scum of the earth on opinions over some entertainment is so useless.

You DO realize that having certain opinions about games and inclusion in said games is a pretty clear indicator of what a person is likely to do when voting or advocating, right? 

You're too passive. You have been pretty keen on complacency or inactivity. Guess what: That doesn't work. 



Alara317 said:
Immersiveunreality said:
If half of you people took real issues as strongly as this is taken then we would live in a better world,calling eachother the scum of the earth on opinions over some entertainment is so useless.

You DO realize that having certain opinions about games and inclusion in said games is a pretty clear indicator of what a person is likely to do when voting or advocating, right? 

You're too passive. You have been pretty keen on complacency or inactivity. Guess what: That doesn't work. 

And what you're doing does work? xD



Alara317 said:
Immersiveunreality said:
If half of you people took real issues as strongly as this is taken then we would live in a better world,calling eachother the scum of the earth on opinions over some entertainment is so useless.

You DO realize that having certain opinions about games and inclusion in said games is a pretty clear indicator of what a person is likely to do when voting or advocating, right? 

You're too passive. You have been pretty keen on complacency or inactivity. Guess what: That doesn't work. 

You do not know me,i'm anything but passive whenever i can help others being victimized and i even feel very strongly about helping them whenever they're in need of it.(kinda funny i have actually been beaten up a few times just to protect others from whatever you blame people for online)

Why do you think blaming others on the internet is anything close to important,and why do you think you can just call me passive because of me not wanting to partake in this bs that does not focus on solving problems?

No,i'm very active where it matters.(and to counter your condescending attitude towards me you could consider to be a bit more usefull yourself as you seem to be too passive in reality)

Being this active on the internet does not make anyone superior or better,at best it is lazy activism.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 29 July 2020

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Immersiveunreality said:
Alara317 said:

You DO realize that having certain opinions about games and inclusion in said games is a pretty clear indicator of what a person is likely to do when voting or advocating, right? 

You're too passive. You have been pretty keen on complacency or inactivity. Guess what: That doesn't work. 

You do not know me,i'm anything but passive whenever i can help others being victimized and i even feel very strongly about helping them whenever they're in need of it.(kinda funny i have actually been beaten up a few times just to protect others from whatever you blame people for online)

Why do you think blaming others on the internet is anything close to important,and why do you think you can just call me passive because of me not wanting to partake in this bs that does not focus on solving problems?

No,i'm very active where it matters.(and to counter your condescending attitude towards me you could consider to be a bit more usefull yourself as you seem to be too passive in reality)

OF course I don't know you, I can only go based on what I see on the forum and almost all of your comments I've seen are some variation on encouraging people not to act or not to 'jump to conclusions'. You're complacent, that's the most apt descriptor of the way you go about things on here. 

And for the record, I DO attend protests, I DO get involved with local politics, and I DO take an interest in actively doing something to better my community. And one thing I've learned in 12+ years in the system is that it's pretty easy to tell the early signs of bigotry and hate. One of the key factors in identifying potential radicals or potentially dangerous bigotry is how they act online and how they react. If someone is on facebook or Reddit or any other online forum (This one as well) vocally complaining about agendas and SJW nonsense, that's almost always an indicator that they're more likely to protest positive change in the real world as well. I've dedicated much of my life to understanding these factors, and your constant undermining of any efforts I or anyone else has taken to proactively fix the issue before it gets really bad is NOT helping. 

You are not helping. Complacency only helps the oppressors. 

I'm not being condescending and I'm not being complacent. I'm sick and tired of clearly bigoted behaviours being tolerated as 'normal' or in any way acceptable. I'm sick and tired of people worldwide waiting for Charlottesville or George Floyd or the Orlando Nightclub shooting for people to take action. I'm sick of 'thoughts and prayers' being enough. They say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You're here refusing to put in any preventative measures and complaining when the cure is too aggressive. 

You are not helping. Complacency only helps the oppressors. Stop being a hypocrite and stop acting like inaction is somehow the only noble course of action. Things need to change, and there are many ways to enact change. One of the best and earliest ways to enact that change is by altering public perception, which art can do. Games like The Last of Us might appear to glorify violence, but the visuals and that sinking feeling you get in your gut are exactly how they plan on making some people realize how terrible things are. It makes you uncomfortable, which is why it's effective but also why it's pissed so many people off. The whole lesbian and trans issue in the game is literally an example of normalizing this sort of thing, and it makes people blow a fucking gasket then wiggle around to justify their hate. This entire thread is a testament to how far people will go to justify hate and devalue any attempts people make to try and make the world a better place. 

I definitely don't think you're a bigot (none of your posts support hate or ignorance), but you're exactly the kind of person who is just getting in the way by crying about both sides being hateful and violent. Your 'take no action until it's too late' behaviour is making things worse and you're just obstructing progress in either direction. You can say you're active all you want in the real world, but all I have to go on is what you post on the forum here and every post I've seen of yours on the topic basically boils down to willingly turning a blind eye to any preventative or progressive actions. I reiterate, I don't think you're a bad person and I don't get the impression you're trying to encourage bigotry or anything, but you need to know your behaviour and stance on so many issues is NOT helping the way you think it is. 



Alara317 said:
Immersiveunreality said:

You do not know me,i'm anything but passive whenever i can help others being victimized and i even feel very strongly about helping them whenever they're in need of it.(kinda funny i have actually been beaten up a few times just to protect others from whatever you blame people for online)

Why do you think blaming others on the internet is anything close to important,and why do you think you can just call me passive because of me not wanting to partake in this bs that does not focus on solving problems?

No,i'm very active where it matters.(and to counter your condescending attitude towards me you could consider to be a bit more usefull yourself as you seem to be too passive in reality)

OF course I don't know you, I can only go based on what I see on the forum and almost all of your comments I've seen are some variation on encouraging people not to act or not to 'jump to conclusions'. You're complacent, that's the most apt descriptor of the way you go about things on here. 

And for the record, I DO attend protests, I DO get involved with local politics, and I DO take an interest in actively doing something to better my community. And one thing I've learned in 12+ years in the system is that it's pretty easy to tell the early signs of bigotry and hate. One of the key factors in identifying potential radicals or potentially dangerous bigotry is how they act online and how they react. If someone is on facebook or Reddit or any other online forum (This one as well) vocally complaining about agendas and SJW nonsense, that's almost always an indicator that they're more likely to protest positive change in the real world as well. I've dedicated much of my life to understanding these factors, and your constant undermining of any efforts I or anyone else has taken to proactively fix the issue before it gets really bad is NOT helping. 

You are not helping. Complacency only helps the oppressors. 

I'm not being condescending and I'm not being complacent. I'm sick and tired of clearly bigoted behaviours being tolerated as 'normal' or in any way acceptable. I'm sick and tired of people worldwide waiting for Charlottesville or George Floyd or the Orlando Nightclub shooting for people to take action. I'm sick of 'thoughts and prayers' being enough. They say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You're here refusing to put in any preventative measures and complaining when the cure is too aggressive. 

You are not helping. Complacency only helps the oppressors. Stop being a hypocrite and stop acting like inaction is somehow the only noble course of action. Things need to change, and there are many ways to enact change. One of the best and earliest ways to enact that change is by altering public perception, which art can do. Games like The Last of Us might appear to glorify violence, but the visuals and that sinking feeling you get in your gut are exactly how they plan on making some people realize how terrible things are. It makes you uncomfortable, which is why it's effective but also why it's pissed so many people off. The whole lesbian and trans issue in the game is literally an example of normalizing this sort of thing, and it makes people blow a fucking gasket then wiggle around to justify their hate. This entire thread is a testament to how far people will go to justify hate and devalue any attempts people make to try and make the world a better place. 

I definitely don't think you're a bigot (none of your posts support hate or ignorance), but you're exactly the kind of person who is just getting in the way by crying about both sides being hateful and violent. Your 'take no action until it's too late' behaviour is making things worse and you're just obstructing progress in either direction. You can say you're active all you want in the real world, but all I have to go on is what you post on the forum here and every post I've seen of yours on the topic basically boils down to willingly turning a blind eye to any preventative or progressive actions. I reiterate, I don't think you're a bad person and I don't get the impression you're trying to encourage bigotry or anything, but you need to know your behaviour and stance on so many issues is NOT helping the way you think it is. 

Progressive actions? The progressive actions in your posts are nonexistent and you just add to tribalism in an online space.

I do understand your point of view and i do not think it is a healthy way to deal with problems for others and for yourself,i have had this behaviour myself before and i have grown out of it cause all it did was pulling me down and creating more conflicts.

Do you think you can fight bigotry with calling names and do you think you wont give bigotry more reasons to behave the way it does by doing so?

Try to put effort in changing people for the better without acting vindictive towards them and you will get better results,you might actually have a chance at changing someones bigoted view on others.

(outside of this different view on things between us i do not mean to offend you in any way and i do think you are a good person so please keep that in mind)



Immersiveunreality said:

Progressive actions? The progressive actions in your posts are nonexistent and you just add to tribalism in an online space.

I do understand your point of view and i do not think it is a healthy way to deal with problems for others and for yourself,i have had this behaviour myself before and i have grown out of it cause all it did was pulling me down and creating more conflicts.

Do you think you can fight bigotry with calling names and do you think you wont give bigotry more reasons to behave the way it does by doing so?

Try to put effort in changing people for the better without acting vindictive towards them and you will get better results,you might actually have a chance at changing someones bigoted view on others.

(outside of this different view on things between us i do not mean to offend you in any way and i do think you are a good person so please keep that in mind)

I hope you are just talking in a way so that he reponds to you and are not implying that anything I said is actual bigotry. 



Immersiveunreality said:
Alara317 said:

OF course I don't know you, I can only go based on what I see on the forum and almost all of your comments I've seen are some variation on encouraging people not to act or not to 'jump to conclusions'. You're complacent, that's the most apt descriptor of the way you go about things on here. 

And for the record, I DO attend protests, I DO get involved with local politics, and I DO take an interest in actively doing something to better my community. And one thing I've learned in 12+ years in the system is that it's pretty easy to tell the early signs of bigotry and hate. One of the key factors in identifying potential radicals or potentially dangerous bigotry is how they act online and how they react. If someone is on facebook or Reddit or any other online forum (This one as well) vocally complaining about agendas and SJW nonsense, that's almost always an indicator that they're more likely to protest positive change in the real world as well. I've dedicated much of my life to understanding these factors, and your constant undermining of any efforts I or anyone else has taken to proactively fix the issue before it gets really bad is NOT helping. 

You are not helping. Complacency only helps the oppressors. 

I'm not being condescending and I'm not being complacent. I'm sick and tired of clearly bigoted behaviours being tolerated as 'normal' or in any way acceptable. I'm sick and tired of people worldwide waiting for Charlottesville or George Floyd or the Orlando Nightclub shooting for people to take action. I'm sick of 'thoughts and prayers' being enough. They say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You're here refusing to put in any preventative measures and complaining when the cure is too aggressive. 

You are not helping. Complacency only helps the oppressors. Stop being a hypocrite and stop acting like inaction is somehow the only noble course of action. Things need to change, and there are many ways to enact change. One of the best and earliest ways to enact that change is by altering public perception, which art can do. Games like The Last of Us might appear to glorify violence, but the visuals and that sinking feeling you get in your gut are exactly how they plan on making some people realize how terrible things are. It makes you uncomfortable, which is why it's effective but also why it's pissed so many people off. The whole lesbian and trans issue in the game is literally an example of normalizing this sort of thing, and it makes people blow a fucking gasket then wiggle around to justify their hate. This entire thread is a testament to how far people will go to justify hate and devalue any attempts people make to try and make the world a better place. 

I definitely don't think you're a bigot (none of your posts support hate or ignorance), but you're exactly the kind of person who is just getting in the way by crying about both sides being hateful and violent. Your 'take no action until it's too late' behaviour is making things worse and you're just obstructing progress in either direction. You can say you're active all you want in the real world, but all I have to go on is what you post on the forum here and every post I've seen of yours on the topic basically boils down to willingly turning a blind eye to any preventative or progressive actions. I reiterate, I don't think you're a bad person and I don't get the impression you're trying to encourage bigotry or anything, but you need to know your behaviour and stance on so many issues is NOT helping the way you think it is. 

Progressive actions? The progressive actions in your posts are nonexistent and you just add to tribalism in an online space.

I do understand your point of view and i do not think it is a healthy way to deal with problems for others and for yourself,i have had this behaviour myself before and i have grown out of it cause all it did was pulling me down and creating more conflicts.

Do you think you can fight bigotry with calling names and do you think you wont give bigotry more reasons to behave the way it does by doing so?

Try to put effort in changing people for the better without acting vindictive towards them and you will get better results,you might actually have a chance at changing someones bigoted view on others.

(outside of this different view on things between us i do not mean to offend you in any way and i do think you are a good person so please keep that in mind)

Like I said, I've been doing this for 12 years. the ideal of peaceful agreement is nice when it works but an overwhelming majority of the time it doesn't. Ideally, I'd prefer if we could all discuss the pros and cons of each stance and come out better people in the end, but the reality is that people are naturally tribalistic and the more you tell them they're wrong - even if you're doing it with the best intentions, the best facts, and the best logic - the harder they'll work to stand their ground. Everyone THINKS they're openminded and willing to change, but almost no studies prove this to be the case. Almost everyone resists change and fights opposition, them being right or not is irrelevant. 

So, with that in mind, arguing with someone on the internet isn't so much about changing tHEIR minds - it never was since it's so rare for that to happen - but to change the narrative for those watching and observing, to sway the people on the sides who haven't made up their minds yet. 

And unfortunately, simple but wrong answers are SO much easier to accept than complicated, right answers. 

Take the 'black on black crime' argument that bigots like to tout. On the surface (and if you're already predisposed to bigotry) it's easy to see a stat about black on black crime being higher than black on white or white on black crime and say 'yep, those terrible blacks are just more predisposed to crime' and leave it at that. However, a single statistic doesn't explain WHY that might be, what factors were considered to get there, where the stat was from or the social fabric that allowed this to happen. It doesn't factor in the very real astroturfing of systemic racism, it doesn't factor in how for decades black people were forced into ghettos where they had less access to the means to help themselves and therefore were in tighter, more dangerous situations. The statistic might have some truth to it, but there's a lot more going into it. 

But to an observer of this argument, it's so, SO much easier to just see the stat, say 'yep, they're all bad people' and leave it at that. IT's the easier, shorter answer and thus the one that can be spoken louder and more repeatedly. The easier, wrong answer is the one that carries.

That's why it's so important to not be complacent. that's why education is so important. that's why it's so frustrating to see you and others so vehemently against taking action or loudly countering the wrong arguments and bigotry that people like LonelyDolphin are tacitly endorsing. Whether LoneyDolphin is a bigot or not, he's saying bigoted things. What he believes for real is irrelevant, because he's still saying 'AllLivesMatter'. And, to someone watching, that's a true statement. all lives do in fact matter. But that strips away all the nuance of why "BlackLivesMatter" is so important. He continually ignores the explanations on how it doesn't mean Black Lives matter More or ONLY black lives matter. IT doesn't mean white lives don't matter. He and others on this forum regularly ignore stuff like that because it's inconvenient and all they see is an insult against them or some weird sort of counterbalance that they think has gone too far in one direction. 

Again, the wrong answer and the wrong interpretation of the movement is what carries becuase it's easy to ignore the reality of the situation in lieu of 'yeah, all lives DO matter'. And that's why I won't interact with him. The more I get him to talk, the more he gets opportunities to push that inherently bigoted agenda. all I can really do with him is say 'you're wrong, and your views are bad' because anything more than that validates his viewpoint as somewhat justified. If I argue with him on a level playing field, it gives the impression to other onlookers that his stance on any of these matters has value. 

It doesn't. 

He's wrong, and you acting like I'm unethical for saying so gives him and his stance more power. 

THAT is why I'm so vocal about this stuff. 



Alara317 said:

That's why it's so important to not be complacent. that's why education is so important. that's why it's so frustrating to see you and others so vehemently against taking action or loudly countering the wrong arguments and bigotry that people like LonelyDolphin are tacitly endorsing. Whether LoneyDolphin is a bigot or not, he's saying bigoted things. What he believes for real is irrelevant, because he's still saying 'AllLivesMatter'. And, to someone watching, that's a true statement. all lives do in fact matter. But that strips away all the nuance of why "BlackLivesMatter" is so important. He continually ignores the explanations on how it doesn't mean Black Lives matter More or ONLY black lives matter. IT doesn't mean white lives don't matter. He and others on this forum regularly ignore stuff like that because it's inconvenient and all they see is an insult against them or some weird sort of counterbalance that they think has gone too far in one direction. 

Cute that you think not replying to me is going to stop me from calling you out on your bullshit for everyone to see. You think you can just falsely accuse me of bigotry, call me a racist nazi, and run away to talk about me behind my back? Ha! Well you are the same guy who claims flaming is an effective way to change minds... even though I'm still here and my mind hasn't changed. 

Firstly, believing all lives matter is pretty much the exact opposite of bigotry, but we already knew you have no idea what that word even means and are just throwing it around on a whim. Secondly, I never said that myself, in this thread or any other. While it'd be nice if it were true, frankly most people's lives don't matter in the grand scheme of things, mine certainly doesn't. Anywho, the bolded you've also pulled completely out your ass.

I don't expect you to bother trying to explain or prove anything you say, but for anyone who cares enough, you can go through my post history and see that such conversations never happened. I only had 1 short discussion involving BLM in the US politics thread which was about the movement's actions and not it's name. Naturally I don't care about sweet nothing names and phrases that everyone uses to gain favor, including evil oppressive forces. Actions speak louder than words and all that.

Also, I still love how you think spamming "no you're wrong I'm right because I say so!" like a child is somehow going to educate anyone or make you appear to be right to neutral onlookers, especially after you just got upset with a neutral onlooker for being a neutral onlooker. Your strategy is so laughably juvenile, I can't believe that's the best you could come up with after 12 years when it takes only 5 seconds to see how counterproductive it is. It's safe to say I've done more for social progress, as by using logic and reason I've convinced some people to see the error in their negative beliefs towards groups of people because, you know, these beliefs are based on a lack of information and understanding, namely the fact that we're all human. 

Bigots/racist/sexist/homophobes/etc. obviously put importance on division, on group association/race/gender/sexuality/etc. Therefore I push the notion that these things aren't important, that we're all the same. I was getting at this in my conversation with the-pi-guy. For you to still call me a bigot only shows you don't at all understand what you're supposedly fighting against, just using it as an excuse to openly flame people. You're not helping anyone, just inflating your own ego. "Look at me I'm making saving the world, my life is totally important, give me likes plz!" Well it is good entertainment so I wont tell you to stop haha.