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Forums - Politics Discussion - Are you OK with games becoming more Politically Correct?

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Is PC ruining gaming?

Yes 19 31.67%
 
No, you're just being silly! Ah 41 68.33%
 
Total:60
Snoorlax said:

sundin13 said:

I don't think this is PC culture running rampant and destroying muh gaems, it is just people asking for better written stories which is an entirely natural criticism and expectation...

No, they aren't asking for a better written story they just don't like Homosexuals to be portrayed in a slightly negative tone even if it was meant as a joke not meant to hurt anybody. Would you tell a stand up comedian that he can't make race related jokes? Or only if it's about White people?

While criticism is valid, expecting the game to change it's content because you feel like it, is PC culture running rampant.

sundin13 said:

MK11 was the fifth best selling game of 2019. Fire Emblem Three Houses is the best selling game in the franchise. RE5 was the best selling game in the series when it released.  I'd say that their appeals to the free market are doing just fine.

But don't worry comrade. If you ever want to seize the means of production to distribute games to the proletariat, hit me up.

Oh really? Yeah let's take a look at Mk11's metacritic user score

3.3 doesn't sound very positive now does it? It's filled with microtransactions and pc'd MK something which fans have never asked for in their MK game. Here you can read the comments where fans complain about the politics in Mk11

Resident Evil 5 came out during a time were the WOKE warriors had not taken over the western gaming industry yet, even so RE 5 is considered among the weaker RE games you'd know this if you're familiar with the series. Luckily, Capcom is Japanese and managed to avoid some of the wokeness with some of their latest games.

Often, it being meant as a joke is the problem. For example, blackface is meant as a joke (referring to the classic vaudeville blackface, not simply wearing dark make up). However, it uses harmful stereotypes and caricatures which has a negative impact. When you portray something serious as a joke, or a character as a stereotype or caricature, that can be harmful and that is also typically poor writing.

As for MK11, review bombing happens all the time. Remember that comment about a very loud minority? Yeah... User scores are not and likely never will be indicative of anything, especially with how triggered certain sections of the gaming community get.

DonFerrari said:
sundin13 said:

Do you actually believe that though? While "political correctness" may be a buzzword that has lost most of its meaning, at the end of the day, "political correctness" is why nobody seriously does blackface any more and why the n-word is generally avoided. I think we can all acknowledge that racism in media was damaging throughout the 20th century. Political correctness is not a bad thing.

At its heart, political correctness is not doing or saying things that hurt people.

This is an entertainment medium. Good stories shouldn't be predicated upon hurting or attacking segments of the audience for how they were born. If you cannot extract that from the story, there are probably bigger issues with the story. What we are gaining from much of this is an audience who doesn't feel attacked by the art that was created to entertain them. While you may not be offended or you may not agree, I think we can acknowledge objectively that more people enjoying a game is something gained.

Now, that isn't to say that political correctness can't be abused. Of course it can. But to treat the entire idea, as invalid because some people are stupid is falling back on the buzzword that doesn't mean anything and just swinging fists at the evil SJW bogeyman.

It is just impossible to say or do things without hurting people. I have seem some here do personal attacks, intently trying to harm others, but none of the PC defenders stood up against it. So it is always something of trying to make collective responsibility on the back of others to nullify personal responsibility.

If you read the other posts I done you`ll see that I have no issues with stories that focus on left wing ideals or the like. But when you have a dominated field pushing for that you really aren`t benefiting the market. And many people take offense on changing the IPs to what they don`t want, but these people have to accept it because "they want to have fun while hurting others"?

Are you really trying to compare a video game to an argument on a forum? That's a bit....silly. To say the least.

But to your point, I understand what you are saying about how you can't account for all harm done. I get that. I disagree that "it is impossible to do things without hurting people" but I get the overall point. But that is just when a modicum of thinking comes into the equation. Yes, these things are not objective, however they can still be handled in a reasonable way. That is the standard that I usually try to uphold. The standard of reasonable-ness is good enough for the courtroom, so I think it is good enough here.

When pleading self-defense, you don't just have to prove that an individual feared for their safety, you have to prove that a reasonable individual would have feared for their safety in that situation. If someone is vehemently racist, to the extent that they are terrified by black people and shoots a black person out of fear despite them doing nothing, you could say that in their mind they were acting in self defense, however, it wouldn't meet the standard of reasonableness.

The same concept applies here. Someone might have a fear of butterflies, but a reasonable person wouldn't find any harm in including butterflies in a work of art.

That is largely why the concept of political correctness does not apply to individual harm or harm directed towards an individual making poor decisions (say, someone who commits murder). It is based around a more widely understood concept of how harm is known to be done based on non-actionable factors.

Does that make sense?

sales2099 said:
sundin13 said:

In regards to history based video games, it really depends on the intent of the work. Just because something takes place during a certain time in the past, doesn't mean that the intent is to be documentarian. We regularly see changes in historical video games regarding the technology available in that era, however I virtually never see complaint about this, but if you throw a woman into a battle that didn't involve women, all of the sudden everybody loses their minds. I think that provides us with an opportunity to sit back and reflect on our personal biases. Fact is, in almost any adaptation, whether it is adapting a book into a movie, or adapting a historical event into a piece of art, you will see a number of changes for any number of different reasons. Distance from the source material, whether fiction or non-fiction, is not a measure of quality. That is something that must be determined independently.

You also make a comment about how we should leave the change to the new IPs, and keep the old ones how they were, but the phrase "adapt or die" comes to mind. Franchises regularly reinvent themselves, and if they hold true and stay consistent, many will struggle to continue to provide reasons for people to purchase them. We, as gamers, demand change, though we reserve the right to criticize if that change is in a direction that we do not like. Sometimes those changes will be for the worse. Express what you will about the changes, but to turn your back on the very notion of change is to simply be blind to the reality of what people want, and the reality of the industry.

Because it isn't that people don't like when their favorite games change. Look at Breath of the Wild. That was probably the biggest departure in the series since OoT, and it is considered one of the best games of the generation. It is that they are looking at a specific change that they didn't like and trying to use it as a rule even though that doesn't really fit with reality. "PC" changes are no different. Often, they simply take the form of giving a character more depth. Maybe don't just write the female lead as a personality-less titty monster. Give her a character and a motivation, and you've turned a avatar to create porn of into someone that people actually care about.

I would also like to comment quickly on your final comment: "I don't believe in policed speech, that just sounds like left-wing fascism". Again, I will ask you to sit back and examine your biases. The policing of speech is not left-wing. While the right-wing religious outrage and "policing of speech" of the 20th century has largely faded, there are numerous examples of right-wing censorship throughout history, and we still often see demands regarding what can and cannot be said coming from those on the modern right.

The history comment is interesting, I do agree that different weapons are tolerated but women amputees on the frontlines are complained about. In that case it comes down to practicality. If weapons were true to the era (especially WW1) it just wouldn’t be as fun from a gameplay perspective. Guns didn’t fire fast and that just isn’t fun. But the women thing for many would take you out of the immersion in the period.

Im all for women in gaming, Hellblade is my favourite new IP of the gen, and that’s about a female warrior in historical 8th century Ireland. But they made it work with amazing storytelling, not shoehorning her in because “reasons”.

I’d say “adapt or die” applies more to gameplay and design then the story of games. Breath of the wild is a great example of this. But I don’t think storytelling in video games needs to “adapt or die”, unless it’s with new IPs because it’s a fresh slate and all. 

We are both pushing agendas here. But at least I like to maintain a stance to leave history as intact as reasonably possible and leave time tested IPs politically neutral.

While we both agree the past has a lot of right wing censorship. But you honestly can’t tell me left wing people don’t police speech. “Micro aggression” and “trigger warning” are not right wing terms and the subsequent outrage (Twitter mobs) and shaming when instances do happen. The pendulum is merely swinging in the other direction now. 

I don't think women should take you out of the immersion more than technology. I believe the reason it sometimes does, is because of a fascination with identity politics. Whether they like it or not, many individuals who disagree with leftist political stances, are completely consumed by them. While an average person may not make much of the inclusion of a woman in a WW1 game, someone who is entrenched (heh) in this political back and forth would likely notice that detail and be upset by it.

There are several cognitive biases which center around the idea that once you have something in your head, you begin to notice it. If you are predisposed with identity politics, your brain will grab onto things which can fit into that sphere and interpret them through that lens.

You may have an issue with women in your historical games, because you have an issue with PC culture, and not the other way around. This was the common theme with most of the points I was making (including the next one).

As for "adapt or die", I think that was largely my point. I believe it applies to the game as a whole, and any number of factors can contribute to adaptation (sometimes a game may maintain gameplay but revolutionize the story and sometimes the opposite). However, if "change" is truly the issue, it shouldn't matter which aspect is changing (and I would argue that gameplay changes are far more important to most games than story changes). So why do we take such issue with some of these story changes? Again, I believe that our cognitive biases influence us to have an issue with these changes because we have an issue with PC culture, and not the other way around.

As for modern censorship, I wouldn't say that the left doesn't police speech, but I also wouldn't say that the modern right doesn't police speech. I do believe concepts such as microaggressions and trigger warnings are laughably blown out of proportion by the right, but there are certainly instances of the left attacking certain speech. But if you look up, you will find the same from the right. MK11 did something with the story that can be interpreted as political? Angry mob now review bombs the game, yelling "You can't say/do that!".

By the way, I appreciate this post. Too often I talk to people who are either brain dead or completely unwilling to engage so I appreciate the effort and the honesty in this discussion, even though we disagree.



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sundin13 said:

(...)

By the way, I appreciate this post. Too often I talk to people who are either brain dead or completely unwilling to engage so I appreciate the effort and the honesty in this discussion, even though we disagree.

You are a sly one. That was a microaggression against me.



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Bandorr said:
Depends. I'll have to see an actual good example first.

You seem more offended that Mortal kombat was making fun of Trump. That was political humor not political correctness.

Is eight levels of yikes. If you are offended at a video game doing a "what if" scenario about ending slavery - you are the problem. You basically don't want to change and you're tired of getting called out on your shit for being shit

I specifically mentioned Mk11 because it's a the game most impacted by PC culture. I'm not "offended" as in hurt my feelings by its political statements because

1. it's a video game

2. I just don't agree with NRS politics

3. If I needed lecture on modern social politics I would look it up on the internet not in a videogame I paid full price for.

Funny how you mention it's just "political humor", which im okay with Donald Trump often sounds like a jackass I can say so myself, but it certaintly wouldn't be viewed as just "humor" but rather "sexist!" had the game made fun of Hillary or women in general like that. Gee, maybe because they know people would be offended and slam the game online but also most likely it goes against the developers agenda.

And please stop, acting as if all of this is just a joke or has no meaning behind it. MK11 clearly tries to make political statements here whether you are too blinded by your own agendas to admit it or not.

All I got from your post is that nobody can be offended or dislike political statements unless they go against your believes. Grow up.

Vinther1991 said:

There is a push for more diverse protagonists, but it seems to be the wish of the video game developers themselves. And it is a breath of fresh air, really.

I also don't get the idea that video games are supposed to be fun.

They can also be thought provoking and emotional. And touch on a range of different feelings.
If anything, I think too few video games have a political angle.

There is more talk about PC culture than there is actual PC culture.

I myself am a minority so I have no problems at all with games pushing for more diverse protagonists. I do have a problem with developers pushing this in already existing franchises that were social politics don't have a place.

So you play video games to be reminded that you're a racist for not choosing a Black or Latino character? Or that you're morally wrong for liking a fictional female in a skimpy outfit unless she consends that you can look at her? Cause that is the kind of message that I'm getting from some entertainment these days.

I guess you are just too naive to see the PC culture influence in Western entertainment then.

Nautilus said:

The japanese seem to be pretty able to separate fiction from reality..

Not just Japan, most people are able to do this, it's called common sense. But western social politics likes to mess around with what's allowed in media and what isn't only to indoctrinate their agendas into the younger generations of today.

RolStoppable said:
The developers who do that usually happen to be the same ones who don't know how to make a good game, so they are looking for other ways to make their game meaningful.

Agreed.

Zoombael said:
I'm not ok with it. Not political correctness in and of itself. But the way they forcefully cram it in everywhere, like just to give the list a checkmark. It doesn't feel more diverse. It feels more mainstreamlined and dull than ever, blurring unique character and counter acting artistic freedom.

I'm sad not many other people see this as you do.

RolStoppable said:
Snoorlax said:

Exactly, and they're only doing this to established videogame franchises because those are actually popular and bring in lots of money. They wouldn't give two shits about Battlefield, Mk, RE if these games weren't million sellers.

and starting an entirely new IP with PC fundamentals is too much work and would probably flop anyways, so it's much easier to change what's already there like Star Wars.

You are aiming for the wrong.

Furthermore, it's not farfetched that dumb things are in games not because developers were "pressured" into doing it by someone else

The fact is that that games like MK, Battlefield aren't known for their political statements other than giving the finger to the system back when they first launched.

They've never been about politics ever since until recent times and why is there controversy surrounding them? Because it alienates and divides the fanbase who just likes to play the game together but now we need to put in social commentary just to prove that developers are woke and adds nothing, in some cases removes or censors some things, to the game other than mess with it's identity and please the highly politically aware folks.

Sure times change and games evolve but politics are not what I play certain video games for. If a developer wants to shove in his or her believes into a videogame then fine but they should not be shocked to receive negative feedback from it's fanbase and afterwards call them all sorts of isms for it.

Jumpin said:
Xenoblade Chronicles X was not removed due to political correctness concerns, it was because pedophilia is generally frowned upon and criminalized in Western society, but not so much in countries like Japan. They create this stuff to market to pedophiles niches, but in many Western markets it’s been decided that pedophilia shouldn’t be in any way normalized as they had done in Japan.

In the end, it amounts to a localization decision, like changing the language and font. No one misses that stuff as the detail is irrelevant to the experience. It doesn’t add to the artistic merit of the work in any way shape or form... unless you’re a pedophile. And realistically, it’s because of pedophiles wanting this sort of stuff that makes it necessary for removal. If there was no demand for underage girls in skimpy outfits, then removal of this stuff wouldn’t be relevant.

And the whole “I want to see underage girls in skimpy outfits not because I’m a pedophile but because I want the art as originally intended) is a bullshit argument. I am willing to bet these same people making this argument would not complain nearly as much about any other changes that occurred were the game to be ported to Switch. If you want the pristine Japanese version of the game, don’t by the European localization because that one is localized for European markets, not Japanese markets.

I'm sure you're a nice guy but this is the worst post I've read in a long time.

Pedophilia is not accepted in Japan nor by Japanese people. Do you even know what a pedophile is? It's an adult, usually a guy, sexually attracted to minors.

Dressing a minor in revealing clothes is questionable but where in the game does it flat out promote pedophilia? How come the game isnt banned or the developers aren't arrested if it's pedophilia and it's illegal in Japan?

And I find it very offensive of you to assume that anybody who is against this kind of censorship because it's a videogame and believes in the developers freedom of creative expressions or are just generally against censorship must automatically be presumed pedophiles because other than the game having more unnecessary censorship other than just Lin being a minor, that means anybody who is against censoring of hyper violence in games must be a murderer or psychopath right? No you don't get to hear that because that's the double Standard we have over here in the west.

 




 



Bandorr said:
Depends. I'll have to see an actual good example first.

You seem more offended that Mortal kombat was making fun of Trump. That was political humor not political correctness.

Is eight levels of yikes. If you are offended at a video game doing a "what if" scenario about ending slavery - you are the problem. You basically don't want to change and you're tired of getting called out on your shit for being shit

I specifically mentioned Mk11 because it's a the game most impacted by PC culture. I'm not "offended" as in hurt my feelings by its political statements because

1. it's a video game

2. I just don't agree with NRS politics

3. If I needed lecture on modern social politics I would look it up on the internet not in a videogame I paid full price for.

Funny how you mention it's just "political humor", which im okay with Donald Trump often sounds like a jackass I can say so myself, but it certaintly wouldn't be viewed as just "humor" but rather "sexist!" had the game made fun of Hillary or women in general like that. Gee, maybe because they know people would be offended and slam the game online but also most likely it goes against the developers agenda.

And please stop, acting as if all of this is just a joke or has no meaning behind it. MK11 clearly tries to make political statements here whether you are too blinded by your own agendas to admit it or not.

All I got from your post is that nobody can be offended or dislike political statements unless they go against your believes. Grow up.

Vinther1991 said:

There is a push for more diverse protagonists, but it seems to be the wish of the video game developers themselves. And it is a breath of fresh air, really.

I also don't get the idea that video games are supposed to be fun.

They can also be thought provoking and emotional. And touch on a range of different feelings.
If anything, I think too few video games have a political angle.

There is more talk about PC culture than there is actual PC culture.

I myself am a minority so I have no problems at all with games pushing for more diverse protagonists. I do have a problem with developers pushing this in already existing franchises that were social politics don't have a place.

So you play video games to be reminded that you're a racist for not choosing a Black or Latino character? Or that you're morally wrong for liking a fictional female in a skimpy outfit unless she consends that you can look at her? Cause that is the kind of message that I'm getting from some entertainment these days.

I guess you are just too naive to see the PC culture influence in Western entertainment then.

Nautilus said:

The japanese seem to be pretty able to separate fiction from reality..

Not just Japan, most people are able to do this, it's called common sense. But western social politics likes to mess around with what's allowed in media and what isn't only to indoctrinate their agendas into the younger generations of today.

RolStoppable said:
The developers who do that usually happen to be the same ones who don't know how to make a good game, so they are looking for other ways to make their game meaningful.

Agreed.

Zoombael said:
I'm not ok with it. Not political correctness in and of itself. But the way they forcefully cram it in everywhere, like just to give the list a checkmark. It doesn't feel more diverse. It feels more mainstreamlined and dull than ever, blurring unique character and counter acting artistic freedom.

I'm sad not many other people see this as you do.

RolStoppable said:
Snoorlax said:

Exactly, and they're only doing this to established videogame franchises because those are actually popular and bring in lots of money. They wouldn't give two shits about Battlefield, Mk, RE if these games weren't million sellers.

and starting an entirely new IP with PC fundamentals is too much work and would probably flop anyways, so it's much easier to change what's already there like Star Wars.

You are aiming for the wrong.

Furthermore, it's not farfetched that dumb things are in games not because developers were "pressured" into doing it by someone else

The fact is that that games like MK, Battlefield aren't known for their political statements other than giving the finger to the system back when they first launched.

They've never been about politics ever since until recent times and why is there controversy surrounding them? Because it alienates and divides the fanbase who just likes to play the game together but now we need to put in social commentary just to prove that developers are woke and adds nothing, in some cases removes or censors some things, to the game other than mess with it's identity and please the highly politically aware folks.

Sure times change and games evolve but politics are not what I play certain video games for. If a developer wants to shove in his or her believes into a videogame then fine but they should not be shocked to receive negative feedback from it's fanbase and afterwards call them all sorts of isms for it.

Jumpin said:
Xenoblade Chronicles X was not removed due to political correctness concerns, it was because pedophilia is generally frowned upon and criminalized in Western society, but not so much in countries like Japan. They create this stuff to market to pedophiles niches, but in many Western markets it’s been decided that pedophilia shouldn’t be in any way normalized as they had done in Japan.

In the end, it amounts to a localization decision, like changing the language and font. No one misses that stuff as the detail is irrelevant to the experience. It doesn’t add to the artistic merit of the work in any way shape or form... unless you’re a pedophile. And realistically, it’s because of pedophiles wanting this sort of stuff that makes it necessary for removal. If there was no demand for underage girls in skimpy outfits, then removal of this stuff wouldn’t be relevant.

And the whole “I want to see underage girls in skimpy outfits not because I’m a pedophile but because I want the art as originally intended) is a bullshit argument. I am willing to bet these same people making this argument would not complain nearly as much about any other changes that occurred were the game to be ported to Switch. If you want the pristine Japanese version of the game, don’t by the European localization because that one is localized for European markets, not Japanese markets.

I'm sure you're a nice guy but this is the worst post I've read in a long time.

Pedophilia is not accepted in Japan nor by Japanese people. Do you even know what a pedophile is? It's an adult, usually a guy, sexually attracted to minors.

Dressing a minor in revealing clothes is questionable but where in the game does it flat out promote pedophilia? How come the game isnt banned or the developers aren't arrested if it's pedophilia and it's illegal in Japan?

And I find it very offensive of you to assume that anybody who is against this kind of censorship because it's a videogame and believes in the developers freedom of creative expressions or are just generally against censorship must automatically be presumed pedophiles because other than the game having more unnecessary censorship other than just Lin being a minor, that means anybody who is against censoring of hyper violence in games must be a murderer or psychopath right? No you don't get to hear that because that's the double Standard we have over here in the west.

 




 



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RolStoppable said:
Mnementh said:

1. XCX does not have pedophilia.

2. That Japan supports pedophilia is a common racist trope, but also untrue. Japan has made underage sex illegal, as most of the world. Don't fall for racist propaganda.

1. The version released in Europe and America doesn't have it. But the Japanese version had skimpy outfits for Lin who does look underage.

2. You are reframing what he said to make it sound worse than it really is. Japan clearly does not condemn depictions of virtual underage girls in skimpy outfits to the same degree as other parts of the world, hence why developers can keep doing what they are doing for the Japanese market. Lack of condemnation is not the same as active support, rather it's indifference to a subject that should be taken more seriously.

1. The japanese version still wouldn't have been illegal or anything in europe. He worded his post so, that it indicated XCX had contained pedophilia, which it didn't. The changes were basically -as always - due to expectations what would resonate better with the consumer-base and sell better.

2. He said: "it was because pedophilia is generally frowned upon and criminalized in Western society, but not so much in countries like Japan". Which is basically untrue. Japan has laws in place just like the rest of the world.

And to say it clearly: What Jumpin said is offensive as it depicts japanese people and japanese culture in a way that is highly unfair. I don't think he is racist, but these line of thinking about japan is used from racists to make people thinking badly about japanese and in extension asian culture. So, the politically correct way would be to avoid blankly throwing accusation towards japanese culture.



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Otter said:
sales2099 said:

 But what if the game in question is from your favourite franchise since you were a kid? It’s not so easy to just drop the franchise you’ve loved for years. It’s not so black and white 

These things tend to not be a deal breaker. But it can still take away from the games story appeal. 

Whats an example for you? (The storyline being hurt)

Just imagine all of the incest games that had to take out their incest theme. Fucking your "landlord" just isn't the same as your mother. Unofficial incest patches to games is a real thing, because people care.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Maybe we should just stopping making games or do anything because people get butt hurt all the time. Let's just make Candy Crush clones till everyone kills themselves.



Runa216 said:


Like, dude, if you think it's a bad thing that the world has collectively agreed that bigotry and sexism and various other offensive nonsense is bad, then you're part of the problem. If you can't accept that things change, then you're dragging us all down, holding us all back, and making the world a worse place.


I agreed with your post overall, but in particular the part quoted above.  Well said.  I never understood why people flip out over having a female being properly clothed in a videogame.  I was very pleased with how Lara Croft was handled in Tomb Raider Reboot.  I also like what they did with Jill in RE3 Remake.  



Ok let me give a direct answer.

Are you OK with games becoming more Politically Correct?

Yes, I am OK, with games being more and more Politically Correct.

I just don't give a crap.

But I love to see Anti/Pro PC triggered people fighting and discussing it with big thesis as it is rocket science.

In true they both ( Anti/Pro PC ) couldn't live without each other.
They love each other.

Last edited by ruior - on 01 April 2020