Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 38 42.22%
 
Yes 52 57.78%
 
Total:90
DonFerrari said:
Runa216 said:
You know, disregarding the toxic discussion happening in this thread I have to ask: Why is it a bad thing to have an agenda? Most art does. Most artists have intentions when they create their art. If they choose to use their medium to help with trans/lesbian representation, I don't see how that's a bad thing at all. The only people who have a problem with that are bigots. If they choose to make a story about the nature of revenge and how it consumes you, then so be it. If they think that killing off a character makes sense in the context of the story, then that's their right as artists. IF they make you play as the bad guy/girl, then that's an interesting commentary on multiple viewpoints.

Getting angry about any of this shows more about the maturity of the lot of you than the quality of the game. You're perfectly entitled to be angry about these things, but just know that you don't get to also be pissed off when someone is critical of you in turn. Either criticism is allowed on both sides of the debate or it's not. You can't just cherry-pick what's convenient for you and get bent out of shape when something doesn't cater to your tastes.

And you really, really shouldn't be stirring up shit because a company has an agenda and is making moves to actively add inclusiveness in their stories. If you are, then it shows you're just not a good person and don't deserve to have your regressive, immature voice heard. I know that's not where this thread has been for most of its duration, but we all know damn well that like 90% of the hate this game gets is 'but lesbian! but (potential) trans woman! Bah! I hate it when companies try to push their SJW agenda!'

For me the only real issue with having an agenda is the same as being a fanboy or similar. Not being open with it or trying to deny you have.

If someone tell me he is a Xbox fanboy or an avocate for LGBTQI+ I'll take their opinion or facts at face value and may agree or not and will just discuss it. If a person say is neutral or similar but it is very clear that is a lie I know that the points are actually pretension so I can't take it at face value and have to double think on the intentions.

this is nothing like fanboyism. this isn't something superficial and stupid like preferring Marvel over DC or vice versa. This is literally a matter of normalizing things and making people's lives better. It's about ensuring marginalized groups aren't ostracized to the point of depression or suicide or that they aren't stigmatized enough to inspire murder or assault. 

This isn't some game analogy. This is real life, and that's where the difference lies. Politics are important becuase they literally are life-altering changes to people in need. So I repeat: what's bad about having a political agenda, especially when that agenda is 'normalizing LGBT+ members of the community for the sake of making them feel respected and included'?



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DonFerrari said:
SecondWar said:

Do you mean Lev? He's a trans-man, not a trans-woman.

Anyway, what I have found silly about the reaction to him actually comes from some members of the trans-community. Apparently, the character has been criticised for begin written by non-trans writers. I didn't realise that was a pre-condition, even though they seem to have gone to great lengths to do a fair portrayal.

They also got criticised for having the Seraphites using Lev's birth name. To me, this is realistic, as a hardcore religious cult isn't going to try to be respectful to Lev. It might not be pleasant, especially for trans-people, but it is realistic.

Yes I mean Lev, and yes he would be transman. Still people that think Abby is trans very clearly didn't play the game and even try to impose they have a great knowledge of it.

And you are right about the second paragraph. If Lev was expelled from Seraphites and sister was hanged to die then of course they have 0 acceptance for him so it would be ludicrous to expect they to call him Lev.

EricHiggin said:

AAA games aren't the exotic cars of the gaming industry? What other types of games have more time and money spent on their development?

If you want to change it to sports cars, that's fine to. Maybe more realistic for you but it's the same result in the end either way.

Sports cars are not high end popular forms of travel/transportation. They are simply high end vehicles.

Reasonable metrics? So like because the majority of woman tend to find tall men sexier, that means all tall men are sexy at all times, period? Certainly doesn't sound reasonable. I wonder why tall men bother to bathe?

I guess you missed the point. It is about the public you want to reach and not how much you put in the development that define if something is popular or niche.

You are still trying to do big fallacies. You tried to use the biggest seller and say anything that doesn't sell like it isn't popular, how does that make any sense?

So if any small dev team says they want to make a AAA game to reach that audience, with a budget of less than a million bucks, and a two year dev deadline, that game automatically becomes popular entertainment from that point forward? 

You mean Minecraft? I'd say it's popular entertainment but only because of it's positive reception and massive sales over time. Minecraft wasn't popular entertainment only weeks after it launched though.



Runa216 said:
DonFerrari said:

For me the only real issue with having an agenda is the same as being a fanboy or similar. Not being open with it or trying to deny you have.

If someone tell me he is a Xbox fanboy or an avocate for LGBTQI+ I'll take their opinion or facts at face value and may agree or not and will just discuss it. If a person say is neutral or similar but it is very clear that is a lie I know that the points are actually pretension so I can't take it at face value and have to double think on the intentions.

this is nothing like fanboyism. this isn't something superficial and stupid like preferring Marvel over DC or vice versa. This is literally a matter of normalizing things and making people's lives better. It's about ensuring marginalized groups aren't ostracized to the point of depression or suicide or that they aren't stigmatized enough to inspire murder or assault. 

This isn't some game analogy. This is real life, and that's where the difference lies. Politics are important becuase they literally are life-altering changes to people in need. So I repeat: what's bad about having a political agenda, especially when that agenda is 'normalizing LGBT+ members of the community for the sake of making them feel respected and included'?

I have been reading Stephen King a lot lately and i have been whining about him,he puts some sort of political agenda in his books but it is sometimes done in such a stereotypical way that it feels like he does not even try to understand the problems of some of the characters he is writing about.

It must be disheartening when it is rare to find yourself represented and when you do it is in an over the top stereotypical way,that is not normalizing but maybe the growing pains of ''culture'' still.

Not to speak about some of the straight relationships in his books were the female is scared alot,mostly is slower of mind,focussed on making sure the male eats good,and asks for the males confirmation to do some basic things while the male himself is the one just a bit better at most things and the bravest.

Intention is good ofcourse but please people, try to understand what you speak about or preach to really make sure people DO feel respected.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 12 July 2020

EricHiggin said:
DonFerrari said:

Yes I mean Lev, and yes he would be transman. Still people that think Abby is trans very clearly didn't play the game and even try to impose they have a great knowledge of it.

And you are right about the second paragraph. If Lev was expelled from Seraphites and sister was hanged to die then of course they have 0 acceptance for him so it would be ludicrous to expect they to call him Lev.

I guess you missed the point. It is about the public you want to reach and not how much you put in the development that define if something is popular or niche.

You are still trying to do big fallacies. You tried to use the biggest seller and say anything that doesn't sell like it isn't popular, how does that make any sense?

So if any small dev team says they want to make a AAA game to reach that audience, with a budget of less than a million bucks, and a two year dev deadline, that game automatically becomes popular entertainment from that point forward? 

You mean Minecraft? I'd say it's popular entertainment but only because of it's positive reception and massive sales over time. Minecraft wasn't popular entertainment only weeks after it launched though.

No it doesn't become popular because that is decided by the market, but it certainly is the objective of that dev. Not sure what kinda point you are trying to make that needs you making fallacies, distorting my point, reaching and making strawman all at once.

Runa216 said:
DonFerrari said:

For me the only real issue with having an agenda is the same as being a fanboy or similar. Not being open with it or trying to deny you have.

If someone tell me he is a Xbox fanboy or an avocate for LGBTQI+ I'll take their opinion or facts at face value and may agree or not and will just discuss it. If a person say is neutral or similar but it is very clear that is a lie I know that the points are actually pretension so I can't take it at face value and have to double think on the intentions.

this is nothing like fanboyism. this isn't something superficial and stupid like preferring Marvel over DC or vice versa. This is literally a matter of normalizing things and making people's lives better. It's about ensuring marginalized groups aren't ostracized to the point of depression or suicide or that they aren't stigmatized enough to inspire murder or assault. 

This isn't some game analogy. This is real life, and that's where the difference lies. Politics are important becuase they literally are life-altering changes to people in need. So I repeat: what's bad about having a political agenda, especially when that agenda is 'normalizing LGBT+ members of the community for the sake of making them feel respected and included'?

I won't enter this discussion on this because you really can't "normalize". Because being normal, is being the norm, being what is most common. And you just basically ignored the point made anyway.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:
EricHiggin said:

So if any small dev team says they want to make a AAA game to reach that audience, with a budget of less than a million bucks, and a two year dev deadline, that game automatically becomes popular entertainment from that point forward? 

You mean Minecraft? I'd say it's popular entertainment but only because of it's positive reception and massive sales over time. Minecraft wasn't popular entertainment only weeks after it launched though.

No it doesn't become popular because that is decided by the market, but it certainly is the objective of that dev. Not sure what kinda point you are trying to make that needs you making fallacies, distorting my point, reaching and making strawman all at once.

That's what I already had pointed out earlier, that the market/audience/consumers/people decide popularity. They can't do that until they've experienced it, had a chance to think it over, and voice their opinion. Individuals, or groups of them, who just decide/feel they want something to be a certain way, doesn't make it so.



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EricHiggin said:
DonFerrari said:

No it doesn't become popular because that is decided by the market, but it certainly is the objective of that dev. Not sure what kinda point you are trying to make that needs you making fallacies, distorting my point, reaching and making strawman all at once.

That's what I already had pointed out earlier, that the market/audience/consumers/people decide popularity. They can't do that until they've experienced it, had a chance to think it over, and voice their opinion. Individuals, or groups of them, who just decide/feel they want something to be a certain way, doesn't make it so.

And then said TLOU2 isn't popular?

Again something being popular and being designed to be popular are different thing. It's like music. Pop music is made to be popular, Indie aren't. Still you can have a pop music that isn't popular and an Indie that is. Still the intent and design was there.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

did they delete the 'some TLOU2 haters are crazy' thread? Can't find it on my buddy.



I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II

Runa216 said:
did they delete the 'some TLOU2 haters are crazy' thread? Can't find it on my buddy.

Yes seems like it,it would be nice to have a more clarified explanation for the cancellation of threads like these.

Any mods that want to chime in?



Immersiveunreality said:
Runa216 said:
did they delete the 'some TLOU2 haters are crazy' thread? Can't find it on my buddy.

Yes seems like it,it would be nice to have a more clarified explanation for the cancellation of threads like these.

Any mods that want to chime in?

Yeah guys, the thread is here.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/242812/some-tlou2-haters-are-nut-jobs-confirmed/2/#52

If you want to find threads that are locked, go to your post histories.

Guess we'll continue the topic here.

@Ka-pi96, @Dulfite, @Runa216, @d21lewis, @EnricoPallazzo, @DonFerrari, @shikamaru317, @YanisFromFrance

Last post was by immersiveunreality:

Ka-pi96 said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

This is an important point. A lot of people that demands equality wants it right now, while increasing you quality of life is something that takes generations to happen. My family is a mix of former slaves and italian immigrants. Both freaking poor to the point my mother refuses to talk about her childhood and my father says he had to sell stuff inside trains and polish other people shoes to survive. My father was thrown away from his house when my mother got pregnant as he was going to live with a black woman. My mother had to leave school when I got born. Also he used to sleep only 4 hours per day due to work and commuting. At some point one one of them could go to university so my mother was paying for my father university as he had more chance to make more money. Pretty miserable life in a miserable place. But due to hard work, making the right decisions, understanding their situation and how to get out of it they are able to become very successful in life and understanding they would have to let go of their youth years if they wanted to get somewhere. They had to make the decision of not studying what they wanted, but what would provide them a better life. My childhood was good but never got access to toys, travels, good clothes, nice food, nothing like that. My brother which is 8 years old had a much better life. I was able to keep the pace, making the right decisions and studying and achieving my own milestones despite being brown or mixed. I have a very good life today and my kids will have an even better one.

From a family of Italians fleeing the famine and former slaves, on the fourth generation we achieved a good life and only the fifth will start since the begginning in a good situation, already with some heritage money and some "status". And of course, it takes one generation of stupid decisions to burn through all that was conquered.

eh... not really.

Y'all just need to copy Europe. Get a proper welfare system set up, universal healthcare and free (or at least heavily subsidised) education and you've got a much better quality of life for poor people already. That doesn't have to take generations.

I too grew up poor, but European poor. As in my single father mostly worked part-time or not at all while I was growing up and the government supplemented his income so I never really wanted for anything. I might have to wait until a birthday or something but if I wanted something I'd generally get it. We had a free 2 bedroom house from the government (which my Dad converted into a 3 bedroom when my little brother was born). All healthcare was completely free. Public transport is good so even though most of the time my Dad couldn't afford a car we never needed one. Education was mostly free. Only had to "pay" anything at university level and that was just subisidised loans (due to my family being poor about 1/3 of it doesn't even count as a loan). They're also loans that don't really mean anything, they're not really debt and there's no pressure to pay them back. I recently had to fill out my income forms for the student loan company just to be told "nah, you're cool, you don't have to pay us any money" because I don't earn enough. And even if I did I'd only have to pay back a tiny percentage per month above the threshold that I earn.

Always had to share a bedroom with one of my sisters,not that convenient i tell you as it is important to have one place in the house that is your own imo.

Solo bedrooms gives so much more freedom like staying up late reading and stuff(always tried to read comics without irritating sis) :P

Last edited by padib - on 12 July 2020

Just beat the game, FINALLY.
Gonna need a day or two to read this thread. I might have a comment or two and I might not. Don't know. I feel satisfied with the game itself, though. Hell of a journey.



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