Forums - Movies Discussion - Matrix 4’ Officially a Go With Keanu Reeves, Carrie-Anne Moss and Lana Wachowski

Ka-pi96 said:
DonFerrari said:

Them you are the one bullshitting.

Samurai X ended like 20 years ago and stay that way, Saint Seiya the same (there was plan for Zeus since the begining, but it is taking a lifetime) but this have spin-off, even Dragon Ball the manga finished.

You don't get reboots and the few that get unexpected sequels are ones that story is close to not existing.

Never even heard of Samurai X (and I'm sure I could list plenty of western things that you've never heard of that haven't been remade/rebooted/sequeled too).

And Dragonball? ha! The manga may have ended, but the anime? That never stayed done! And you absolutely do get reboots and/or remakes too, Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood for one (one of my favourite anime of all time, but still a reboot/remake).

If you don't know rurouni no kenshin (samurai X) then I could only assume you read/watch very little manga or anime.

You can count on a hand the number of reboots and milk sequels after the story is closed for manga (the anime stayed done for like 20 years, from GT - never covered in the manga - up to super, with some movies/ovas throw one time or another that are inconsequential).

About manga that never end, your other point, I don't remember any that was done like this without the story demanding it (or writer being partially lazy). There are like 4 or 5 I can remember that are like 40-50 year running (no reboot in between like would happen with Comics) and they are either not tied story.

The very long ones (20 years or so) that haven't finished but have a story, Berserker (writer put a chapter every 3 months or so nowadays), One Piece (weekly going and the story have been moving forward with we knowing more or less we expect it to finish since like 2 years into it), Hunter x Hunter (writer also entered major hiatus).



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Hiku said:
COKTOE said:
I liked the first one in spite of the fact that Neo came back from the dead because of Trinity's wish love. Or is is love wish? They can do whatever they want after that nonsense.

I didn't interpret it as him coming back because Trinity wished it.
The Oracle told Neo that he was in fact not The One. But she also left him with this message:"Being The One is just like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love, you just know it." 
Just like everything in the Matrix, as Morpehous demonstrated to Neo when explaining why he was faster and stronger than him, the limitations on a person is related to what they're able to believe. If his brain thinks he hit the pavement for real, he will start to bleed. Neo didn't fully believe that he was The One, until that moment, because of what The Oracle had told him.

Yeah, there's different ways to look at it to be sure. At that point in time, in the real world, he was dead. If you wanted to look at it in a more clinical way, you could say that although Neo was dead, he wasn't brain dead, and therefore it's possible he still heard Trinity. He was also still connected to the Matrix. Trinity's words jolted him back into the world of the living, which also caused him to return to life within the Matrix. I hope I'm making sense. I had a rough sleep last night. But just tonally, that scene felt off to me when I first saw it. I think I rolled my eyes and muttered something. Ha. At the very least, what you said makes sense.



Chinese food for breakfast

 

DonFerrari said:
Ka-pi96 said:

I call bullshit.

Manga and anime rarely seem to even end. And when they do they don't stay that way either.

Them you are the one bullshitting.

Samurai X ended like 20 years ago and stay that way, Saint Seiya the same (there was plan for Zeus since the begining, but it is taking a lifetime) but this have spin-off, even Dragon Ball the manga finished.

You don't get reboots and the few that get unexpected sequels are ones that story is close to not existing.

Actually both Samurai X and Dragonball manga got continuations daces after they ended, and are still ongoing.



Dragonball started up again shortly before the Battle of Gods movie, and is released on a monthly basis.



Ruroni Kenshin (Samurai X) got a continuation in 2018.

- Naruto continued with his son, Boruto.
- One Piece is still ongoing, and will still be by the time our great grandkids are born.
- Gundam gets a new series every few years.
- Berserk is still ongoing.
- Hunter x Hunter is still ongoing. (Sort of...)
- Hajime no Ippo is still ongoing.
- Fairy Tale continued with a spinoff after the ending of the original.
- Sailor Moon got a reboot after decades. (Decades = at least 1 decade or more.)
- Captain Tsubasa got a continuation after decades.
- Akira is getting a new anime after decades.
- Ruroni Kenshin continued after decades.
- Dragonball continued after decades.
- Death Note will get an 87 page one-shot manga after decades.
- Yu Yu Hakusho got a new movie in 2019 after decades.
- Code Geass got a continuation movie after decades.
- Neon Genesis Evangelion got a reboot and a continuation after decades.
- Stein's;Gate got a continuation after 9 years.

I can go on, but there's a lot of revival going on in popular manga/anime as well. And some have been ongoing for 20+ years and refuse to end.
And we're only going to see more of these come back as time goes on. I'm hyped for the new Akira though. The original was too short and didn't even cover 1/4 of the manga's story.

Last edited by Hiku - on 21 August 2019

estebxx said:
Keannu Reves has had one of the biggest resurgences an actor could ask for.

Unpopular opinion: but i really enjoyed the PS2 Matrix games, i just had a lot of fun with them...

Never played Enter the Matrix, but I played the shit out of The Path of Neo. Great game that deserves a remastered version. Fun fact, the guy who does Neo's voice in that game played Keanu Reeves in sketches on MadTV for a few years.



Hiku said:
DonFerrari said:

Them you are the one bullshitting.

Samurai X ended like 20 years ago and stay that way, Saint Seiya the same (there was plan for Zeus since the begining, but it is taking a lifetime) but this have spin-off, even Dragon Ball the manga finished.

You don't get reboots and the few that get unexpected sequels are ones that story is close to not existing.

Actually both Samurai X and Dragonball manga got continuations daces after they ended, and are still ongoing.



Dragonball started up again shortly before the Battle of Gods movie, and is released on a monthly basis.



Ruroni Kenshin (Samurai X) got a continuation in 2018.

- Naruto continued with his son, Boruto.
- One Piece is still ongoing, and will still be by the time our great grandkids are born.
- Gundam gets a new series every few years.
- Berserk is still ongoing.
- Hunter x Hunter is still ongoing. (Sort of...)
- Hajime no Ippo is still ongoing.
- Fairy Tale continued with a spinoff after the ending of the original.
- Sailor Moon got a reboot after decades. (Decades = at least 1 decade or more.)
- Captain Tsubasa got a continuation after decades.
- Akira is getting a new film after decades.
- Ruroni Kenshin continued after decades.
- Dragonball continued after decades.
- Death Note will get an 87 page one-shot manga after decades.
- Yu Yu Hakusho got a new movie in 2019 after decades.
- Code Geass got a continuation movie after decades.
- Neon Genesis Evangelion got a reboot and a continuation after decades.
- Stein's;Gate got a continuation after 9 years.

I can go on, but there's a lot of revival going on in popular manga/anime as well. And some have been ongoing for 20+ years and refuse to end.
And we're only going to see more of these come back as time goes on. I'm hyped for the new Akira though. The original was too short and didn't even cover 1/4 of the manga's story.

Samurai X kinemaban is a material done to tell the same history on the movie, so it isn't neither sequel nor reboot.

Boruto is ridiculous, but yes it is a sequel.

Gundam is a series not one book so not sure why you are trying to fit it in here.

Captain Tsubasa get new series following the development (age) of the char, with each story being closed before.

Sure you can go on, and still that wouldn't be the norm of manga, it is with several of the stuff you put something that started happening couple of years ago.

The stories that have been going for 20 years haven't been finished and aren't being streched, so no sense in mixing them together.

Akira is even funnier because you are admiting it isn't really getting a sequel, the movie just told a part of the story and didn't continue.

When we get like almost every comic hero book rebooted every 5-10 years to tell the same story we can think about making things equivalent.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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DonFerrari said:

The stories that have been going for 20 years haven't been finished and aren't being streched.



Barkley said:
DonFerrari said:

The stories that have been going for 20 years haven't been finished and aren't being streched.

Do you read Berserker, Hunter Hunter, Hajime no Ippo, One Piece?

Berserker is taking this long because instead of 52 chapters a year he do like 3. On average size it isn't that long of a story and when reading the plot there isn't slowness.

Hunter Hunter, similar situation, story is on a good pace but 5 year hiatus one after the other make story take a long time.

Hajime no Ippo needs Takamura winning 7 world titles and Ippo one, first is on the way to get his 3rd. The fights take longer than should, but the number of fights isn't out of acceptable

One Piece, the aim from the start was telling the story in about 1000 chapters (he is getting close to it). He is reaching the level near of the strongest folks but shall take 200-500 chapters to end.

Just because something takes a long time doesn't mean it is streached.

Some people live 10 others 80, that doesn't mean 80 years is a streached life. Life takes the time lifes take.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:

Samurai X kinemaban is a material done to tell the same history on the movie, so it isn't neither sequel nor reboot.


The picture I posted wasn't from Kinema-ban (2012). However, Kinema-ban is an alternate version of the original manga. Characters meet in a totally different situation than they do in the first series.
Which is why it's referred to as a reboot, or a reinvention.







The movie you're referring to is a live-action film that came out after this manga began.

What I was talking about though, and the picture I attached to my previous post, is from the Hokkaido manga, which is a direct sequel, and began in December 2017.



"Following the events of Rurouni Kenshin, an older Kenshin has settled down with his wife Kaoru"

This series is by no means over, with new chapters still coming out in 2019.

DonFerrari said:

Gundam is a series not one book so not sure why you are trying to fit it in here.

Because you made a point of how "Dragonball anime stayed done for 20 years". So anime/manga that go on and on would be the opposite of that.
Though also because some of those Gundam stories do get sequels or reboots/a re-telling after they reach an ending.

Gundam SEED for example was written as a self contained story that was supposed to end where it ended. But due to its popularity, and the sale of toys/models, Sunrise and Bandai decided they wanted a sequel. And a prevalent opinion among fans was that it should have ended with the original story. Same comment you made about Matrix 1.
Although the difference is that at the end of Gundam SEED the antagonists had been defeated. At the end of Matrix 1, the antagonists (except for the agents) still remained a problem that needed to be resolved. And the writers planned for it to be a trilogy from the start.

DonFerrari said:
Sure you can go on, and still that wouldn't be the norm of manga, it is with several of the stuff you put something that started happening couple of years ago.

It's not the norm for movies either. But due to the format of feature films (120 minutes or so), one part isn't enough to match the length of anime/manga with multiple arcs.
Though 'norm' wasn't what you originally said, but "once something is done is done."

And that definitely doesn't apply to neither Kenshin nor Dragonball, or many other popular anime/manga series.

DonFerrari said:
The stories that have been going for 20 years haven't been finished and aren't being streched, so no sense in mixing them together.

Stories that go on consistently for 20+ years are commonly being stretched. And take that much longer to reach their (temporary?) ending. Because they don't have time to write as much of the story they want to write, due to publishers pressuring them for new chapter consistently. So they instead write what they're able to come up with in that short time frame.

Akira Toriyama began writing Majin Buu arc chapters before he even thought about Majin Buu. He started writing simple things like Gohan going to school and playing baseball, and stopping bank robbers, while he was thinking up the more important plot points.
That's not an ideal way of writing. But Shounen Jump wanted their weekly chapters, etc.
If they had given him time to breathe, the story would naturally have been shorter.

Some of these long running stories were supposed to end much earlier than they did. Dragonball as an example again, was originally supposed to end when they first collected all dragonballs.

Fuyuto Takeda: And then serialization began, but from the beginning, how much of the story had you already planned?
Toriyama:I hadn’t thought it up at all. I figured it would probably end in about a year, and I had only really prepared storyboards for three chapters.
Dragon Ball, which I planned on lasting one year when I started, has now been in serialization so long that it’s surpassed Dr. Slump! I feel both happy and scared…

What was originally intended to be a story that would span 50 chapters or so, became 519. And now it has an additional 48 more, and still going.

DonFerrari said:

Akira is even funnier because you are admiting it isn't really getting a sequel, the movie just told a part of the story and didn't continue.

No one knows what the new Akira anime will be yet.
However, I said that the anime didn't cover 1/4 of the story. Not that it didn't end. It did.
It ends with the same battle as the final manga battle, but the road there had been different from the manga. But more notably than what was told differently is how much of the manga it skipped, since it skipped a lot more than it changed.

If it ends up being a continuation of the 1988 film, then it would be a new story. Code Geass for example recently did that this year, 11 years after it had originally ended.
Whatever it ends up being though, it's a noteworthy anime to mention. As with the new Matrix.

Also, I didn't make fun of anything you said. And I planned on continuing to be courteous in my replies. But since you unnecessarily decided to throw in "its even funnier", do you also find it funny that you not only gave two of the worst possible examples of manga that were "done", but also reprimanded @Ka-pi96 for not knowing Kenshin to mean he "probably knows very little anime/manga", when you were oblivious to Kenshin having an ongoing sequel. Even after I said so and posted a picture.

Being mistaken is fine. But starting to be condescending for no reason is usually not a good idea in a discussion.

Last edited by Hiku - on 22 August 2019

JRPGfan said:
dharh said:

Was it the outside?  Are we not all living in a simulator?  A movie about machines creating a matrix within a matrix to escape from to give us the illusion that we are freeing ourselves of The Matrix? While us watching the movie are inside of A Matrix?  Blew your mind.

Also.  New doesn't exist anymore.  The entertainment industry is pretty much out of material at this point.

Thats basically the "only" way I can see them makeing sense of it...

Hiku said:
COKTOE said:
I liked the first one in spite of the fact that Neo came back from the dead because of Trinity's wish love. Or is is love wish? They can do whatever they want after that nonsense.

I didn't interpret it as him coming back because Trinity wished it.
The Oracle told Neo that he was in fact not The One. But she also left him with this message:"Being The One is just like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love, you just know it." 
Just like everything in the Matrix, as Morpehous demonstrated to Neo when explaining why he was faster and stronger than him, the limitations on a person is related to what they're able to believe. If his brain thinks he hit the pavement for real, he will start to bleed. Neo didn't fully believe that he was The One, until that moment, because of what The Oracle had told him.

Neo basically has to have powers inside what's known or thought to be the real world, if the dream inside a dream plot is going to work. Neo mentions he can feel the machines in the real world and is somehow tied to them in a non physical manner, even though that shouldn't be possible. This already leaves the door open to the real world just being another level in the Matrix.

It also means each level doesn't play by the same rules. In the base Matrix he can fly and stop bullets, but can't stop other programs or people by just thinking it, where as he can in the real world like with the sentinels. Both levels have different rules. Which would be super important to bringing back Trinity as a 'real' physical person, since it's explained to Neo by Morpheus early on, that if you die in the Matrix, you die in the real world, because "the body cannot live without the mind". This would mean Trinity is dead for good, unless in the thought to be real world level, due to the different rules, you may not be dead for good in whatever the actual real world is, and potentially can be brought back.

This also would leave another massive question. Is the humans vs machines backstory even true? Since the humans are enslaved by the machines in the base Matrix, who is enslaving the machines then in the thought to be real world Matrix?

Something else to ask about the way in which the Matrix trilogy plays out is, is it really the best thing for the humans and did Neo actually make any major choices? The Oracle and Architect tell Neo the problem is choice, but throughout the movie, he's constantly manipulated by the Oracle to do what she wants. He's even manipulated by everyone else who's been manipulated by the Oracle to do what she wants. She just so happens to be a program built by the Architect that's apparently helping the humans now, and even though they say choice is the major problem in the Matrix and why it eventually fails, the Oracle really doesn't allow Neo to make to many big choices. She's constantly manipulating him to go down the path she wants. She tells him things like "knowing you're the one is like knowing you're in love", and "everything that has a beginning has an end", which cause him to make major decisions based on her advice. What he believes in is constantly based on what she tells him, even though some seems useful and true and some seems useless and nonsense. When she tells him, 'I promise, as soon as you're finished eating that cookie, you'll feel right as rain', what happens afterwards is just the opposite.

If it is a Matrix inside a Matrix, I couldn't help but wonder are the machines using and manipulating the humans to get out of the real world Matrix? Maybe the humans haven't actually been given much of a choice all along.

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 21 August 2019

EricHiggin said:

Neo basically has to have powers inside what's known or thought to be the real world, if the dream inside a dream plot is going to work. Neo mentions he can feel the machines in the real world and is somehow tied to them in a non physical manner, even though that shouldn't be possible. This already leaves the door open to the real world just being another level in the Matrix.

It also means each level doesn't play by the same rules. In the base Matrix he can fly and stop bullets, but can't stop other programs or people by just thinking it, where as he can in the real world like with the sentinels. Both levels have different rules. Which would be super important to bringing back Trinity as a 'real' physical person, since it's explained to Neo by Morpheus early on, that if you die in the Matrix, you die in the real world, because "the body cannot live without the mind". This would mean Trinity is dead for good, unless in the thought to be real world level, due to the different rules, you may not be dead for good in whatever the actual real world is, and potentially can be brought back.

This also would leave another massive question. Is the humans vs machines backstory even true? Since the humans are enslaved by the machines in the base Matrix, who is enslaving the machines then in the thought to be real world Matrix?

Something else to ask about the way in which the Matrix trilogy plays out is, is it really the best thing for the humans and did Neo actually make any major choices? The Oracle and Architect tell Neo the problem is choice, but throughout the movie, he's constantly manipulated by the Oracle to do what she wants. He's even manipulated by everyone else who's been manipulated by the Oracle to do what she wants. She just so happens to be a program built by the Architect that's apparently helping the humans now, and even though they say choice is the major problem in the Matrix and why it eventually fails, the Oracle really doesn't allow Neo to make to many big choices. She's constantly manipulating him to go down the path she wants. She tells him things like "knowing you're the one is like knowing you're in love", and "everything that has a beginning has an end", which cause him to make major decisions based on her advice. What he believes in is constantly based on what she tells him, even though some seems useful and true and some seems useless and nonsense. When she tells him, 'I promise, as soon as you're finished eating that cookie, you'll feel right as rain', what happens afterwards is just the opposite.

If it is a Matrix inside a Matrix, I couldn't help but wonder are the machines using and manipulating the humans to get out of the real world Matrix? Maybe the humans haven't actually been given much of a choice all along.

Neo having powers in the real world does raise the question if that was really the real world, or another layer of the Matrix.
Though I don't know if such a convoluted twist would work well, 17 years after the original. 

On the other hand, I don't have high expectations for the story anyway. Matrix was the most interesting to me after the first film, when speculating about the many different things that could happen. I wasn't particularly intrigued with the way the story of the next two films played out, for the most part.
But there are some plot points they could flesh out or clarify that would be interesting, such as the Oracle's story that you mentioned.

I wonder if they'll use CGI to have Neo and Trinity look young again, or if they'll look older.

Last edited by Hiku - on 21 August 2019