Forums - Sony Discussion - Grade the PS5 Conference

What's your score?

10 28 12.67%
 
9 55 24.89%
 
8 52 23.53%
 
7 30 13.57%
 
6 24 10.86%
 
5 15 6.79%
 
4 6 2.71%
 
3 6 2.71%
 
2 1 0.45%
 
1 4 1.81%
 
Total:221
Runa216 said:
TheMisterManGuy said:

Nobody has a problem with female protagonists, nobody's had a problem with it in the past. I think the problem is that whenever studios make a big deal about "Diversity" there's almost always a ulterior motive behind it. That's why people get weary of studios bragging about how diverse there characters are, because they make it seem like Race and gender are the only interesting things about a person, and that's not the case. And often times, they use it as a shield to deflect criticism of their crappy writing or storytelling. 

I have no problems with female representation or female protagonists, just as long as they're interesting characters first before anything else. Studios need to learn that nobody actually gives a shit about race or gender really. Ideas, personalities, and goals are what make good characters. 

I cannot help the blind to see. I especially can't educate the willfully ignorant. You are wrong, but so wrong I don't even know where to start to correct you so I'll just move on.

He"s not wrong...



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

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Runa216 said:

Oh, I have many, many arguments. Good ones. Great ones, even. What I don't have is the time to go into the level of detail needed to explain WHY they're good arguments. Furthermore, I don't believe for a second based on what you've written that you'll even consider the reality that I'm right and you're wrong. It literally doesn't matter what I say, you won't concede or even consider the possibility that you're wrong, your points are based off nonsense, and your stance is misguided at best and outright damaging at worst. 

Okay, let's hear them.

I have arguments, but laying them out in a concise, timely manner is not worth my time because I don't believe you possess the capacity to even consider a single thing I say. Literally everything I say will be met with you simply using it as a prompt to push another faulty agenda or incite another bit of logical fallacy so you can feel alive by arguing. 

Again, you're making broad generalizations because you don't actually want to discuss. If you want to disagree that's fine, but you should at least explain why you disagree with me. like twintail did, and I'll try and explain my points or maybe even agree on some of yours. 

Inclusion shouldn't be seen as an act of politics, it should be normalized. you disagree. your fundamental stance on the issue is one of subjugation and prejudice. Until you get out of that hole, we cannot have a decent conversation on the matter. 

If you were to actually read my posts, you would know that I was never against diversity. Just the fake, corporate diversity that brags about having a minority cast, and thinks that excuses them from writing a compelling characters. There's absolutely nothing wrong with protagonists who aren't straight white males, and people should have the freedom to write about whoever they want. But they should also make sure that these are characters first and foremost. Give them flaws, motivations, goals, personalities. These are the traits normal people actually look for in characters. This isn't even me pushing some "alt-right agenda" or whatever, it's basic writing 101. 

Stop trying to get a 'debate' out of me. All you're interested in is trolling me for responses to fuel your desire to argue a point; you have no interest in doing what's right or finding the truth. This never is or was about inclusion, it was always a political platform to cry about being repressed or underrepresented because gay characters went from 0.003% representation in the media and are like 2% now...which certain groups see as overrepresentation. This is because Females went from 5% to 8%. To some people, it's just an SJW agenda, and people who believe that cannot be argued with. 

And again, diversity isn't a bad thing so long as the characters are well written. I'm not against diversity, I'm against bad writing using diversity as a shield to deflect criticism, which ironically enough, it exactly what you're doing right now. 

Last edited by TheMisterManGuy - 6 days ago

Why the discussion over ND and their alleged agenda on the grade PS5 conference, on which ND didn't even had a game present?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

TheMisterManGuy said:
twintail said:

I don't get what you're trying to say.

You have no problem with female representation but games with female/ racial representation are done under the guise of ulterior motives... for reasons?

What I'm saying is, I'm always weary of people who go on and on about how "Diverse" their cast of characters are, because to me, more often than not, that signals that these characters have literally nothing else going for them besides their race or gender. It more of a marketing buzzword at that point. Human beings are much more complex than their chromosomes or skin color. I don't care if your character is black, gay, Asian whatever. Just focus on delivering a good narrative first. 

It's also annoying when people who rightfully call out bad writing or directing, get called bigots by the people behind the work. Showing that they're just using "Diversity" as a shield to deflect criticism, which is very unfair IMO.

Studios need to realise that ppl only care about the inner aspect of the character and not their outer looks? What?

They care about characters, not race or gender. For example, Nobody likes Black Widow in the Avengers films solely because she's a female superhero. People like Black Widow because she's an interesting and fun Superhero who happens to be female. The point is, "Diversity" had never really been a problem in entertainment in for a while. Writers and Directors were able to look past race or gender and just tell good stories with good characters, who just so happen to be Female or a particular race.

To me this sounds like an ALM vs BLM argument (the former completely missing the point of the latter).  Saying that ppl don't care about the appearance of the character (which is factually incorrect considering how popular create-a-character options are) only goes to undermine the push for better representation of people and culture, as if a black female character means nothing unless she has perfect writing to suit her. Because changing the character to a white male is now ok? 

I didn't say they don't care about appearance. What I'm saying is most people don't get so caught up over whether their race or gender is "represented" or not. People just want well written and appealing characters at the end of the day. If you want to write about a black protagonist, or female protagonist, that's fine. But make them compelling human beings first before anything else. 

Like, you can't argue that the appearance doesn't matter, then we ought to just have invisible people as main characters. If white male characters can be represented with good and bad writing, why shouldn't other race/ gender combinations not be seen as viable for the same thing?

Nobody's saying they aren't viable. But what I'm saying is that make the characters whatever race or gender you want, but make sure you give people well written characters first before anything else. 

1) I'm going to need some examples of 'diversity' being marketing more than anything else.

2) BW is one of the more pointless characters from the Avengers. A lot of her appeal happens to be her actress, a good looking white woman.

3) Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree on that. 'If you want to write about a black protagonist, or female protagonist, that's fine. But make them compelling human beings first before anything else.'.

So if they aren't written as compelling human beings, just automatically make them a white guy? Because, white guy protagonists don't need to be written well, just use them for all cases whereas female and ppl of colour characters must pass a special checklist to ensure they are viable to be main characters.

yeah... ok. 

DonFerrari said:
Why the discussion over ND and their alleged agenda on the grade PS5 conference, on which ND didn't even had a game present?

When they show off Factions MP in August it is going to be glorious Don. Just glorious!!!!



twintail said:
TheMisterManGuy said:

What I'm saying is, I'm always weary of people who go on and on about how "Diverse" their cast of characters are, because to me, more often than not, that signals that these characters have literally nothing else going for them besides their race or gender. It more of a marketing buzzword at that point. Human beings are much more complex than their chromosomes or skin color. I don't care if your character is black, gay, Asian whatever. Just focus on delivering a good narrative first. 

It's also annoying when people who rightfully call out bad writing or directing, get called bigots by the people behind the work. Showing that they're just using "Diversity" as a shield to deflect criticism, which is very unfair IMO.

Studios need to realise that ppl only care about the inner aspect of the character and not their outer looks? What?

They care about characters, not race or gender. For example, Nobody likes Black Widow in the Avengers films solely because she's a female superhero. People like Black Widow because she's an interesting and fun Superhero who happens to be female. The point is, "Diversity" had never really been a problem in entertainment in for a while. Writers and Directors were able to look past race or gender and just tell good stories with good characters, who just so happen to be Female or a particular race.

To me this sounds like an ALM vs BLM argument (the former completely missing the point of the latter).  Saying that ppl don't care about the appearance of the character (which is factually incorrect considering how popular create-a-character options are) only goes to undermine the push for better representation of people and culture, as if a black female character means nothing unless she has perfect writing to suit her. Because changing the character to a white male is now ok? 

I didn't say they don't care about appearance. What I'm saying is most people don't get so caught up over whether their race or gender is "represented" or not. People just want well written and appealing characters at the end of the day. If you want to write about a black protagonist, or female protagonist, that's fine. But make them compelling human beings first before anything else. 

Like, you can't argue that the appearance doesn't matter, then we ought to just have invisible people as main characters. If white male characters can be represented with good and bad writing, why shouldn't other race/ gender combinations not be seen as viable for the same thing?

Nobody's saying they aren't viable. But what I'm saying is that make the characters whatever race or gender you want, but make sure you give people well written characters first before anything else. 

1) I'm going to need some examples of 'diversity' being marketing more than anything else.

2) BW is one of the more pointless characters from the Avengers. A lot of her appeal happens to be her actress, a good looking white woman.

3) Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree on that. 'If you want to write about a black protagonist, or female protagonist, that's fine. But make them compelling human beings first before anything else.'.

So if they aren't written as compelling human beings, just automatically make them a white guy? Because, white guy protagonists don't need to be written well, just use them for all cases whereas female and ppl of colour characters must pass a special checklist to ensure they are viable to be main characters.

yeah... ok. 

DonFerrari said:
Why the discussion over ND and their alleged agenda on the grade PS5 conference, on which ND didn't even had a game present?

When they show off Factions MP in August it is going to be glorious Don. Just glorious!!!!

Nahhh I don't like MP games, so yes it will have a lot of hype but it won't ring me a bell.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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twintail said:

1) I'm going to need some examples of 'diversity' being marketing more than anything else.

The biggest one is the Disney Star Wars Trilogy, The Last Jedi especially. Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson banged on and on about how diverse their new films were, yet the Disney trilogy has some of the most one-dimensional main characters in the entire series. And when fans were criticizing The Last Jedi, staff at Lucasfilm and the media attacked them calling them bigots and racists for not blindly accepting the garbage writing. Showing that "Diversity" in this case, is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover up poor writing. Again, Diversity on its own isn't bad, but once you spend more time braging about Diversity instead of writing a good narrative, then people are going to call you out on it. 

2) BW is one of the more pointless characters from the Avengers. A lot of her appeal happens to be her actress, a good looking white woman.

Okay, then how about Ripley from the Aliens franchise, often hailed as one of the best written characters in all of cinema. Point is, there's plenty of examples of good female protagonists in the past. Nobody had a problem with it before. This is why when I see people complain about the lack of "Diversity" in games or entertainment, I just roll my eyes because to me, they're complaining about an issue that never actually existed, at least not in recent times. 

3) Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree on that. 'If you want to write about a black protagonist, or female protagonist, that's fine. But make them compelling human beings first before anything else.'.

So if they aren't written as compelling human beings, just automatically make them a white guy? Because, white guy protagonists don't need to be written well, just use them for all cases whereas female and ppl of colour characters must pass a special checklist to ensure they are viable to be main characters.

yeah... ok. 

What I'm saying is that human beings should judge each other based on content of character, not on their gender or color of skin. The same argument applies to white male characters as well. White or not, if your protagonist is bland and uninteresting, then why the hell are we following him? Bring in somebody who has a personality. 

My point is that, creators should not get so worked up about whether their character is the right race or not. Just write characters first, then pick whatever race or gender you feel like making them. I don't care if its black, white or whatever. Give me protagonists I can be engaged with. 

Last edited by TheMisterManGuy - 6 days ago

TheMisterManGuy said:
twintail said:

1) I'm going to need some examples of 'diversity' being marketing more than anything else.

The biggest one is the Disney Star Wars Trilogy, The Last Jedi especially. Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson banged on and on about how diverse their new films were, yet the Disney trilogy has some of the most one-dimensional main characters in the entire series. And when fans were criticizing The Last Jedi, staff at Lucasfilm and the media attacked them calling them bigots and racists for not blindly accepting the garbage writing. Showing that "Diversity" in this case, is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover up poor writing. Again, Diversity on its own isn't bad, but once you spend more time braging about Diversity instead of writing a good narrative, then people are going to call you out on it. 

2) BW is one of the more pointless characters from the Avengers. A lot of her appeal happens to be her actress, a good looking white woman.

Okay, then how about Ripley from the Aliens franchise, often hailed as one of the best written characters in all of cinema. Point is, there's plenty of examples of good female protagonists in the past. Nobody had a problem with it before. This is why when I see people complain about the lack of "Diversity" in games or entertainment, I just roll my eyes because to me, they're complaining about an issue that never actually existed, at least not in recent times. 

3) Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree on that. 'If you want to write about a black protagonist, or female protagonist, that's fine. But make them compelling human beings first before anything else.'.

So if they aren't written as compelling human beings, just automatically make them a white guy? Because, white guy protagonists don't need to be written well, just use them for all cases whereas female and ppl of colour characters must pass a special checklist to ensure they are viable to be main characters.

yeah... ok. 

What I'm saying is that human beings should judge each other based on content of character, not on their gender or color of skin. The same argument applies to white male characters as well. White or not, if your protagonist is bland and uninteresting, then why the hell are we following him? Bring in somebody who has a personality. 

My point is that, creators should not get so worked up about whether their character is the right race or not. Just write characters first, then pick whatever race or gender you feel like making them. I don't care if its black, white or whatever. Give me protagonists I can be engaged with. 

Calling out diversity just because of poor writing seems in bad faith to me tbh. Poor writing is poor writing. The cast could have all been white and it would have still been poor writing. The diversity angle literally means nothing when the critique is the lack of better writing ability, unless you have some kind of agenda against diversity in the first place. Framing the argument that a company like Disney were proud to promote diversity, but failed to make good characters out of them, can only be done in bad faith, in my opinion.

If diversity was not highlighted, does the argument become only poor writing? Then why does it not just remain that way even with the promotion of diversity?

If Disney had promoted an all white cast, does the argument remain the same as you are claiming about the promotion of a diverse cast (in this case a lack thereof)? 

The fundamental criticism in all 3 scenarios is the bad writing; the promotion of the cast diversity, or lack of, is completely inconsequential, unless you have an agenda.

2nd, the core tenet of arguing for diversity is not that diversity doesn't exist period, but rather that there is a large inequality in terms of representation. Cinema and TV have been around longer than video games, and claiming that equal diversity exists in the gaming sphere would would likely wrong. In the last 20 narrative games I've played, 14 were white male protagonists. Have yours been more equally diverse?

Finally, if your argument is that all game characters should be well written, then why have you been proposing that female characters and people of color should only be the main character if they are well written? 

These are 2 fundamentally very different arguments being made. The former doesn't even require diversity, gender, or race to even be part of the conversation because it is a naturally inclusive concept in the first place. All characters should be written well. 

The latter, however, only serves to achieve the underlying message that male white characters don't need to be well written. 



twintail said:

Calling out diversity just because of poor writing seems in bad faith to me tbh. Poor writing is poor writing. The cast could have all been white and it would have still been poor writing. The diversity angle literally means nothing when the critique is the lack of better writing ability, unless you have some kind of agenda against diversity in the first place. Framing the argument that a company like Disney were proud to promote diversity, but failed to make good characters out of them, can only be done in bad faith, in my opinion.

I agree with this. Even if all the characters were white and male, TLJ would still be panned by fans for its disrespect of the original trilogy.

If diversity was not highlighted, does the argument become only poor writing? Then why does it not just remain that way even with the promotion of diversity?

The problem is that the people behind new Star Wars and the media are only using "diversity" as a cover-up to disguise the films' poor quality. Attacking anybody who doesn't like The Last Jedi or Rey as misogynists' or racists. In reality, they made a bad film and are too high on their own ego to see what fans are complaining about. 

If Disney had promoted an all white cast, does the argument remain the same as you are claiming about the promotion of a diverse cast (in this case a lack thereof)? 

Yes. Like I said, replace the main characters with White Males, and you still get the same crappy, haphazard storytelling and asspull writing. It'd be the same shit, different skin. 

The fundamental criticism in all 3 scenarios is the bad writing; the promotion of the cast diversity, or lack of, is completely inconsequential, unless you have an agenda.

Correct. Nobody has a problem with a diverse cast. The problem is when the people in charge start overpromoting that fact to compensate for a lack of quality, then attack everyone who dislikes the film for being supposed bigots'. It's a thought policing tactic. "You WILL love this movie, or else you are a horrible person!" It's condescending, and that's what annoys people. Don't try and shame me into liking a crappy film just because it has "Strong independent women" in it. I don't care if it has straight white males either, if I don't like it, I don't like it, plain and simple. 

If this was really about diversity, then the people making these films would focus on the quality of the work, and cast people who just happen to be minorities. Even if the film doesn't end up being great, nobody would have a problem if these directors, writers, or producers didn't get preachy about their diversity, and start attacking fans who dare to offer a different opinion.

2nd, the core tenet of arguing for diversity is not that diversity doesn't exist period, but rather that there is a large inequality in terms of representation. Cinema and TV have been around longer than video games, and claiming that equal diversity exists in the gaming sphere would would likely wrong. In the last 20 narrative games I've played, 14 were white male protagonists. Have yours been more equally diverse?

I certainly understand the basic premise of the argument. Different races exist, so why not write about them? I do agree with the idea on that core fundamental. I've said it before, but people should be allowed to write about whoever they want. That said, I don't believe wanting to see more minority races, should come at the expense of others. Real Diversity, is when all types of people have equal opportunity. There's nothing wrong with Straight white male protagonists, and there's nothing wrong with gay protagonists either. 

The thing I can't stand with the diversity argument, is when people claim that being straight, white, and male is somehow a problem today, when its not. Just like how Female Protagonists have never been a problem before, straight white male protagonists have never been a problem, and never will be a problem. Just because you want to see more black protagonists in games, that doesn't mean you have to tear down white male characters to make it happen. Just make a good video game that happens to have a black protagonist. 

Finally, if your argument is that all game characters should be well written, then why have you been proposing that female characters and people of color should only be the main character if they are well written? 

That's not really what I'm saying. What I'm talking about is, don't brag about how diverse your characters are if you can't back it up with a quality product. There are poorly written black or female characters in entertainment, and nobody would have a big problem with that normally. But if you start saying that we can't criticize the writing for these characters solely because they're of a different race or gender, than naturally people are going to call you out on that.

It goes back to what I said, People don't want to be essentially blackmailed into liking something. We're tired of being called racists and sexists because we rightfully criticize crappy writing. 

All characters should be written well. 

Agreed, and I wouldn't normally be upset if black or female characters in a game or story were bland or uninteresting. I'd be disappointed, but not mad. What I'm trying to say is that, don't call me sexist just because I don't enjoy your poor writing choices. Diversity isn't a problem, studios calling us Nazis if we don't like their games is. 



TheMisterManGuy said:
twintail said:

Calling out diversity just because of poor writing seems in bad faith to me tbh. Poor writing is poor writing. The cast could have all been white and it would have still been poor writing. The diversity angle literally means nothing when the critique is the lack of better writing ability, unless you have some kind of agenda against diversity in the first place. Framing the argument that a company like Disney were proud to promote diversity, but failed to make good characters out of them, can only be done in bad faith, in my opinion.

I agree with this. Even if all the characters were white and male, TLJ would still be panned by fans for its disrespect of the original trilogy.

If diversity was not highlighted, does the argument become only poor writing? Then why does it not just remain that way even with the promotion of diversity?

The problem is that the people behind new Star Wars and the media are only using "diversity" as a cover-up to disguise the films' poor quality. Attacking anybody who doesn't like The Last Jedi or Rey as misogynists' or racists. In reality, they made a bad film and are too high on their own ego to see what fans are complaining about. 

If Disney had promoted an all white cast, does the argument remain the same as you are claiming about the promotion of a diverse cast (in this case a lack thereof)? 

Yes. Like I said, replace the main characters with White Males, and you still get the same crappy, haphazard storytelling and asspull writing. It'd be the same shit, different skin. 

The fundamental criticism in all 3 scenarios is the bad writing; the promotion of the cast diversity, or lack of, is completely inconsequential, unless you have an agenda.

Correct. Nobody has a problem with a diverse cast. The problem is when the people in charge start overpromoting that fact to compensate for a lack of quality, then attack everyone who dislikes the film for being supposed bigots'. It's a thought policing tactic. "You WILL love this movie, or else you are a horrible person!" It's condescending, and that's what annoys people. Don't try and shame me into liking a crappy film just because it has "Strong independent women" in it. I don't care if it has straight white males either, if I don't like it, I don't like it, plain and simple. 

If this was really about diversity, then the people making these films would focus on the quality of the work, and cast people who just happen to be minorities. Even if the film doesn't end up being great, nobody would have a problem if these directors, writers, or producers didn't get preachy about their diversity, and start attacking fans who dare to offer a different opinion.

2nd, the core tenet of arguing for diversity is not that diversity doesn't exist period, but rather that there is a large inequality in terms of representation. Cinema and TV have been around longer than video games, and claiming that equal diversity exists in the gaming sphere would would likely wrong. In the last 20 narrative games I've played, 14 were white male protagonists. Have yours been more equally diverse?

I certainly understand the basic premise of the argument. Different races exist, so why not write about them? I do agree with the idea on that core fundamental. I've said it before, but people should be allowed to write about whoever they want. That said, I don't believe wanting to see more minority races, should come at the expense of others. Real Diversity, is when all types of people have equal opportunity. There's nothing wrong with Straight white male protagonists, and there's nothing wrong with gay protagonists either. 

The thing I can't stand with the diversity argument, is when people claim that being straight, white, and male is somehow a problem today, when its not. Just like how Female Protagonists have never been a problem before, straight white male protagonists have never been a problem, and never will be a problem. Just because you want to see more black protagonists in games, that doesn't mean you have to tear down white male characters to make it happen. Just make a good video game that happens to have a black protagonist. 

Finally, if your argument is that all game characters should be well written, then why have you been proposing that female characters and people of color should only be the main character if they are well written? 

That's not really what I'm saying. What I'm talking about is, don't brag about how diverse your characters are if you can't back it up with a quality product. There are poorly written black or female characters in entertainment, and nobody would have a big problem with that normally. But if you start saying that we can't criticize the writing for these characters solely because they're of a different race or gender, than naturally people are going to call you out on that.

It goes back to what I said, People don't want to be essentially blackmailed into liking something. We're tired of being called racists and sexists because we rightfully criticize crappy writing. 

All characters should be written well. 

Agreed, and I wouldn't normally be upset if black or female characters in a game or story were bland or uninteresting. I'd be disappointed, but not mad. What I'm trying to say is that, don't call me sexist just because I don't enjoy your poor writing choices. Diversity isn't a problem, studios calling us Nazis if we don't like their games is. 

We have been able to dash and criticize white male in any media with big freedom, but when it is considered minority then criticizing is shunned. That sums what you said.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

All I'll say here is wow; so many people are putting SO much effort to twist things around to push their agendas. IT's funny how transparent some of you are.



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