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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Presidential Election Thread

Florida attorney/Man conspires to commit wide voter fraud in Georgia runoffs. Breaks out the tired, "I was just joking!" defense when caught.

These people really need to come up with some new material...



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Bofferbrauer2 said:
vivster said:

False equivalence yet again. It's really not beneficial for any democracy to pretend that "both sides are the same", when they are clearly not. At least not in the US. It's an easy cop-out to not have to think about politics too hard.

There is one side who fights for the majority of Americans and there is the other side who fights only for themselves. Both have big donors and want to stay in power, but only one of them is actually practicing democracy. And that seems to be a pretty big difference. Big enough to not equate them.

And even if he was true, then why support the status quo? Why not vote third party if you're unhappy with the both big parties?

Because it's useless unless the US establish democracy. And to do that you have to vote democrats first. Voting 3rd party is not only throwing your vote away, it's working actively against what you try to achieve. Just like moronic Bernie supporters not voting for Hillary and effectively giving their vote to Trump, setting them back even further.

Voting against democrats in the US is voting against yourself unless you are a millionaire or a sociopath.

Rab said:
vivster said:

False equivalence yet again. It's really not beneficial for any democracy to pretend that "both sides are the same", when they are clearly not. At least not in the US. It's an easy cop-out to not have to think about politics too hard.

There is one side who fights for the majority of Americans and there is the other side who fights only for themselves. Both have big donors and want to stay in power, but only one of them is actually practicing democracy. And that seems to be a pretty big difference. Big enough to not equate them.

You must have missed the Dems presidential primaries when the Democratic establishment had concerns about nominating Sanders when it appeared he would win by having the enthusiasm with workers and the young for his very progressive policies and honesty, the Establishment then rallied to block Sanders in favour of Biden who up until then had low voter turnout and enthusiasm because his policies were status quo in nature  

There is a reason Trump became president, and it wasn't because of the Est Dems empathy and policy choices that favoured the working class, they wanted to stay in power not for the people (if so why not champion policies that favour the working class like Sanders did), but for the people in power and privilege (their own class) 

2024 could see the Reps get back in if the Dems don't change to better reflect the young and working class aspirations, if they just benefit the big donors and themselves as the ruling class they will be in trouble come 2024, unfortunately the makeup of the cabinet is setting this up for a bad 2024, mixed demographically but ideologically consistent with the status quo, the progressives with the enthusiastic base are not truly represented in Bidens cabinet picks

The Reps and Dems are different sides of the same bent coin, Sanders/AOC wanted to mint a new coin 

Dems lost against Trump because of politics, not because of their policy. Idiotic Bernie voters are actually one of the main reasons why Trump won. And I'm not saying people who support Bernie are idiots, I'm saying people who support Bernie and don't vote for Hillary or Biden are idiots.

The US is at a point where it literally does not matter how far left or right the policy of the established Democrats are. As long as they are left of whatever the Republicans do it's a Boolean choice. It doesn't matter if the chance to get more socialist policies with established democrats is only 0.1%. It's still more than 0%, which is what you get when you don't vote for Democrats.

While the difference of 0.1 doesn't seem big between Republicans and Democrats it is actually magnitudes apart. Which is why it is not helpful to say that they are similar. It'll only confuse the biggest morons on this planet, undecided voters.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Rab said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

And even if he was true, then why support the status quo? Why not vote third party if you're unhappy with the both big parties?

In other countries like Australia that can work as it is closer to proportional representation, as seen how the Greens in many other countries are a force even if not getting elected outright, the US Electoral College is a "winner takes all" system, small parties will not get proportional representation therefore its a dead vote, so the "lesser of two evils" rational is the practical choice for voters  

vivster said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

And even if he was true, then why support the status quo? Why not vote third party if you're unhappy with the both big parties?

Because it's useless unless the US establish democracy. And to do that you have to vote democrats first. Voting 3rd party is not only throwing your vote away, it's working actively against what you try to achieve. Just like moronic Bernie supporters not voting for Hillary and effectively giving their vote to Trump, setting them back even further.

Voting against democrats in the US is voting against yourself unless you are a millionaire or a sociopath.

It is throwing your vote because everybody thinks it's throwing away your vote. If everybody voted by their heart and not just against the "evils" of the other side, then both parties wouldn't be anywhere close to be so dominant. In fact, I doubt they would be anywhere near dominating at all.

You can see that in local elections, where third parties have much more power and are holding several offices. But once you go a step further, this stupid way of thinking kicks in, ensuring that the two big parties stay unchallenged in state or federal elections.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
Rab said:

In other countries like Australia that can work as it is closer to proportional representation, as seen how the Greens in many other countries are a force even if not getting elected outright, the US Electoral College is a "winner takes all" system, small parties will not get proportional representation therefore its a dead vote, so the "lesser of two evils" rational is the practical choice for voters  

vivster said:

Because it's useless unless the US establish democracy. And to do that you have to vote democrats first. Voting 3rd party is not only throwing your vote away, it's working actively against what you try to achieve. Just like moronic Bernie supporters not voting for Hillary and effectively giving their vote to Trump, setting them back even further.

Voting against democrats in the US is voting against yourself unless you are a millionaire or a sociopath.

It is throwing your vote because everybody thinks it's throwing away your vote. If everybody voted by their heart and not just against the "evils" of the other side, then both parties wouldn't be anywhere close to be so dominant. In fact, I doubt they would be anywhere near dominating at all.

You can see that in local elections, where third parties have much more power and are holding several offices. But once you go a step further, this stupid way of thinking kicks in, ensuring that the two big parties stay unchallenged in state or federal elections.

You're overestimating people's willingness to vote for 3rd party. Think about who votes for them. People already involved with politics who know about policy and care about it. That's a tiny percentage of voters. Even without the electoral college 3rd parties wouldn't even come close to the established parties.

US politics is so entrenched right now that it takes multiple paradigm shifts for 3rd parties to get any kind of meaningful positions in the country, let alone a presidency. So how it is right now even if you could convince people who would consider voting for a 3rd candidate it would not be enough to rattle either party. 3rd party voters are more likely to come from the left side since they are actually interested in politics. That would lead to the Republicans winning every single election and you can be sure they will do everything in their power to suppress 3rd party powers.

So yes, until the US gains a democracy voting 3rd party is indeed not only throwing away your vote, but actively working against the rise of 3rd parties. First you will have to lay the groundwork.

And let's pretend it is possible right now to prop up a 3rd party to usurp whatever one of the established parties, you would just end up with a 2 party system again, because you haven't actually changed the underlying conditions yet.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

And even if he was true, then why support the status quo? Why not vote third party if you're unhappy with the both big parties?

Because it's useless unless the US establish democracy. And to do that you have to vote democrats first. Voting 3rd party is not only throwing your vote away, it's working actively against what you try to achieve. Just like moronic Bernie supporters not voting for Hillary and effectively giving their vote to Trump, setting them back even further.

Voting against democrats in the US is voting against yourself unless you are a millionaire or a sociopath.

Rab said:

You must have missed the Dems presidential primaries when the Democratic establishment had concerns about nominating Sanders when it appeared he would win by having the enthusiasm with workers and the young for his very progressive policies and honesty, the Establishment then rallied to block Sanders in favour of Biden who up until then had low voter turnout and enthusiasm because his policies were status quo in nature  

There is a reason Trump became president, and it wasn't because of the Est Dems empathy and policy choices that favoured the working class, they wanted to stay in power not for the people (if so why not champion policies that favour the working class like Sanders did), but for the people in power and privilege (their own class) 

2024 could see the Reps get back in if the Dems don't change to better reflect the young and working class aspirations, if they just benefit the big donors and themselves as the ruling class they will be in trouble come 2024, unfortunately the makeup of the cabinet is setting this up for a bad 2024, mixed demographically but ideologically consistent with the status quo, the progressives with the enthusiastic base are not truly represented in Bidens cabinet picks

The Reps and Dems are different sides of the same bent coin, Sanders/AOC wanted to mint a new coin 

Dems lost against Trump because of politics, not because of their policy. Idiotic Bernie voters are actually one of the main reasons why Trump won. And I'm not saying people who support Bernie are idiots, I'm saying people who support Bernie and don't vote for Hillary or Biden are idiots.

The US is at a point where it literally does not matter how far left or right the policy of the established Democrats are. As long as they are left of whatever the Republicans do it's a Boolean choice. It doesn't matter if the chance to get more socialist policies with established democrats is only 0.1%. It's still more than 0%, which is what you get when you don't vote for Democrats.

While the difference of 0.1 doesn't seem big between Republicans and Democrats it is actually magnitudes apart. Which is why it is not helpful to say that they are similar. It'll only confuse the biggest morons on this planet, undecided voters.

The reason Trump won wasn't because of Bernie's policies which have very high approval ratings with the working class (Trump Supporters) and the young (Universal Healthcare, College Free tuition, The Green New Deal), nore was it Bernie's supporters abstaining to vote for Hillary (Hillary supporters abstained in greater numbers from voting for Obama in 2008) Hillary was generally a despised figure, her approval was extremely low in many polls 

What killed it for Hillary was her lack of any policy that addresses the real systemic issues in America today all centering around income inequality and its repercussions, she was happy to pander to Large Donors and Wall Street CEOs to get support at the expense of the people that really needed her support

Your analysis of the situation mirror nicely the EST Dems reasoning that lost them a shock election to Trump with his populous politics targeted working class America, the same working class America that the Dems are supposed to care about and fight for. The EST Dems have lost their way and people like yourself support their views, your all walking toward another cliff in 2024, oblivious to the real reason Trump became president

The Dems must be honest with themselves and stop making excuses, America needs champions right now to lift the lower income workers and struggling or they will continue to be shocked as they continue to pander to the powerful by attacking anyone even in their own party that wants to change the status quo (Universal Healthcare, College Free tuition, The Green New Deal) 

 



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Rab said:

The reason Trump won wasn't because of Bernie's policies which have very high approval ratings with the working class (Trump Supporters) and the young (Universal Healthcare, College Free tuition, The Green New Deal), nore was it Bernie's supporters abstaining to vote for Hillary (Hillary supporters abstained in greater numbers from voting for Obama in 2008) Hillary was generally a despised figure, her approval was extremely low in many polls 

What killed it for Hillary was her lack of any policy that addresses the real systemic issues in America today all centering around income inequality and its repercussions, she was happy to pander to Large Donors and Wall Street CEOs to get support at the expense of the people that really needed her support

Your analysis of the situation mirror nicely the EST Dems reasoning that lost them a shock election to Trump with his populous politics targeted working class America, the same working class America that the Dems are supposed to care about and fight for. The EST Dems have lost their way and people like yourself support their views, your all walking toward another cliff in 2024, oblivious to the real reason Trump became president

The Dems must be honest with themselves and stop making excuses, America needs champions right now to lift the lower income workers and struggling or they will continue to be shocked as they continue to pander to the powerful by attacking anyone even in their own party that wants to change the status quo (Universal Healthcare, College Free tuition, The Green New Deal) 

The Republicans have been losing the policy war for years, but winning the messaging argument. Republicans are real good at messaging and this isn't something that can be addressed by simply embracing popular policies. For decades, Republicans have been stoking the flames of a culture war with wedge issues. That is why so many Democrats are so milquetoast. The right's reactionary politics works well at making people afraid of change by highlighting small bits that make people afraid. Take Medicare for All for example. You are right to say that it is popular among voters, so what do Republicans do? They talk about how Bernie advocates to ban private healthcare, which is largely necessary for M4A. The vast majority of voters don't support abolishing private health insurance, both Dem and otherwise. 

So Democrats seek to find a policy position that will step on the fewest toes, which is largely what we saw from Biden. He does what he can to appeal to the M4A crowd, without wandering into issues that the Republicans can use as a wedge. 

As such, I think this mindset of "just go left, stupid" is completely missing the point. There is a reason why AOC works so damn well for Republicans. As soon as you stop worrying about the toes that you are stepping on, you are giving the Republicans ammo in the messaging game. As such, at a federal level, politics is a war of messaging and that is the highest hurdle to climb, and it cannot be done with policy alone...



So apparently they are going to the US Supreme Court to try to throw out Pennsylvania's outcome. 

https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/alito-demands-briefs-in-pennsylvania-congressmans-lawsuit-to-flip-the-election/

Is this still nothing to worry about? Seeing an attempt to overthrow a democratic election result in a world superpower is quite disturbing, and doesn't the current SCOTUS lean right wing by 6:3?

Last edited by curl-6 - on 06 December 2020

Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

curl-6 said:

So apparently they are going to the US Supreme Court to try to throw out Pennsylvania's outcome. 

https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/alito-demands-briefs-in-pennsylvania-congressmans-lawsuit-to-flip-the-election/

Is this still nothing to worry about? Seeing an attempt to overthrow a democratic election result in a world superpower is quite disturbing, and doesn't the current SCOTUS lean right wing by 6:3?

Actually this is a very interesting case and one that I want to see if the SC will even look at it.  First, because the GOP are trying to throw out mail in ballots after a  policy reform a year later when the GOP did not even blink on trying to contest it until now.  Not only were the Presidential elections were run with that policy reform but also the primaries with no contest by the GOP.  Its the whole reason the SC in PA threw it out because its pretty much bogus.  Trying to come in after you lost when you had plenty of time to appeal a year ago or even during the primaries just shows its pretty much a dumb case. Just because the justice are right leaning doesn't mean they do not respect their job.  Its hard enough to get the SC to even hear a case and first and foremost they would need something very substantial to interfere with the elections.  So I would still say its nothing to worry about because its all a political game.  This is as much as an image seeking farce then anything with any meat but it should be interesting to see how this goes.



sundin13 said:
Rab said:

The reason Trump won wasn't because of Bernie's policies which have very high approval ratings with the working class (Trump Supporters) and the young (Universal Healthcare, College Free tuition, The Green New Deal), nore was it Bernie's supporters abstaining to vote for Hillary (Hillary supporters abstained in greater numbers from voting for Obama in 2008) Hillary was generally a despised figure, her approval was extremely low in many polls 

What killed it for Hillary was her lack of any policy that addresses the real systemic issues in America today all centering around income inequality and its repercussions, she was happy to pander to Large Donors and Wall Street CEOs to get support at the expense of the people that really needed her support

Your analysis of the situation mirror nicely the EST Dems reasoning that lost them a shock election to Trump with his populous politics targeted working class America, the same working class America that the Dems are supposed to care about and fight for. The EST Dems have lost their way and people like yourself support their views, your all walking toward another cliff in 2024, oblivious to the real reason Trump became president

The Dems must be honest with themselves and stop making excuses, America needs champions right now to lift the lower income workers and struggling or they will continue to be shocked as they continue to pander to the powerful by attacking anyone even in their own party that wants to change the status quo (Universal Healthcare, College Free tuition, The Green New Deal) 

The Republicans have been losing the policy war for years, but winning the messaging argument. Republicans are real good at messaging and this isn't something that can be addressed by simply embracing popular policies. For decades, Republicans have been stoking the flames of a culture war with wedge issues. That is why so many Democrats are so milquetoast. The right's reactionary politics works well at making people afraid of change by highlighting small bits that make people afraid. Take Medicare for All for example. You are right to say that it is popular among voters, so what do Republicans do? They talk about how Bernie advocates to ban private healthcare, which is largely necessary for M4A. The vast majority of voters don't support abolishing private health insurance, both Dem and otherwise. 

So Democrats seek to find a policy position that will step on the fewest toes, which is largely what we saw from Biden. He does what he can to appeal to the M4A crowd, without wandering into issues that the Republicans can use as a wedge. 

As such, I think this mindset of "just go left, stupid" is completely missing the point. There is a reason why AOC works so damn well for Republicans. As soon as you stop worrying about the toes that you are stepping on, you are giving the Republicans ammo in the messaging game. As such, at a federal level, politics is a war of messaging and that is the highest hurdle to climb, and it cannot be done with policy alone...

The Est Dems are so worried about what the Reps will say that they have repeated the same Rep talking points about the Progressives, arguably the most enthusiastic and youngest/future faction in the Dems

For example the Est Media and Est Dems constantly asked the Progressive Dems "How much will Universal Healthcare cost?" (Rep talking point), they constantly used the same arguments of cost blow outs even when the Progressives explained that actually costs would go down for everyone (No more Premiums, No co-pays, cheaper medicine and hospital care, less Admin costs), but this was constantly ignored by the Est Media and Est Dems to downplay Sanders ideas to help get approval with the donor class for a Status Quo candidate like Biden

The Est Dems/Est Media also used the same Rep talking points on the "Socialism" of the Progressive Dems as if to try and tarnish their ideas as radical (The Progressives embraced the label)   

All the Est Dems/Media have done is weaken themselves as they stand for nothing unless it passes the Rep talking point test, they are the "Rep lite" party if not in name, but deeds  

Progressives have no time in pandering to the self-loathing and self-destructive Rep talking points, they want the Dems to stand for something on their own   



Rab said:
vivster said:

Because it's useless unless the US establish democracy. And to do that you have to vote democrats first. Voting 3rd party is not only throwing your vote away, it's working actively against what you try to achieve. Just like moronic Bernie supporters not voting for Hillary and effectively giving their vote to Trump, setting them back even further.

Voting against democrats in the US is voting against yourself unless you are a millionaire or a sociopath.

Rab said:

You must have missed the Dems presidential primaries when the Democratic establishment had concerns about nominating Sanders when it appeared he would win by having the enthusiasm with workers and the young for his very progressive policies and honesty, the Establishment then rallied to block Sanders in favour of Biden who up until then had low voter turnout and enthusiasm because his policies were status quo in nature  

There is a reason Trump became president, and it wasn't because of the Est Dems empathy and policy choices that favoured the working class, they wanted to stay in power not for the people (if so why not champion policies that favour the working class like Sanders did), but for the people in power and privilege (their own class) 

2024 could see the Reps get back in if the Dems don't change to better reflect the young and working class aspirations, if they just benefit the big donors and themselves as the ruling class they will be in trouble come 2024, unfortunately the makeup of the cabinet is setting this up for a bad 2024, mixed demographically but ideologically consistent with the status quo, the progressives with the enthusiastic base are not truly represented in Bidens cabinet picks

The Reps and Dems are different sides of the same bent coin, Sanders/AOC wanted to mint a new coin 

Dems lost against Trump because of politics, not because of their policy. Idiotic Bernie voters are actually one of the main reasons why Trump won. And I'm not saying people who support Bernie are idiots, I'm saying people who support Bernie and don't vote for Hillary or Biden are idiots.

The US is at a point where it literally does not matter how far left or right the policy of the established Democrats are. As long as they are left of whatever the Republicans do it's a Boolean choice. It doesn't matter if the chance to get more socialist policies with established democrats is only 0.1%. It's still more than 0%, which is what you get when you don't vote for Democrats.

While the difference of 0.1 doesn't seem big between Republicans and Democrats it is actually magnitudes apart. Which is why it is not helpful to say that they are similar. It'll only confuse the biggest morons on this planet, undecided voters.

The reason Trump won wasn't because of Bernie's policies which have very high approval ratings with the working class (Trump Supporters) and the young (Universal Healthcare, College Free tuition, The Green New Deal), nore was it Bernie's supporters abstaining to vote for Hillary (Hillary supporters abstained in greater numbers from voting for Obama in 2008) Hillary was generally a despised figure, her approval was extremely low in many polls 

What killed it for Hillary was her lack of any policy that addresses the real systemic issues in America today all centering around income inequality and its repercussions, she was happy to pander to Large Donors and Wall Street CEOs to get support at the expense of the people that really needed her support

Your analysis of the situation mirror nicely the EST Dems reasoning that lost them a shock election to Trump with his populous politics targeted working class America, the same working class America that the Dems are supposed to care about and fight for. The EST Dems have lost their way and people like yourself support their views, your all walking toward another cliff in 2024, oblivious to the real reason Trump became president

The Dems must be honest with themselves and stop making excuses, America needs champions right now to lift the lower income workers and struggling or they will continue to be shocked as they continue to pander to the powerful by attacking anyone even in their own party that wants to change the status quo (Universal Healthcare, College Free tuition, The Green New Deal) 

Yeah, no. If the American voter cared at all about policy they would've voted in droves for Hillary, completely disregarding her character or message. But they didn't and that shows there are more superficial factors deciding who they vote for. To me there are 2 factors:

1. She is generally very unlikable and never really tried to appear as being close to the working class or understanding their struggles. Basically she never positioned herself as someone you could get a drink with. She was the stereotypical stiff politician and people hate politicians. Not to mention she was seen as the villain who duped Bernie, the people's champion.

2. Too much confidence for Democrat voters. Nobody took Trump seriously and polls showed Hillary easily leading, which lead to widespread voter apathy among left leaning voters. 

This nicely contrasts with the latest election where the voting campaigns where much more insistent and constant and juxtaposed against a Trump who was absolutely hated now. Since he was already voted once there was a great fear he could do it again, so it drove more people to the polls. That is the one and only explanation for the increased voter turnout. It wasn't the policy of the progressives, it was their voting campaigns that helped secure the presidency.

This election there were 15 million more Democratic voters. Where do you think they came from? Certainly not defecting from the Trump camp. Those were people who just didn't bother going to the polls last time and the reason behind that certainly weren't that Hillary's policies weren't radical enough. Because if you are a progressive and don't vote for the established democrats you area a grade A moron and a terrible progressive at that.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.