Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox Series X's cross-gen approach is robbing players of the next-gen thrill

Conina said:
Otter said:

This is more in relation to models and poly counts though? Pretty sure its the textures, Audio and video that take up all of the space in game files.

But the textures for that PS5 demo were much bigger than for normal PS4 Pro or XBO X games:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-unreal-engine-5-playstation-5-tech-demo-analysis

"Unreal Engine supports Virtual Texturing, which means we can texture our models with many 8K textures without overloading the GPU." Jerome Platteaux, Epic's special projects art director, told Digital Foundry. He says that each asset has 8K texture for base colour, another 8K texture for metalness/roughness and a final 8K texture for the normal map. But this isn't a traditional normal map used to approximate higher detail, but rather a tiling texture for surface details.

"For example, the statue of the warrior that you can see in the temple is made of eight pieces (head, torso, arms, legs, etc). Each piece has a set of three textures (base colour, metalness/roughness, and normal maps for tiny scratches). So, we end up with eight sets of 8K textures, for a total of 24 8K textures for one statue alone," he adds."

Ah, I see. Thanks. Yeah, I think they'll still have to play very carefully with management of textures. I think Nanite will be super powerful for the modelling workstream though and i think its a much bigger drain on time and resources then compressing textures.



Around the Network
goopy20 said:

Didn't Unreal 4 already have dynamic global illumination? I remember it was just too expensive for current gen consoles, so they ended up replacing it with a number of graphical effects that were less demanding. We will see, but I got a feeling that path tracing, like we're seeing in Minecraft, is a bridge too far for next gen consoles, at least when we're talking graphically demanding games. I hope I'm wrong, though, and maybe we will see some smaller scale games using it, or games running in 1080p. I mean Series X should be better at handling Ray Tracing than the ps5, but they also had to go with 1080p just to run Minecraft. My guess is that for path tracing we're going to need at least a RTX3*** gpu. However, Dynamic Global Illumination like Lumen looks like a fantastic alternative for next gen consoles, as its far less resource heavy than full blown path tracing.  

It sure did.
However, not all implementations of Global Illumination is the same.

The number of light bounces will severely impact your performance.

goopy20 said:

To me the SSD enabled tech does sound like it will the biggest break-through next gen when we're talking about consoles. Me thinks we'll see a much bigger leap than going from ps3 to ps4, because of it. But I also think it will be a much bigger limiting factor in cross-gen titles that still have to run on a HDD compared to just having a weaker gpu. Scaling things on the gpu side is one thing, but scaling the entire world design is going to be a different matter entirely.     

Well. It's not really a break through per-sey. The technology has existed for over a decade, just the mass-produced lowest-common denominators (Consoles) couldn't afford to have the technology until it became more affordable thanks to scales of economy afforded by PC and Mobile devices.

Storage transfer rates stagnated on consoles for years... If we had kept improving storage speed at the same rate as Ram since the Nintendo 64... The Playstation 5 would have an SSD with 228GB/s... Now think of what that could potentially do for game world possibilities.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Conina said:
goopy20 said:

I think, not having to scale assets, will benefit developers of all shapes and sizes. It will be great for Indie developers working with a limited budget, but AAA games should also benefit greatly on the creative side. Just having a massive leap in assets variation alone is going to be a major game changer and should make for much more interesting and immersive world design. 

Not scaling down assets in advance will probably also let the file sizes of games explode.

Unfortunately Epic games didin't tell use, how many GB storage space were necessary for that 9-minute demo on the PS5 dev kit and how much necessary storage space we can expect for a full-sized 20-hour AAA game with unscaled assets.

I wonder if at least 4 "nanite-like" AAA games will fit on the 825 GB SSD (so less than 200 GB on average per game).

True, storage will probably be an issue with the launch models. It was the same thing with the ps3/ps4 and why they released models with bigger HDD's later on.

However, you have to keep in mind that duplicate assets will be a thing of the past, there will be much better compression in hardware, and you will be able to install parts of a game. It'll depend on how ambitious the game is, but overall they might actually be smaller than we're seeing now. 



goopy20 said:

However, you have to keep in mind that duplicate assets will be a thing of the past, there will be much better compression in hardware, and you will be able to install parts of a game. It'll depend on how ambitious the game is, but overall they might actually be smaller than we're seeing now. 

So where is the rest of the game when you only have installed a part of the game, when you reach the next level or load a savegame in a totally different part of the game?

Will the suddenly needed part then be installed from the optical disk with 0.02 - 0.05 GB/s (20 - 50 MB/s and very bad seeking speeds on the disc) or from the internet servers with 0.001 - 0.1 GB/s (1 - 100 MB/s)?

And how much is "much better compression"? 2x or 3x of current compression techniques? More? Less?

I'm also getting mixed signals about the advantages of the 5.5 GB/s PS5 SSDs compared to the 2.4 GB/s XBO SSDs or even slower NVME or SATA SSDs... will the needed data transfers per area of the games be huge (so the faster SSD is in advantage by speed but in disadvantage by capacity) or won't the needed data transfers grow compared to current gen systems due to better compression (so slower SSDs are still "good enough" to load the assets fast)?

You can't have it both ways.



goopy20 said:
Pemalite said:

Just keep in mind that Lumin and Nanite are separate technologies, they augment each other, sure.
But lumin isn't even the best of lighting technologies we have right now or even the best lighting supported in Unreal Engine 5, more intensive lighting can potentially make it look even better, that is entirely up to developer discretion of course and what their particular goals are.

And you are right, one of Nanites advantages is not having developers scale/rebuild assets, the engine does it, this will benefit indie/A/AA developers the most, suddenly they are going to be able to focus their limited resources on more impactful aspects of their games.

Ray Tracing is one of the biggest features of next-gen consoles, that isn't even in doubt.

Lumin is Ray Traced lighting. The demo even used Ray Tracing.

You don't need to exchange money to actually sell something.

Epic in this instance however most certainly does gain financially out of the promotion of the Unreal Engine, lets not kid ourselves here.

Bandwidth bottlenecks between Storage and Ram will still exist, it just won't be as pronounced as the 8th gen which stagnated on that front... We aren't at a point where we can fill the Ram 30x in 1 second like with the Nintendo 64 or where carts are 1/2 the bandwidth of the Ram.

But it does open up a ton of extra opportunities that spinning hard drives would have prevented, absolutely no doubt.

But SSD's aren't the second coming of Jesus, they don't process data, they simply allow developers to be more efficient with their memory use, it cannot entirely replace Ram.

Didn't Unreal 4 already have dynamic global illumination? I remember it was just too expensive for current gen consoles, so they ended up replacing it with a number of graphical effects that were less demanding. We will see, but I got a feeling that path tracing, like we're seeing in Minecraft, is a bridge too far for next gen consoles, at least when we're talking graphically demanding games. I hope I'm wrong, though, and maybe we will see some smaller scale games using it, or games running in 1080p. I mean Series X should be better at handling Ray Tracing than the ps5, but they also had to go with 1080p just to run Minecraft. My guess is that for path tracing we're going to need at least a RTX3*** gpu. However, Dynamic Global Illumination like Lumen looks like a fantastic alternative for next gen consoles, as its far less resource heavy than full blown path tracing.  

I think, not having to scale assets, will benefit developers of all shapes and sizes. It will be great for Indie developers working with a limited budget, but AAA games should also benefit greatly on the creative side. Just having a massive leap in assets variation alone is going to be a major game changer and should make for much more interesting and immersive world design. 

To me the SSD enabled tech does sound like it will the biggest break-through next gen when we're talking about consoles. Me thinks we'll see a much bigger leap than going from ps3 to ps4, because of it. But I also think it will be a much bigger limiting factor in cross-gen titles that still have to run on a HDD compared to just having a weaker gpu. Scaling things on the gpu side is one thing, but scaling the entire world design is going to be a different matter entirely.    

I guess we can have some sort of middle ground ray tracing path with on development they doing the mapping with it and using for global ilumination or some pre-baked.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Around the Network
Conina said:
goopy20 said:

However, you have to keep in mind that duplicate assets will be a thing of the past, there will be much better compression in hardware, and you will be able to install parts of a game. It'll depend on how ambitious the game is, but overall they might actually be smaller than we're seeing now. 

So where is the rest of the game when you only have installed a part of the game, when you reach the next level or load a savegame in a totally different part of the game?

Will the suddenly needed part then be installed from the optical disk with 0.02 - 0.05 GB/s (20 - 50 MB/s and very bad seeking speeds on the disc) or from the internet servers with 0.001 - 0.1 GB/s (1 - 100 MB/s)?

And how much is "much better compression"? 2x or 3x of current compression techniques? More? Less?

I'm also getting mixed signals about the advantages of the 5.5 GB/s PS5 SSDs compared to the 2.4 GB/s XBO SSDs or even slower NVME or SATA SSDs... will the needed data transfers per area of the games be huge (so the faster SSD is in advantage by speed but in disadvantage by capacity) or won't the needed data transfers grow compared to current gen systems due to better compression (so slower SSDs are still "good enough" to load the assets fast)?

You can't have it both ways.

I think they are more talking about things like only installing the multi player part of a game to save up space.

We will see how both consoles compare as they're actually quite a bit different in design philosophy, with both having its pros and cons. Series X has the better specs from a traditional standpoint, while ps5 excels in something that hasn't been much of a focus for developers in the past. It would've been way easier for Sony to just slap in a 1TB 2.4GB/s SSD, but they believe going to 5.5GB/s will make a big difference, and its why they're calling it the key to the next generation.

My guess is that we're not going to see much of a difference in multiplatform games, but exclusives should be interesting, though.  



Pemalite said:
goopy20 said:

Didn't Unreal 4 already have dynamic global illumination? I remember it was just too expensive for current gen consoles, so they ended up replacing it with a number of graphical effects that were less demanding. We will see, but I got a feeling that path tracing, like we're seeing in Minecraft, is a bridge too far for next gen consoles, at least when we're talking graphically demanding games. I hope I'm wrong, though, and maybe we will see some smaller scale games using it, or games running in 1080p. I mean Series X should be better at handling Ray Tracing than the ps5, but they also had to go with 1080p just to run Minecraft. My guess is that for path tracing we're going to need at least a RTX3*** gpu. However, Dynamic Global Illumination like Lumen looks like a fantastic alternative for next gen consoles, as its far less resource heavy than full blown path tracing.  

It sure did.
However, not all implementations of Global Illumination is the same.

The number of light bounces will severely impact your performance.

goopy20 said:

To me the SSD enabled tech does sound like it will the biggest break-through next gen when we're talking about consoles. Me thinks we'll see a much bigger leap than going from ps3 to ps4, because of it. But I also think it will be a much bigger limiting factor in cross-gen titles that still have to run on a HDD compared to just having a weaker gpu. Scaling things on the gpu side is one thing, but scaling the entire world design is going to be a different matter entirely.     

Well. It's not really a break through per-sey. The technology has existed for over a decade, just the mass-produced lowest-common denominators (Consoles) couldn't afford to have the technology until it became more affordable thanks to scales of economy afforded by PC and Mobile devices.

Storage transfer rates stagnated on consoles for years... If we had kept improving storage speed at the same rate as Ram since the Nintendo 64... The Playstation 5 would have an SSD with 228GB/s... Now think of what that could potentially do for game world possibilities.

True, SSD has been around for a long, long time on pc. Still, the custom tech Sony's putting in their console to leverage the SSD is pretty awesome. Maybe we're not going to need it for pc, but at the very least it will be exciting to see modern SSD's do more on pc than just loading games faster.  



goopy20 said:
Conina said:

So where is the rest of the game when you only have installed a part of the game, when you reach the next level or load a savegame in a totally different part of the game?

Will the suddenly needed part then be installed from the optical disk with 0.02 - 0.05 GB/s (20 - 50 MB/s and very bad seeking speeds on the disc) or from the internet servers with 0.001 - 0.1 GB/s (1 - 100 MB/s)?

And how much is "much better compression"? 2x or 3x of current compression techniques? More? Less?

I'm also getting mixed signals about the advantages of the 5.5 GB/s PS5 SSDs compared to the 2.4 GB/s XBO SSDs or even slower NVME or SATA SSDs... will the needed data transfers per area of the games be huge (so the faster SSD is in advantage by speed but in disadvantage by capacity) or won't the needed data transfers grow compared to current gen systems due to better compression (so slower SSDs are still "good enough" to load the assets fast)?

You can't have it both ways.

I think they are more talking about things like only installing the multi player part of a game to save up space.

We will see how both consoles compare as they're actually quite a bit different in design philosophy, with both having its pros and cons. Series X has the better specs from a traditional standpoint, while ps5 excels in something that hasn't been much of a focus for developers in the past. It would've been way easier for Sony to just slap in a 1TB 2.4GB/s SSD, but they believe going to 5.5GB/s will make a big difference, and its why they're calling it the key to the next generation.

My guess is that we're not going to see much of a difference in multiplatform games, but exclusives should be interesting, though.  

My guess is that is just gona be an evolution of what games they have been focusing on current gen. Sony has had a big focus on single player, open world, story driven, graphically intensive over over fast pace gameplay, intensive worlds and other stuff. They build their next console around what they already here building so a super fast and efficient ssd was necessary for them. Im sure its the same for xbox and the games they where already focusing on. Im sure they also tried to please third partys, but after they both did they pushed their own design choices more. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:
goopy20 said:

I think they are more talking about things like only installing the multi player part of a game to save up space.

We will see how both consoles compare as they're actually quite a bit different in design philosophy, with both having its pros and cons. Series X has the better specs from a traditional standpoint, while ps5 excels in something that hasn't been much of a focus for developers in the past. It would've been way easier for Sony to just slap in a 1TB 2.4GB/s SSD, but they believe going to 5.5GB/s will make a big difference, and its why they're calling it the key to the next generation.

My guess is that we're not going to see much of a difference in multiplatform games, but exclusives should be interesting, though.  

My guess is that is just gona be an evolution of what games they have been focusing on current gen. Sony has had a big focus on single player, open world, story driven, graphically intensive over over fast pace gameplay, intensive worlds and other stuff. They build their next console around what they already here building so a super fast and efficient ssd was necessary for them. Im sure its the same for xbox and the games they where already focusing on. Im sure they also tried to please third partys, but after they both did they pushed their own design choices more. 

I think so too. A lot of Sony's ip's seem a perfect fit for their SSD tech. MS  seems to be going with a more pc-like approach on Series X, where scalability and higher resolution/fps is more important than pushing the visuals of a single platform. I wouldn't say MS's strategy is terrible, but it is the reason why we're missing out on that next-gen thrill.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 25 May 2020