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Machiavellian said:

Let me ask you this question, how much digging did the hill do on Trump.  How many articles and shows did they do concerning the multiple sexual allegations against him.  I could not find any but since you watch their show, where would you find such info.  It would be interesting to see this balance you are talking about.

The Hill didn't exist in it's current form back in 2015/16. The Hill TV (which is what Krystal Ball is a part of) was launched in the middle of 2018.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

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I'm gonna point out one single thing that certain people keep missing. It is not the job of the people to vote for the politician, it is the job of the politician to convince the people to support him. When I say support I mean give them some reason to vote for the person, not against some evil on the other side, especially if the politician in question is practically as evil.

People have policy positions, and should support politicians that hold similar positions as them. If you do not believe in the positions I believe in, I will not vote for you and many others are like that. I also have to believe that you're not blowing hot air (obama) and truly believe the things you say and would fight for them. Biden isn't offering anything to the left yet he's demanding the votes. You can point out the terrible offers he's giving to the left that aren't gonna do anything, as him offering something but then I would simply point out to you that I also don't believe him cause he has a 40 year history of punching left.

You can't voter shame people like that and you can't go off about how bad Trump is to people like that and in fact, that's how people in this country and the rest of the world should be. We should have positions that we hold dear, and if our politicians don't support these positions we don't support them until they do.

I pointed this out to certain people numerous times, you'd vote for the nominee regardless of who it is, I'd only vote for the nominee if they supported the positions I believe in and I trusted them to do so. Only 2 people on that stage I trusted to that degree and only 1 had the support to pull off a possible win against the system that's designed to crush people like him. In the end he was crushed and with that I have 0 reasons to vote for either of the 2 main parties in november. Moving on policy is very important, but trust is more important and Biden can never win that from the left.

Let me explain segments of the real left to you. There are progressive leftist, this is the group that would probably go for Biden after Sanders to stop Trump. Honestly, they buy into the lesser of 2 evils but they're not motivated and might even just not vote. There's the populist Left, these people aren't gonna vote for Biden they oppose him. They'll vote for policies and Biden can possibly win them over by moving policy but its hard cause they still wouldn't trust him.

The Hard left, These are the true uncompromising people you think that I am but I'm more populist than anything else. These are the ones who would find things like you believing in russia gate and immediately throw away support for you. They comb through every word you said to see if you were using some CIA talking point before considering you. They'd vet you so hard that its not funny, but you want to know something about the hard left? They may not support you in the primary because you don't align with them but in the general if you're somehow like a Bernie or a Tulsi, they would possibly take a chance on you and push you over the edge.

The Progressive left are the ones who were fooled by Warren for the most part, The Populist left are the ones who voted on Policy and Trust and were 100% Sanders the entire time while also cursing him out whenever he'd give into things that the hard left pretty much came out and said screw you bernie for. There's another group which is derived from all 3 which is the angry left and well, they are more likely to vote Trump just to say screw you to the dems. Either way, you can't voter shame these people because they would laugh you out of the room and people see how disgusting Biden supporters have been to those who don't want to vote and have been turned off of how toxic his supporters are. But hey its not my problem.

tl:dr Biden has the blue no matter who crowd and the tiny never trump republican crowd. If Bernie was the nominee, he'd have the progressive left, Populist left and some of the hard left + vote blue no matter who crowd. But again its not my problem. If you want Biden to win, go phone bank and text for him do the work and put in the time cause you're not gonna win people over by saying Trump bad. We Know, and Biden aint much better so good luck.



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Even if Biden wasn't making a singular concession or outreach to progressives (which he has, even The Intercept was impressed by the task force https://theintercept.com/2020/05/14/biden-unity-task-force-ocasio-cortez/ ), even if that was the case, voting against Trump should be enough.

The argument that Trump in itself is not enough is selfish. He has done innumerable things to hurt as many communities as he possibly could in a very short of time with just the executive powers. If that's not enough, then it was never about helping people.

Last edited by Moren - on 20 May 2020

Moren said:

Even if Biden wasn't making a singular concession or outreach to progressives (which he has, even The Intercept was impressed by the task force https://theintercept.com/2020/05/14/biden-unity-task-force-ocasio-cortez/ ), even if that was the case, voting against Trump should be enough.

The argument that Trump in itself is not enough is selfish. He has done innumerable things to hurt as many communities as he possibly could in a very short of time with just the executive powers. If that's not enough, then it was never about helping people.

You railed against Bernie and his policies all primary long full well knowing it would actually help poc and marginalized communities and it would have been way easier to unify under him. You have absolutely no ground to stand on. If you really wanted to help people you'd have vote Bernie or Warren or help push Biden left. Instead you hurl insults and vote shame others for not wanting poc to be taken for granted once again and then thrown to the side. It seems it was never about helping people.

Trump didn't invent bigotry and systematic racism, and it won't stop with him, it was put in place by both parties over the centuries and neither are going to cede real ground unless POC and working class people organize and work together and demand policies that'll help them thrive. This isn't a game, it's people's lives, it's my life and it's yours too.

A task force isn't M4A, a task force isn't going to save our country from the climate crisis, a task force isn't going to stop voter suppression. We must demand these things because it won't be given to us if we keep settling for crumbs.



 

tsogud said:
Moren said:

Even if Biden wasn't making a singular concession or outreach to progressives (which he has, even The Intercept was impressed by the task force https://theintercept.com/2020/05/14/biden-unity-task-force-ocasio-cortez/ ), even if that was the case, voting against Trump should be enough.

The argument that Trump in itself is not enough is selfish. He has done innumerable things to hurt as many communities as he possibly could in a very short of time with just the executive powers. If that's not enough, then it was never about helping people.

You railed against Bernie and his policies all primary long full well knowing it would actually help poc and marginalized communities and it would have been way easier to unify under him. You have absolutely no ground to stand on. If you really wanted to help people you'd have vote Bernie or Warren or help push Biden left. Instead you hurl insults and vote shame others for not wanting poc to be taken for granted once again and then thrown to the side. It seems it was never about helping people.

Trump didn't invent bigotry and systematic racism, and it won't stop with him, it was put in place by both parties over the centuries and neither are going to cede real ground unless POC and working class people organize and work together and demand policies that'll help them thrive. This isn't a game, it's people's lives, it's my life and it's yours too.

A task force isn't M4A, a task force isn't going to save our country from the climate crisis, a task force isn't going to stop voter suppression. We must demand these things because it won't be given to us if we keep settling for crumbs.

Just because you think Bernie is the only one who can help people and improve lives doesn't make it an objective fact, and it sure as hell doesn't make you the moral arbiter you pretend to be. And "easier to unify"? That's laughable. My hate for Trump would have personally made me hold my nose and support Bernie, but let's not be revisionist and pretend the voters didn't unify against Bernie as soon as they could. Maybe Warren was tracking to be a better unifier, but the left ditched her too - huge missed opportunity. Also, while you're at it, stop pretending to speak for all people of color.

Trump didn't invent bigotry or systematic racism, sure. But we can all close our eyes and pretend he hasn't put an extraordinary burden on vulnerable communities that wouldn't have existed under a Democrat, or accept reality for what it is.

A task force with people like the Sunrise co-founder, Jayapal, El-Sayed and AOC creates accountability and gives them a voice on the table. 

Last edited by Moren - on 20 May 2020

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Moren said:
tsogud said:

You railed against Bernie and his policies all primary long full well knowing it would actually help poc and marginalized communities and it would have been way easier to unify under him. You have absolutely no ground to stand on. If you really wanted to help people you'd have vote Bernie or Warren or help push Biden left. Instead you hurl insults and vote shame others for not wanting poc to be taken for granted once again and then thrown to the side. It seems it was never about helping people.

Trump didn't invent bigotry and systematic racism, and it won't stop with him, it was put in place by both parties over the centuries and neither are going to cede real ground unless POC and working class people organize and work together and demand policies that'll help them thrive. This isn't a game, it's people's lives, it's my life and it's yours too.

A task force isn't M4A, a task force isn't going to save our country from the climate crisis, a task force isn't going to stop voter suppression. We must demand these things because it won't be given to us if we keep settling for crumbs.

Just because you think Bernie is the only one who can help people and improve lives doesn't make it an objective fact, and it sure as hell doesn't make you the moral arbiter you pretend to be. And "easier to unify"? That's laughable. My hate for Trump would have personally made me hold my nose and support Bernie, but let's not be revisionist and pretend the voters didn't unify against Bernie as soon as they could. Maybe Warren was tracking to be a better unifier, but the left ditched her too - huge missed opportunity. Also, while you're at it, stop pretending to speak for all people of color.

Trump didn't invent bigotry or systematic racism, sure. But we can all close our eyes and pretend he hasn't put an extraordinary burden on vulnerable communities that wouldn't have existed under a Democrat, or accept reality for what it is.

A task force with people like the Sunrise co-founder, Jayapal, El-Sayed and AOC creates accountability and gives them a voice on the table. 

@bolded: Don't put words into my mouth. I've stated numerous times how my views differs from Sanders. I don't expect Sanders to fully understand what poc go through, especially queer poc, because after all he is an old white cis man but at least he tried his level best and his policies were the most universal in the whole primary and helped the most vulnerable. I would've voted for Warren if she was the nominee, despite her ignorance regarding my people, because at least she was competent and could be swayed left more easily because she's not stubborn like Biden.

Also don't tone police me, if it's my truth and if it's the truth of most poc then I will speak about it and raise awareness. You sure as hell aren't. I'm not a moral arbiter and I don't pretend to be but if you think so that's you convicting your own self. That's says more about you then it does me and maybe you need to reevaluate your ideals and stance but honestly that's none of my business and I won't speak on it further.

And weren't you the one in this thread that said they'd not vote for Bernie if he was the nominee?? I could be wrong but it was said and I think it was you. In any case that's irrelevant now.

I'm not looking for a white savior or savior of any kind, I'm looking for someone who will fight for the people even when the weight and pressure of the rich and powerful are against them. It doesn't start and end with the presidency but the people would've had major pull if the president is on their side instead of the wealthy and well-connected.

I personally like Obama and thought his presidency for the most part was well handled but you can't just close your eyes and pretend he didn't have innocent blood on his hands. Not to mention cruel border control policies and infrastructure put in place by his administration. You can put your rose-colored glasses on because you have that privilege but for the people who were directly affected there's no difference in the cruelty being perpetuated whether it's by a Democrat or Republican.

I want a progressive woc like Nina Turner as his VP but I'll settle for Warren though. I'm closely looking at his VP choice to see if he really is trying to adopt a more populist platform and administration.

I'd really appreciate it if that in the future for you to stop with the personal attacks and just focus on the topic at hand. It's for everybody's benefit when discussing topics as personal as politics. 

Last edited by tsogud - on 20 May 2020

 

tsogud said:
Moren said:

Just because you think Bernie is the only one who can help people and improve lives doesn't make it an objective fact, and it sure as hell doesn't make you the moral arbiter you pretend to be. And "easier to unify"? That's laughable. My hate for Trump would have personally made me hold my nose and support Bernie, but let's not be revisionist and pretend the voters didn't unify against Bernie as soon as they could. Maybe Warren was tracking to be a better unifier, but the left ditched her too - huge missed opportunity. Also, while you're at it, stop pretending to speak for all people of color.

Trump didn't invent bigotry or systematic racism, sure. But we can all close our eyes and pretend he hasn't put an extraordinary burden on vulnerable communities that wouldn't have existed under a Democrat, or accept reality for what it is.

A task force with people like the Sunrise co-founder, Jayapal, El-Sayed and AOC creates accountability and gives them a voice on the table. 

@bolded: Don't put words into my mouth. I've stated numerous times how my views differs from Sanders. I don't expect Sanders to fully understand what poc go through, especially queer poc, because after all he is an old white cis man but at least he tried his level best and his policies were the most universal in the whole primary and helped the most vulnerable. I would've voted for Warren if she was the nominee, despite her ignorance regarding my people, because at least she was competent and could be swayed left more easily because she's not stubborn like Biden.

Also don't tone police me, if it's my truth and if it's the truth of most poc then I will speak about it and raise awareness. You sure as hell aren't. I'm not a moral arbiter and I don't pretend to be but if you think so that's you convicting your own self. That's says more about you then it does me and maybe you need to reevaluate your ideals and stance but honestly that's none of my business and I won't speak on it further.

And weren't you the one in this thread that said they'd not vote for Bernie if he was the nominee?? I could be wrong but it was said and I think it was you. In any case that's irrelevant now.

I'm not looking for a white savior or savior of any kind, I'm looking for someone who will fight for the people even when the weight and pressure of the rich and powerful are against them. It doesn't start and end with the presidency but the people would've had major pull if the president is on their side instead of the wealthy and well-connected.

I personally like Obama and thought his presidency for the most part was well handled but you can't just close your eyes and pretend he didn't have innocent blood on his hands. Not to mention cruel border control policies and infrastructure put in place by his administration. You can put your rose-colored glasses on because you have that privilege but for the people who were directly affected there's no difference in the cruelty being perpetuated whether it's by a Democrat or Republican.

I want a progressive woc like Nina Turner as his VP but I'll settle for Warren though. I'm closely looking at his VP choice to see if he really is trying to adopt a more populist platform and administration.

I'd really appreciate it if that in the future for you to stop with the personal attacks and just focus on the topic at hand. It's for everybody's benefit when discussing topics as personal as politics. 

Again, talking as if you held the universal truth. Your truth is not the truth of most POC as the primary results showed.

Here. I said it numerous times, even when it seemed Bernie was going to be the nominee:

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9110596

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9102135

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9090699

Whatever mistakes Obama had, his administration was in many respects a lot of steps forward. The scope of the damage Trump has done is not in the same ballpark. Trump has gone after the LGBT community, refugees, DACA recipients, schools and it's all been a major regression. And don't accuse me of having some kind of abstract privilege just because I actually am pragmatic.

I'm all for a left-leaning VP like Warren, but populism is the worst cancer, and I'm glad we stopped it and we'll finally destroy it this November.

Last edited by Moren - on 20 May 2020

Trump isnt the real issue, Trump is a symptom of the real issue, until we change the system to include all the people and not just give a dominiate voice to the elites (both Dems and Reps) the people will suffer

Bernie was going a long way to help the people particularly poc with plans for the Green New Deal, M4A, Higher Basic Income and other programs that often helped poc the most proportionally, it's not good enough to vote for the establishment again and get shafted again, Trump isnt the issue



Moren said:
tsogud said:

@bolded: Don't put words into my mouth. I've stated numerous times how my views differs from Sanders. I don't expect Sanders to fully understand what poc go through, especially queer poc, because after all he is an old white cis man but at least he tried his level best and his policies were the most universal in the whole primary and helped the most vulnerable. I would've voted for Warren if she was the nominee, despite her ignorance regarding my people, because at least she was competent and could be swayed left more easily because she's not stubborn like Biden.

Also don't tone police me, if it's my truth and if it's the truth of most poc then I will speak about it and raise awareness. You sure as hell aren't. I'm not a moral arbiter and I don't pretend to be but if you think so that's you convicting your own self. That's says more about you then it does me and maybe you need to reevaluate your ideals and stance but honestly that's none of my business and I won't speak on it further.

And weren't you the one in this thread that said they'd not vote for Bernie if he was the nominee?? I could be wrong but it was said and I think it was you. In any case that's irrelevant now.

I'm not looking for a white savior or savior of any kind, I'm looking for someone who will fight for the people even when the weight and pressure of the rich and powerful are against them. It doesn't start and end with the presidency but the people would've had major pull if the president is on their side instead of the wealthy and well-connected.

I personally like Obama and thought his presidency for the most part was well handled but you can't just close your eyes and pretend he didn't have innocent blood on his hands. Not to mention cruel border control policies and infrastructure put in place by his administration. You can put your rose-colored glasses on because you have that privilege but for the people who were directly affected there's no difference in the cruelty being perpetuated whether it's by a Democrat or Republican.

I want a progressive woc like Nina Turner as his VP but I'll settle for Warren though. I'm closely looking at his VP choice to see if he really is trying to adopt a more populist platform and administration.

I'd really appreciate it if that in the future for you to stop with the personal attacks and just focus on the topic at hand. It's for everybody's benefit when discussing topics as personal as politics. 

Again, talking as if you held the universal truth. Your truth is not the truth of most POC as the primary results showed.

Here. I said it numerous times, even when it seemed Bernie was going to be the nominee:

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9110596

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9102135

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9090699

Whatever mistakes Obama had, his administration was in many respects a lot of steps forward. The scope of the damage Trump has done is not in the same ballpark. Trump has gone after the LGBT community, refugees, DACA recipients, schools and it's all been a major regression. And don't accuse me of having some kind of abstract privilege just because I actually am pragmatic.

I'm all for a left-leaning VP like Warren, but populism is the worst cancer, and I'm glad we stopped it and we'll finally destroy it this November.

Being a centrist or moderate doesn't make you pragmatic whatsoever. How you go about your policies and implementing them whether your a populist, centrist, leftist, liberal, or conservative makes you pragmatic. Shunning a whole group of voters, actively encouraging toxic rhetoric and shaming, and being divisive like you continue to do isn't pragmatism either. Obviously you have some kind of personal vendetta against populism for some reason, which is incredibly odd and not rational or pragmatic.

The fact of the matter is that most Americans and an overwhelming majority of Democrats believe we should have universal single payer healthcare, with M4A specifically being the most popular plan, yet we have Biden as the nominee. Clearly it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Politics is complicated and why someone votes the way they do or not vote at all varies. There are many factors at play but populism isn't dead, that's a foolish thing to insinuate, it's alive and thriving and will continue to thrive past this election and the next.

Most POC haven't voted yet and most won't vote at all in this primary, so having the primary results be the determinate of our truth is disingenuous and factually incorrect. Just listen when a fellow human speaks their piece on how to improve their lives. I guarantee you that you won't find "balancing the deficit" or making sure the executives and CEOs of the oil and healthcare industry are well taken of in their truths.

Being privileged ain't a bad thing, what you do with your privilege makes all the difference. Are you gonna shut the door behind you? Or are you gonna help the most vulnerable? Are you gonna push your candidate to adopt inclusive, universal policies or are you gonna hurl insults and vote shame poor people to vote for another rich and powerful person who they know don't really care?

Last edited by tsogud - on 21 May 2020

 

Rab said:

Trump isnt the real issue, Trump is a symptom of the real issue, until we change the system to include all the people and not just give a dominiate voice to the elites (both Dems and Reps) the people will suffer

Bernie was going a long way to help the people particularly poc with plans for the Green New Deal, M4A, Higher Basic Income and other programs that often helped poc the most proportionally, it's not good enough to vote for the establishment again and get shafted again, Trump isnt the issue

This is said perfectly, I have nothing else to add, I just wanted to highlight this.

tsogud said:
Moren said:

Again, talking as if you held the universal truth. Your truth is not the truth of most POC as the primary results showed.

Here. I said it numerous times, even when it seemed Bernie was going to be the nominee:

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9110596

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9102135

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9090699

Whatever mistakes Obama had, his administration was in many respects a lot of steps forward. The scope of the damage Trump has done is not in the same ballpark. Trump has gone after the LGBT community, refugees, DACA recipients, schools and it's all been a major regression. And don't accuse me of having some kind of abstract privilege just because I actually am pragmatic.

I'm all for a left-leaning VP like Warren, but populism is the worst cancer, and I'm glad we stopped it and we'll finally destroy it this November.

Being a centrist or moderate doesn't make you pragmatic whatsoever. How you go about your policies and implementing them whether your a populist, centrist, leftist, liberal, or conservative makes you pragmatic. Shunning a whole group of voters, actively encouraging toxic rhetoric and shaming, and being divisive like you continue to do isn't pragmatism either. Obviously you have some kind of personal vendetta against populism for some reason, which is incredibly odd and not rational or pragmatic.

The fact of the matter is that most Americans and an overwhelming majority of Democrats believe we should have universal single payer healthcare, with M4A specifically being the most popular plan, yet we have Biden as the nominee. Clearly it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Politics is complicated and why someone votes the way they do or not vote at all varies. There are many factors at play but populism isn't dead, that's a foolish thing to insinuate, it's alive and thriving and will continue to thrive past this election and the next.

Most POC haven't voted yet and most won't vote at all in this primary, so having the primary results be the determinate of our truth is disingenuous and factually incorrect. Just listen when a fellow human speaks their piece on how to improve their lives. I guarantee you that you won't find "balancing the deficit" or making sure the executives and CEOs of the oil and healthcare industry are well taken of in their truths.

Being privileged ain't a bad thing, what you do with your privilege makes all the difference. Are you gonna shut the door behind you? Or are you gonna help the most vulnerable? Are you gonna push your candidate to adopt inclusive, universal policies or are you gonna hurl insults and vote shame poor people to vote for another rich and powerful person who they know don't really care?

To add to this which is something people in the democratic party keep missing, the electorate for the democratic primary and the general election are 2 different groups. The strategy for winning a primary and winning a general isn't the same and the voters you have to appeal to are different. Most people voting in the primary will support the candidate under the banner they voted (which is stupid imo) but that's not how it works in the primary. They vote for who they feel is the "best" to win. People have this idea that Trump is the biggest threat ever and must be stopped or all will be lost and they buy into this narrative that Biden beats Trump and will beat Trump and that americans will never go for socialism. Let me point something out for those that don't study history, the last time we had a social democrat (that's what Bernie is btw) in power, he had 4 terms in office and died there.

I've watched a lot of independent journalism and listened to people on the ground and you know what I hear the most? "If Bernie is the nominee I'd support him, but I doubt they'll let him get it and in that case I wont vote." The point is now gone where this can be the case so we're at the "wont vote" part. On top of that the democratic primary isn't very democratic. The people have a right to decide who should be their representative, their leader and the leader of their country, so why do closed primaries exist? Why do I have to be registered as a Dem to vote in my own primary to decide who would be the leader of my country? WHy do I have to jump through so many hoops to vote? Why do you keep shutting down polling places the day of elections?

I'm just gonna say it. There was clear blatant voter fraud and voter suppression throughout the entire primary and if you think the guy who never spent a cent or even any time in any of those super tuesday states somehow won them I have a bridge to sell you. My point is very simple, using the primary as a yard stick isn't a good idea and it doesn't represent the electorate. The Most popular politician in all of America with the largest grass roots organizing losing in states where he's been having people go around and text etc like mad, losing to the guy that was hiding himself away so that people don't realize his cognitive decline doesn't add up. But its not my problem anymore, I don't like my representative so I'm not voting for her, I don't like Biden or Trump and I don't trust Howie Hawkins and I hope he's not the green candidate or else I really will be sitting home in november.



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