Forums - Sports Discussion - The NFL Thread 2019: The Kansas City Chiefs Win Super Bowl LIV

Who do you believe will have a stronger defense in 2020?

Patriots 2 66.67%
 
Steelers 1 33.33%
 
Total:3
MTZehvor said:
KManX89 said:

4 legit super bowls>6 tainted cheating ones. After all, it's a bit easier to pass the test when you have the answers.

Luckily that ship has sailed and sunk:

Guess we should toss out Montana's too for his receivers using stickum to make the ball easier to catch, or for his linemen using silicone to make their jerseys easier for rushers to slip off of.

Man I truly hope I never become this desperate to discredit someone else.

The cheating by one does not absolve the cheating by another. 



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

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SpokenTruth said:
MTZehvor said:

Guess we should toss out Montana's too for his receivers using stickum to make the ball easier to catch, or for his linemen using silicone to make their jerseys easier for rushers to slip off of.

Man I truly hope I never become this desperate to discredit someone else.

The cheating by one does not absolve the cheating by another. 

No, it doesn't. That said, the point is less about absolving one team and more about pointing out a degree of hypocrisy in claiming "4 legit titles" when it's not even particularly challenging to find incidents of rule breaking by the supposedly legitimate team.

Clearly the Patriots broke rules at some point (although to this day there's questionable evidence at best that they were ever broken during a year when they actually won the Super Bowl). I don't think even the most diehard of fans will deny that. And, hey, if that simple fact on its own is enough for you to want to toss out all credibility in regards to their accomplishments, more power to you, I suppose. But at least be consistent with it. I'd wager that I could fairly easily go back and find some incidents of knowingly breaking the rules to implicate virtually any and all Super Bowl winners. So if you want to dismiss the Patriots, go ahead. But you should also be dismissing the 49ers of the 1980s for the aforementioned reasons, the Steelers of the 1970s for widespread steroid usage, the Cowboys of the 1990s for circulating a team program to allow players to take banned substances, the Raiders of the 1970s for having doctors disperse PEDs among players and...quite literally having a sign in the locker room saying "cheating is encouraged," numerous teams for circumventing the salary cap, numerous teams for intentionally falsifying injury reports, etc. Plenty more I can cite if that's somehow not enough.

Just, y'know, be consistent.



I was legit upset when the corona situation led to XFL being canceled. I quite enjoyed it. Hopefully NFL season doesn't get delayed too long. I want to see who the championship mind truly was. Tom or Bill.



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

hatmoza said:
I was legit upset when the corona situation led to XFL being canceled. I quite enjoyed it. Hopefully NFL season doesn't get delayed too long. I want to see who the championship mind truly was. Tom or Bill.

I'm pretty sure there will be a 2020 NFL season but more then likely they will have to play some games in empty stadiums especially in LA and NY.  The Bucs are legit contenders in the NFC.  The Patriots will probably be no better then 6-10 the Bills will easily win the AFC East and should be better then the Patriots for some time to come. 



sethnintendo said:
hatmoza said:

Dunno if anyone here cares too much about the new XFL that just kicked off its historic franchise season opening a few hours ago. I would love if we could continue this thread with XFL predictions if enough people care about it.

Since I'm here I'll give my thoughts so far.

XFL offense is not as strong as its defense. At least in my opinion. Even though the game was predicted to be high scoring, offense don't have enough skill to produce that many points, while the defense of these players is shockingly OP at times.

The fast pace design of the XFL is exhausting the players. These players look fucking tired and we're only in the second quarter. Even the players themselves said to sideline reporter questions that they didn't realize how much energy they'd need to expend in the real games.

I really like the new kickoff rules. Feels much safer, and it stops feeling unnatural after a while.

I'm not feeling the 1, 2, and 3 extra points attempts after touchdowns. They just seem too difficult to convert, similarly as difficult as the 2pc in the NFL, if not harder due to the below average offense these teams have. It makes you appreciate the high success rates of a typical 1 point field goal.

I don't like how we can hear the coaches through the mic making calls. It takes away from the mystery of the play calls and it's only a matter of time before it becomes exploited

Hmm sounds like I'll pass but I'll maybe watch a game or two.  No offense huh.  Need to bring back hehateme from original xfl league.  He is probably too old now though. The league will probably fold again like first one after a year or two.

There was actually a decent spring league USFL in USA during the 80s that even got some high profile players from college that after the league folded wound up in the NFL. Apparently Trump ruined the league trying to get it merge with the NFL.  He got the league to switch it to fall to I guess compete directly with NFL but that move proved to be a disaster.  In his quest for an attempt to become an owner of NFL team by having his USFL team become a NFL team it brought down the entire league.  Just one of his many failures.

The USFL first two seasons where actually pretty good but in the third season attendance dropped dramatically and ended up loosing 163 million during its existence.



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Chris Hu said:
hatmoza said:
I was legit upset when the corona situation led to XFL being canceled. I quite enjoyed it. Hopefully NFL season doesn't get delayed too long. I want to see who the championship mind truly was. Tom or Bill.

I'm pretty sure there will be a 2020 NFL season but more then likely they will have to play some games in empty stadiums especially in LA and NY.  The Bucs are legit contenders in the NFC.  The Patriots will probably be no better then 6-10 the Bills will easily win the AFC East and should be better then the Patriots for some time to come. 

Perhaps the Bills win the East, but come on, 6-10 for the Patriots? They were easily the #1 defense in the league last year, and virtually the entire starting roster on that side of the ball is back. That alone sets the floor at 8 wins, imo. Throw in still having the greatest coach of all time and the best special teams in the league, and I think 10-11 wins is still very attainable.

Obviously losing Brady hurts, no one will dispute that. But let's also not forget that since the Brady/Belichick era began, the Patriots are 13-6 in games that Brady hasn't started. The NFL's certainly unpredictable, so I'll never call anything in this league impossible, but probably 6-10 or worse feels like an insult for a team that returns most of what was the league's best defense last year. It's worth noting that you have to go all the way back to 2010 to find a team with the best defense that missed the playoffs, and that only happened because the team with the best defense that year (the Chargers) lost five games because their special teams allowed a touchdown or a blocked punt that served as the margin of victory. Despite all of that, that team still won 9 games.

Throw in the league's best special teams, and the fact that New England is still being run by the most successful coach in NFL history, and I'd personally be very surprised if they finish below .500.

Last edited by MTZehvor - on 24 April 2020

MTZehvor said:
Chris Hu said:

I'm pretty sure there will be a 2020 NFL season but more then likely they will have to play some games in empty stadiums especially in LA and NY.  The Bucs are legit contenders in the NFC.  The Patriots will probably be no better then 6-10 the Bills will easily win the AFC East and should be better then the Patriots for some time to come. 

Perhaps the Bills win the East, but come on, 6-10 for the Patriots? They were easily the #1 defense in the league last year, and virtually the entire starting roster on that side of the ball is back. That alone sets the floor at 8 wins, imo. Throw in still having the greatest coach of all time and the best special teams in the league, and I think 10-11 wins is still very attainable.

Obviously losing Brady hurts, no one will dispute that. But let's also not forget that since the Brady/Belichick era began, the Patriots are 13-6 in games that Brady hasn't started. The NFL's certainly unpredictable, so I'll never call anything in this league impossible, but probably 6-10 or worse feels like an insult for a team that returns most of what was the league's best defense last year. It's worth noting that you have to go all the way back to 2010 to find a team with the best defense that missed the playoffs, and that only happened because the team with the best defense that year (the Chargers) lost five games because their special teams allowed a touchdown or a blocked punt that served as the margin of victory. Despite all of that, that team still won 9 games.

Throw in the league's best special teams, and the fact that New England is still being run by the most successful coach in NFL history, and I'd personally be very surprised if they finish below .500.

Easily #1 Defense? By the end of the year they were pretty badly exposed, and it was more fitting to call them a top 5 defense at best. You can say they had the best secondary, and maybe still do, but they were shown to be a defense that's mostly great in situational football and could never stop the run.

"Virtually the entire starting roster on that side of the ball is back." Have you actually paid any attention to player transactions?

"Since the Brady/Belichick era began, the Patriots are 13-6." Convenient that you said the 'Brady/Belichick' era, and not just the Belichick era, otherwise you'd have to add an extra 5-11 season. And that's doing him a service because it doesn't include the Browns years.
Are you gonna mention how he went 11-5 with Matt Cassel? A roster that was 3mins away from being perfect the previous year, and then didn't make the playoffs, with a QB who went on to make a Pro Bowl 2 years laters with the Chiefs and have a statistically better season.
Were you also gonna mention that every QB that's played a full season for Belichick has been a Pro Bowler at some point, but the only one to make the Pro Bowl with Belichick was Tom Brady? Two of them were also former no.1 picks.

Honestly, it just keeps getting more clear how delusional you are. I'm not even trying to disprove that Bill Belichick is the best coach in the league, because he is. But when you look at how hard it was for the Steelers to win 8 games last year with arguably the second best coach in the league, and right now the Patriots aren't as good or talented on either side of the ball, just looking at the team on paper. No one can win games alone (especially if they're not even on the field), and you should've realised that by now.
This isn't even taking into account that it just wouldn't be smart for the Patriots to win games next season, when they really should be jockeying for the best possible draft position to get a QB. Or do you actually believe Jarret Stidham is the future?

I mean, it wasn't bad enough that you spent the whole of last season in denial, but here you are still in denial, believing the Patriots can still get away with not having to rebuild after 20 years, even after the cornerstone of the team has left.
You should be more concerned about whether Belichick has enough years left in him to successfully rebuild the team, and hopefully get a new era started for the next coach on the right track. And a lot of that will be probably be down to luck, just like it was the first time round.



Shaunodon said:
MTZehvor said:

Perhaps the Bills win the East, but come on, 6-10 for the Patriots? They were easily the #1 defense in the league last year, and virtually the entire starting roster on that side of the ball is back. That alone sets the floor at 8 wins, imo. Throw in still having the greatest coach of all time and the best special teams in the league, and I think 10-11 wins is still very attainable.

Obviously losing Brady hurts, no one will dispute that. But let's also not forget that since the Brady/Belichick era began, the Patriots are 13-6 in games that Brady hasn't started. The NFL's certainly unpredictable, so I'll never call anything in this league impossible, but probably 6-10 or worse feels like an insult for a team that returns most of what was the league's best defense last year. It's worth noting that you have to go all the way back to 2010 to find a team with the best defense that missed the playoffs, and that only happened because the team with the best defense that year (the Chargers) lost five games because their special teams allowed a touchdown or a blocked punt that served as the margin of victory. Despite all of that, that team still won 9 games.

Throw in the league's best special teams, and the fact that New England is still being run by the most successful coach in NFL history, and I'd personally be very surprised if they finish below .500.

Easily #1 Defense? By the end of the year they were pretty badly exposed, and it was more fitting to call them a top 5 defense at best. You can say they had the best secondary, and maybe still do, but they were shown to be a defense that's mostly great in situational football and could never stop the run.

"Virtually the entire starting roster on that side of the ball is back." Have you actually paid any attention to player transactions?

"Since the Brady/Belichick era began, the Patriots are 13-6." Convenient that you said the 'Brady/Belichick' era, and not just the Belichick era, otherwise you'd have to add an extra 5-11 season. And that's doing him a service because it doesn't include the Browns years.
Are you gonna mention how he went 11-5 with Matt Cassel? A roster that was 3mins away from being perfect the previous year, and then didn't make the playoffs, with a QB who went on to make a Pro Bowl 2 years laters with the Chiefs and have a statistically better season.
Were you also gonna mention that every QB that's played a full season for Belichick has been a Pro Bowler at some point, but the only one to make the Pro Bowl with Belichick was Tom Brady? Two of them were also former no.1 picks.

Honestly, it just keeps getting more clear how delusional you are. I'm not even trying to disprove that Bill Belichick is the best coach in the league, because he is. But when you look at how hard it was for the Steelers to win 8 games last year with arguably the second best coach in the league, and right now the Patriots aren't as good or talented on either side of the ball, just looking at the team on paper. No one can win games alone (especially if they're not even on the field), and you should've realised that by now.
This isn't even taking into account that it just wouldn't be smart for the Patriots to win games next season, when they really should be jockeying for the best possible draft position to get a QB. Or do you actually believe Jarret Stidham is the future?

I mean, it wasn't bad enough that you spent the whole of last season in denial, but here you are still in denial, believing the Patriots can still get away with not having to rebuild after 20 years, even after the cornerstone of the team has left.
You should be more concerned about whether Belichick has enough years left in him to successfully rebuild the team, and hopefully get a new era started for the next coach on the right track. And a lot of that will be probably be down to luck, just like it was the first time round.

Ah, how I missed you and your lovely penchant for dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as delusional or in denial.

>Easily #1 Defense? By the end of the year they were pretty badly exposed

Over the final seven games of the season, they only gave up more than 350 yards in a game once. They forced more than one turnover a game. They never allowed a team to reach 30 points, and only two teams surpassed 24. All of those measures are best in the NFL. So, yes, easily #1 defense in the league. The 49ers, widely regarded as the second best defense in the league for comparison's sake, gave up 350 yards in a game or more twice times (as well as 348 yards once), 400 yards once, 30 points or more twice, and forced "only" one turnover per game. The only games in which they were "exposed," as you put it, were Baltimore (who exposed just about everyone up until the playoffs) and the Derrick Henry palooza, which given what he did to both Baltimore and KC (at least before Vrabel just decided to stop running the ball), I'm not too embarrassed about either.

>Have you actually paid any attention to player transactions?

..have you? Assuming the Patriots stick with their 3-4 scheme (which, again, things can change depending on personnel), last year's starters were J. McCourty, D. McCourty, Gilmore, Chung, Hightower, Collins, Simon, Van Noy, Guy, Winovich, and Shelton. We return 8 of those 11 starters. That's pretty damn close to keeping the entirety of your statistically best defense in the league back. And most of the holes can be filled by players who played significant time last year while not in a starting position.

>"Since the Brady/Belichick era began, the Patriots are 13-6." Convenient that you said the 'Brady/Belichick' era, and not just the Belichick era, otherwise you'd have to add an extra 5-11 season. And that's doing him a service because it doesn't include the Browns years.

This argument gets wheeled out so often that it's quite frankly tiresome. Yes, Belichick had a rough start to his career in New England. But, for the love of God, that was 20 fucking years ago, in his first year with a new team. One would think there just might be some difference in how well someone performs after being with a team for not even a full season vs. being with a team for 8 or 16 years. Or, for that matter, how someone coaches two decades ago versus now.

>Are you gonna mention how he went 11-5 with Matt Cassel? A roster that was 3mins away from being perfect the previous year, and then didn't make the playoffs, with a QB who went on to make a Pro Bowl 2 years laters with the Chiefs and have a statistically better season.

...so your argument is that Belichick's teams are worse without the best QB of all time? Man, there's a surprise.

The point isn't that the 08 Patriots didn't suffer from not having Brady; it's that he was able to keep the team afloat with an inexperienced QB who had never started a game before. Sure, they missed the playoffs, but they won 11 games, and only missed the playoffs due to incredibly unfortunate luck. And, yes, that is quite impressive imo. Compare it to something like the 2011 Colts, who went from 11-5 with Peyton Manning to 2-14 without him. Your coach and how well they've prepared is extremely important in keeping a team afloat in a scenario where your best player is no longer available.

>But when you look at how hard it was for the Steelers to win 8 games last year with arguably the second best coach in the league, and right now the Patriots aren't as good or talented on either side of the ball, just looking at the team on paper.

You're...absolutely crazy if you think the Steelers' probable 2020 defense is as good as the Patriots. The Patriots are better at every single secondary position than the Steelers. Gilmore is better than Haden. J McCourty is better than Nelson. D. McCourty is better than Fitzpatrick. Chung is easily better than...Terrell Edmunds or whoever ends up as the Steelers' second safety. Bentley is better than Bush. Guy is better than Tuitt. Wise is better than Wormley.

The only positions that the Steelers potentially outdo the Patriots on defense is LB1 with Watt vs. Hightower, and DL #2 with Heyward vs. whoever the Patriots end up starting there (probably Allen). And Watt vs. Hightower is, at the very worst, close. New England's defense, especially the secondary, is far superior to Pittsburgh's.

>This isn't even taking into account that it just wouldn't be smart for the Patriots to win games next season, when they really should be jockeying for the best possible draft position to get a QB. Or do you actually believe Jarret Stidham is the future?

I'd like to see him play in a real game before making a judgement on that. He's showed promise in preseason against starting lineups, but that is obviously preseason. I wouldn't bet on him being "the future," but I'm also not going to rule it out, either. Given your status as a...what are you now, a Tampa fan since Tom's moved there? A guy with a weird desire to only cheer for a single player? Whatever the case...I would imagine you of all people should know that late round picks shouldn't immediately be dismissed.

>I mean, it wasn't bad enough that you spent the whole of last season in denial, but here you are still in denial, believing the Patriots can still get away with not having to rebuild after 20 years, even after the cornerstone of the team has left.

...what exactly was I in denial of? My team won 12 games with an offense so injured we would've embarrassed the 2013 squad. Yeah, playoffs didn't end up how I hoped, but that's life in the NFL. 2009 and 2010 teams met a similar fate, and I don't think predicting a win then would've been "denial" either.



I'm happy with the Broncos first pick. I was hoping for Jeudy or Lamb and they got Jeudy. I think Lamb has more big play ability but Denver already has Sutton for that, Jeudy is a more well rounded rookie.

Regarding the Patriots returning their elite defense, it will be interesting to see if they fare better against what should be a tougher schedule without nearly as many cupcake quarterbacks. And we did see them get exposed and kind of crumble midway through the season. They went into the Ravens game allowing under 8 points a game and then played five straight decent to great offenses and gave up double digit points in four of the five games, went 2-3 in that stretch and also gave up double digit points in their last three games, all to some of the worst offenses in football last season.

They started the season off against such horrid competition, it kind of set them up to finish as an elite ranked defense though. I mean they played Luke Faulk, Fitz/Rosen, Darnold, Jones, Mayfield, and Colt McCoy. The only good QB was Big Ben in his only game of the season in the opener. And who can really even say if Ben is still good. They gave up 200 rushing yards to the Titans in a game where Henry rushed it over 30 times. They knew exactly what was coming and still couldn't stop it. Not the calling of a really elite defense. They're good, but they have plenty of holes.

Of course, playing in the AFC Least, they'll still have six easy games on defense per year by default, barring some huge leap in play by Sam Darnold or Josh Allen. But they do also have KC, Baltimore, Houston, and the NFC West on the schedule, which includes three quality offenses. I doubt they'll finish #1 again.



LudicrousSpeed said:
I'm happy with the Broncos first pick. I was hoping for Jeudy or Lamb and they got Jeudy. I think Lamb has more big play ability but Denver already has Sutton for that, Jeudy is a more well rounded rookie.

Regarding the Patriots returning their elite defense, it will be interesting to see if they fare better against what should be a tougher schedule without nearly as many cupcake quarterbacks. And we did see them get exposed and kind of crumble midway through the season. They went into the Ravens game allowing under 8 points a game and then played five straight decent to great offenses and gave up double digit points in four of the five games, went 2-3 in that stretch and also gave up double digit points in their last three games, all to some of the worst offenses in football last season.

They started the season off against such horrid competition, it kind of set them up to finish as an elite ranked defense though. I mean they played Luke Faulk, Fitz/Rosen, Darnold, Jones, Mayfield, and Colt McCoy. The only good QB was Big Ben in his only game of the season in the opener. And who can really even say if Ben is still good. They gave up 200 rushing yards to the Titans in a game where Henry rushed it over 30 times. They knew exactly what was coming and still couldn't stop it. Not the calling of a really elite defense. They're good, but they have plenty of holes.

Of course, playing in the AFC Least, they'll still have six easy games on defense per year by default, barring some huge leap in play by Sam Darnold or Josh Allen. But they do also have KC, Baltimore, Houston, and the NFC West on the schedule, which includes three quality offenses. I doubt they'll finish #1 again.

I mean, giving up double digit points is...kind of to be expected in the NFL, even for great defenses. Even the incredible 2015 Broncos defense gave up double digit points in 15 of the 16 games they played, and all three of their playoff games. You have to go back to some of the truly all time greats to find teams that were repeatedly preventing teams from scoring past single digits, like the 2013 Seahawks or 2000 Ravens. And, even in those cases, most of those games were against teams with bad quarterbacks. In this day and age, with the rules skewed towards offense as much as they are, you're not going to be consistently holding teams under ten points without the offense not playing up to snuff too.

But that's kind of my point about talking about the second half of the season; even if you just look at the second half, the Patriots were still #1 in most statistical categories. They were #1 in yards allowed, #1 in points allowed, #1 in turnovers forced. Did they have a few bad performances? Absolutely. Even though it doesn't get factored into the general team statistics since the NFL doesn't include postseason games, the Tennessee game wasn't a great look (although Henry did tear up the best regular season team in the league the next week and the eventual Super Bowl champs until Mike Vrabel decided to stop running the ball). But the same can be said of, well, any good defense last year. The 49ers defense got shredded for 465 yards by the Saints. The Bills got 414 yards put up on them by that awful Patriots offense of last year, and 426 by the Cowboys. The Ravens had their own dismal performance against Derrick Henry. The Steelers gave up 400 yards three weeks in a row. 

Those are the other four best defenses in the league by yards allowed from last season, and each of them has at least one performance (usually more) that make them look nothing like an elite defense. Maybe we had a year last season where there weren't any "elite" defenses. Maybe that's how the league just is now with all the concessions to offense. Either way, two bad performances don't break a claim for best defense of 2019 imo.