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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Sakurai: Smash Bros has too many Fire Emblem characters and sword users

mZuzek said:
JWeinCom said:

Ummm yeah... but again no.

I popped into training mode for a second.  Ftilt will kill Mario off the edge of FD at around 110.  Unless there's some sweet spot to the jab I'm missing it doesn't even kill at 400.  Unless you're playing on like a stage with walkoff edges, and in those stages most stuff will KO you at 70%.

Chrom's Up B won't always kill you even if it hits you offstage... which it really shouldn't anyway.  Using it will always kill him though, unless it hits you right at the edge of the stage, in which case you're probably not going to be hit by the spike hitbox. As for Ike, his is a tad slower with the same horizontal range and I think the same vertical range.  But, just because they're similar moves doesn't necessarily mean they have to be balanced the same.  Ike has a horizontal recovery which mitigates the problem of aether as a recovery.  It deals like 5% less, so that's not a huge deal, especially since Ike is killing much faster. And he also has his jab which is a less powerful but much safer OOS option.  Chrom's jab is slower, so without Aether he'd have really no good OOS option aside from grab. 

Annoying is a personal preference.  In my opinion they're not even among the most annoying half of the cast.  But in terms of competitive balance, I can't really see any issue with them. 

Obviously it's not the jab itself that kills, but it confirms into back air on the entire cast at basically any % you're caught on. It's also super safe to throw out and covers many ledge options, what with its several active frames. Roy also has this, of course, but just as with anything regarding the two characters, it requires far less skill with Chrom - heck, Chrom's extended range means even jab to forward smash can be a kill confirm a lot of the time. And yeah, that kills ridiculously early.

I've been killed by Chrom's up B while on stage more times than I can count. If he's using it near the ledge, the best you can do is to just sit back and accept it, unless you have a good projectile or ridiculous disjoint like Byleth or the Belmonts. It is possible to edgeguard it, but getting killed at 0 is too big a risk. It's the same with Ike's, but Ike's Aether at least has a hitbox that makes some sense.

Also, Ike's Aether isn't a good out of shield option, unlike Chrom's, which is why the 26% is a big deal. Everytime you hit Chrom's shield, you eat 26% for free.

Still no.  I'm not going to spend any more time trying to find out when exactly jab to bair kills, but it's definitely not at 70 except maybe on Jigglypuff of something.  I'm also fairly sure it's not a true combo.  Jab sends way too far to combo into FSmash at KO percents.  Maybe you could nair into it, but that'd have to only work at a pretty limited range of percentiles.

Chroms jab is fairly slow for a jab as it comes out on frame 5.  It has like 3 active frames.  And it has 10 frames of lag, so it's not incredibly safe.

I honestly have no idea why you're getting killed with Chroms Up B more times than you can count.  Did you mean off stage?  There's close to no way he can kill you with it while off stage without also killing himself.  And if you are getting killed, you probably went way lower than you should have.  If you hover at edge level behind him, his only option is to try and B reverse it, which would kill him too.

There are really tons of vulnerabilities here.  Charizard or Bowser can make sure he eats a big chunk of fire damage before he gets back.  Palutena can throw out explosive flame which will most likely hit him and has o risk.  Any character with a counter can wreck his recovery if he's coming from beneath.  Pikachu and Pichu can harass him with thunder jolt, Ivysaur can hit him with Dair without going low enough to put himself at risk, or bair, or fair with very little risk.  Mii Brawler can hit him below the stage if he has the shot-put, Villager can safely f/bair if he goes horizontal, and can Fsmash him if he's coming from below, Squirtle and Mario can Fludd/Watergun him if he's far away and he has very limited, Piranah can force him to take poison damage or hit him with a spike ball,  etc etc.

Most characters can at least score free damage with next to no risk to themselves.  And even if you do have to take a risk, you have a good chance of succeeding, and if you don't he'll almost definitely have to kill you to stop it.  You may not want to try at 0%, but most of the time, you're not at 0%. His recovery is easily among the worst in the game.

As for the Up B as an OOS option, it's good, but you're ridiculously overselling it.  It comes out on frame 10, which is much slower than a grab for most characters, and much slower than most OOS options.  Even if you're frame perfect, a lot of aerials will be entirely safe on it unless you parry, and even then some will still be.  If it misses, you're open for 30 frames.  And 26% is nice, but at most percents, alot of characters can get that off a safer option like a grab.  For instance Charizard dthrow to fair which does 24, and if you get a pummel in, you're basically even with Chrom.  Granted it has a bit less range, but it is faster with significantly less risk.  

So... he's got a decent kill confirm, and a nice OOS option... Can't see that destroying competitive balance.  You gotta go easier with that ban hammer. 



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JWeinCom said:
mZuzek said:

Obviously it's not the jab itself that kills, but it confirms into back air on the entire cast at basically any % you're caught on. It's also super safe to throw out and covers many ledge options, what with its several active frames. Roy also has this, of course, but just as with anything regarding the two characters, it requires far less skill with Chrom - heck, Chrom's extended range means even jab to forward smash can be a kill confirm a lot of the time. And yeah, that kills ridiculously early.

I've been killed by Chrom's up B while on stage more times than I can count. If he's using it near the ledge, the best you can do is to just sit back and accept it, unless you have a good projectile or ridiculous disjoint like Byleth or the Belmonts. It is possible to edgeguard it, but getting killed at 0 is too big a risk. It's the same with Ike's, but Ike's Aether at least has a hitbox that makes some sense.

Also, Ike's Aether isn't a good out of shield option, unlike Chrom's, which is why the 26% is a big deal. Everytime you hit Chrom's shield, you eat 26% for free.

Still no.  I'm not going to spend any more time trying to find out when exactly jab to bair kills, but it's definitely not at 70 except maybe on Jigglypuff of something.  I'm also fairly sure it's not a true combo.

This is where I stopped.

Roy and Chrom's jab to bair is a universally well known kill confirm.



mZuzek said:
JWeinCom said:

Still no.  I'm not going to spend any more time trying to find out when exactly jab to bair kills, but it's definitely not at 70 except maybe on Jigglypuff of something.  I'm also fairly sure it's not a true combo.

This is where I stopped.

Roy and Chrom's jab to bair is a universally well known kill confirm.

I mean... you've been wrong about most everything you said regarding percentages, so I don't know why you think you can't be wrong on this.  But I'm a pretty reasonable guy.  Show me a video of it killing a character heavier than puff at 70 on a tournament legal stage against a human, and if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 05 February 2020

JWeinCom said:
mZuzek said:

This is where I stopped.

Roy and Chrom's jab to bair is a universally well known kill confirm.

I mean... you've been wrong about most everything you said regarding percentages, so I don't know why you think you can't be wrong on this.  But I'm a pretty reasonable guy.  Show me a video of it killing a character heavier than puff at 70 on a tournament legal stage against a human, and if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

Sorry for the delay, the power went out.

Have I been wrong about everything I said? There are many factors you have to consider when talking kill %s. Doing it vs. Mario on FD in training mode is a pretty standard way of going about it, but in a tournament that's not always going to be the situation. FD has a larger horizontal blast zone than a few other competitive stages. In actual matches, the opponent often has rage. 1v1 matches have a 1.2x damage multiplier, which also means earlier kills - this multiplier is only applied in training mode if you turn on Stale Moves. All of these factors can lead to earlier kills.

That said, the moment you said Jab to Bair isn't a true combo was when you basically admitted you know nothing about Roy/Chrom, at the very least. It's by far their most well-known and commonly used kill confirm, it's as bread and butter as it gets, every Roy/Chrom main knows it and does it regularly.


This video shows it pretty well. It kills Mario on FD at 80% (Roy) and 85% (Chrom), with DI. No rage, of course, so it can kill earlier during matches.

You also commented on how jab isn't safe because it has 10 frames of lag... well, technically, it has 16 frames, but yeah it is -10 on shield. Which, seriously, isn't much - it means it can only be punished by characters with a frame 9 or faster out of shield option, which sure many characters do have that, but because of Chrom's reach and significant shield pushback, it's not that easy to punish it in time with most characters - grabs in general will certainly not connect.

As for some of your other points... regarding up B killing on stage, I don't think you get what I mean. If you stand near the ledge and get hit by Chrom's up B, it often drags you inside and then spikes you backwards, which is a guaranteed 0% kill - he doesn't have to die for it, either, as he grabs the ledge after hitting you. Comparatively, Ike's doesn't really suck you in anywhere near as hard, and other "up-down" Up Bs generally don't have the 0% killpower either. Honestly, anything that kills at 0% isn't right in my book, unless it's a guaranteed suicide like Hero's Kamikazee or whatever (and funny enough, even that doesn't kill until 40% or so).

And ban hammer... lol. No one's asking for Chrom to be banned. I don't even think he's top 10, if that's what you're worried about. I just dislike how braindead he is compared to Roy, and similarly I dislike how braindead Lucina is compared to Marth. In most situations, they are strictly better than the original characters, while requiring far less skill to play. All I want is for the echoes to be as good as their counterparts, instead of being miles better - in my opinion, it is a balancing issue when the supposed clones are considerably better than the characters they're based on, even if they're not necessarily broken when compared to the rest of the cast.