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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Presidential Election Thread

Hiku said:
Machiavellian said:

The reason he will not see any time is because he was president.  Its more an image thing then anything else.  He will get a plea bargain deal if they have enough for a conviction and trust you me it will never reach court if they have a lock.  Dems are already talking about they are looking to let things slide because Biden has won the Presidency.  The US doesn't want to cause any more divide if possible and while Dems and liberals would love to see him serve time, it would only tarnish the image of the US more.  They would be more than happy if he just go away which is what they want more than anything else.

I get that they'll want to avoid the embarrassment of imprisoning their former president. But aside from the fact that I think having Trump as a president has been seen as a massive embarrassment anyway worldwide, if they don't make a very firm statement that it's not ok to sow widespread doubt on a presidential election with no proof, then every president can try to pull this when they lose.
And at this point protests and conspiracy theories may run rampant even if that person doesn't make direct accusations, because the damage has already been done to people's trust in the system, if there are no consequences for Trump.

You basically make a martyr of him if you throw him in jail.  You would basically fuel a large segment that he was witched hunted for for what he has done instead of just showing how baseless his attacks are.  An ex president in jail does not solve anything and it would not suddenly make the people who follow him suddenly drop him.  Also for most of these crimes, jail time would not really be long enough to pursue.  The the only real thing you probably going to get him with that is criminal is tax evasion and that's really not going to do much.  This is why I am saying it would never go to court because if NY had the goods, a plea deal would be done and it would be over.



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Machiavellian said:
Hiku said:

I get that they'll want to avoid the embarrassment of imprisoning their former president. But aside from the fact that I think having Trump as a president has been seen as a massive embarrassment anyway worldwide, if they don't make a very firm statement that it's not ok to sow widespread doubt on a presidential election with no proof, then every president can try to pull this when they lose.
And at this point protests and conspiracy theories may run rampant even if that person doesn't make direct accusations, because the damage has already been done to people's trust in the system, if there are no consequences for Trump.

You basically make a martyr of him if you throw him in jail.  You would basically fuel a large segment that he was witched hunted for for what he has done instead of just showing how baseless his attacks are.  An ex president in jail does not solve anything and it would not suddenly make the people who follow him suddenly drop him. 

Right, but it wouldn't be about convincing his cult following. It's about preventing future presidents from trying to pull the same stunt, since it would have no legal consequences.



Hiku said:
Machiavellian said:

You basically make a martyr of him if you throw him in jail.  You would basically fuel a large segment that he was witched hunted for for what he has done instead of just showing how baseless his attacks are.  An ex president in jail does not solve anything and it would not suddenly make the people who follow him suddenly drop him. 

Right, but it wouldn't be about convincing his cult following. It's about preventing future presidents from trying to pull the same stunt, since it would have no legal consequences.

Yeah but the things Trump would be tried for has nothing to do with him as President.  What I mean by that is that the things he has done in the past like the Tax evasion are things he did as a private citizen.  The things he has done as President, a lot of Americans do not view it the same as Dems and liberals.  I know this because I have a huge amount of conservative people I know and how they view the President is totally opposite and I am not even talking about the Religious Right either.  Putting the President in Jail would not stop anyone else leading a platform like him because 73 million votes says it works or to a degree.  Instead if the only thing you get him on is tax evasion then that would just be something linked more to his personal issues then how he gain the President seat.  There are many people waiting to take his place.  They will talk about America first, hug the flag and throw all the right patriot signals.  They will villianfy immigrants, other races and basically run with the same platform as the President because there is a large amount of voting people who love that stuff.  There are much smarter manipulators out their then Trump and they cannot wait to get their chance.  It probably would feel more fake with them because its hard to get that 3rd grade grammar and speech which seems to make his base feel he is one of them but their isn't any shortage of good actors out there that will not give it the college try.



Machiavellian said:
Hiku said:

Right, but it wouldn't be about convincing his cult following. It's about preventing future presidents from trying to pull the same stunt, since it would have no legal consequences.

Yeah but the things Trump would be tried for has nothing to do with him as President.  What I mean by that is that the things he has done in the past like the Tax evasion are things he did as a private citizen.  The things he has done as President, a lot of Americans do not view it the same as Dems and liberals.  I know this because I have a huge amount of conservative people I know and how they view the President is totally opposite and I am not even talking about the Religious Right either.  Putting the President in Jail would not stop anyone else leading a platform like him because 73 million votes says it works or to a degree.  Instead if the only thing you get him on is tax evasion then that would just be something linked more to his personal issues then how he gain the President seat.  There are many people waiting to take his place.  They will talk about America first, hug the flag and throw all the right patriot signals.  They will villianfy immigrants, other races and basically run with the same platform as the President because there is a large amount of voting people who love that stuff.  There are much smarter manipulators out their then Trump and they cannot wait to get their chance.  It probably would feel more fake with them because its hard to get that 3rd grade grammar and speech which seems to make his base feel he is one of them but their isn't any shortage of good actors out there that will not give it the college try.

Right, but even if they don't try him for anything related to this (although they could probably squeeze something in, considering the legal actions already taken against Rudy Giuliani and 30+ other Trump lawyers) the next president considering doing this again would know why the expected action of just letting the former president go didn't happen. And if he's too dumb to know, people around him would inform him of the risks. At least it's my hope that a clear line is drawn after this.



Hiku said:
Machiavellian said:

Yeah but the things Trump would be tried for has nothing to do with him as President.  What I mean by that is that the things he has done in the past like the Tax evasion are things he did as a private citizen.  The things he has done as President, a lot of Americans do not view it the same as Dems and liberals.  I know this because I have a huge amount of conservative people I know and how they view the President is totally opposite and I am not even talking about the Religious Right either.  Putting the President in Jail would not stop anyone else leading a platform like him because 73 million votes says it works or to a degree.  Instead if the only thing you get him on is tax evasion then that would just be something linked more to his personal issues then how he gain the President seat.  There are many people waiting to take his place.  They will talk about America first, hug the flag and throw all the right patriot signals.  They will villianfy immigrants, other races and basically run with the same platform as the President because there is a large amount of voting people who love that stuff.  There are much smarter manipulators out their then Trump and they cannot wait to get their chance.  It probably would feel more fake with them because its hard to get that 3rd grade grammar and speech which seems to make his base feel he is one of them but their isn't any shortage of good actors out there that will not give it the college try.

Right, but even if they don't try him for anything related to this (although they could probably squeeze something in, considering the legal actions already taken against Rudy Giuliani and 30+ other Trump lawyers) the next president considering doing this again would know why the expected action of just letting the former president go didn't happen. And if he's too dumb to know, people around him would inform him of the risks. At least it's my hope that a clear line is drawn after this.

I would love for that to be the case but if how the Republicans have backed up this whole fraud business so far I am not sure if their platform has changed for the worst,  The more educated of my conservative friends I will say believe its over but the ones who are not seem to listen to every word from the President as if it came from Jesus.  Its interesting how the dynamic between education and lack their of in perception and acceptance of BS.

On a federal level, I agree with Sundin that nothing will be done because the image of another President going after the previous one looks bad so any federal crimes that could be brought up will not happen.  On the State and local level there will probably be a number of lawsuits that come up but the majority have no prison time so it will just be a money grab.  The NY tax evasion is the bigger one on the table and probably has some legs but I just do not see them going for jail time.  Anyway, we will be seeing how this turn out real soon because things about to get real in the next month or 2.

What I am wondering is how many copy cat Trumps will be looking for a bid in 2024.  We should get a poll up and see how it fares because I at least see about 4 so far trying to make that move.



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Its interesting after reflection on the Trump Presidency that we have not had someone like him in such a long time. If I am to gauged how his presidency has gone and how big a following he has not to mentioned a huge voter turn out, you have to wonder how many will try to use the same formula. Its going to be very interesting to see how the US politically will be going forward. Trump could be the new pioneer for a new Republican party meaning his legacy could continue producing imitators looking to capitalize on this weakness within the Dems and strength within the populist type Trump movement. Its that feeling that he is out for the working man and against the elites (yes I know it was a myth but a myth that a lot of his voters believe he was championing). Populism hasn't been a thing in the US for a long time but I can definitely see it becoming a mainstay definitely going into 2024 as others and maybe even Trump might look to strike gold twice. The thing about movements of this sort is that its hard to keep the sizzle going. I believe 2024 will be every more interesting politically then 2020.



Put Bernie or AOC incharge of prosecution and you won't see them being squeamish, they will rightly Speak truth to power and make those in power answerable for any crimes without compromise or favour for the sake of those that have no power

There are many examples of AOC putting the fire to the feet of very powerful groups and individuals 

Last edited by Rab - on 23 November 2020

GSA has officially given Biden access to transition resources. Michigan and GA have both certified their votes. Wisconsin and/or Arizona makes it... even more official than it already essentially is.

Rab said:

Put Bernie or AOC incharge of prosecution and you won't see them being squeamish, they will rightly Speak truth to power and make those in power answerable for any crimes without compromise or favour for the sake of those that have no power

There are many examples of AOC putting the fire to the feet of very powerful groups and individuals 

Nah man. They're not prosecutors. It's a particular skillset that as much as I like Bernie and AOC they don't have. I would like it ideally to be someone perceived as politically neutral. If and when they go after Trump it will be fair and by the book.



JWeinCom said:

GSA has officially given Biden access to transition resources. Michigan and GA have both certified their votes. Wisconsin and/or Arizona makes it... even more official than it already essentially is.

Rab said:

Put Bernie or AOC incharge of prosecution and you won't see them being squeamish, they will rightly Speak truth to power and make those in power answerable for any crimes without compromise or favour for the sake of those that have no power

There are many examples of AOC putting the fire to the feet of very powerful groups and individuals 

Nah man. They're not prosecutors. It's a particular skillset that as much as I like Bernie and AOC they don't have. I would like it ideally to be someone perceived as politically neutral. If and when they go after Trump it will be fair and by the book.

AOC and Bernie are some the most honest people in politics, it's what they are known for, fair and by the book, that's them to a tee 



Rab said:
JWeinCom said:

GSA has officially given Biden access to transition resources. Michigan and GA have both certified their votes. Wisconsin and/or Arizona makes it... even more official than it already essentially is.

Nah man. They're not prosecutors. It's a particular skillset that as much as I like Bernie and AOC they don't have. I would like it ideally to be someone perceived as politically neutral. If and when they go after Trump it will be fair and by the book.

AOC and Bernie are some the most honest people in politics, it's what they are known for, fair and by the book, that's them to a tee 

Eh... fairly or not, they're perceived as partisan and will therefore be considered biased. 

But much more importantly, they have no legal experience. Which is kind of important for the person who is in theory the top lawyer in the federal government. The responsibilities are to prosecute and to give legal advice. I don't think they're qualified to do either.

It's not like being fair and tough is enough to handle a court case. The attorney general being someone who has never worked a case would be as far as I know unprecedented, and likely a train wreck.