Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Report- MS working on 2 next-gen Scarlett family consoles for release Holiday 2020, handheld gaming peripherals with Razer

ironmanDX said:
DonFerrari said:

As explained on a very near post. Sony will have higher sales projection and buying higher batch, so they may have lower cost (same on doing better HW engineering and achieving lower cost solution for similar spec).

And the difference is that MS having 2 consoles one will already compete with the other. We already seem when company have 2 HW that will play the same game which sells more (Arcade X360 without HDD sold more than elite, X1 sold probably 2-4x better than X1X, PS4 sold 3x more than PS4Pro). Does that answer your question?

Not really. It just tells me that you believe that Sony engineering will be superior based on assumptions? The navi rumour? I'm not sure.

I doubt at launch, the batch differences will be that much. X1 and PS4 launch numbers are incredibly close. I expect that the same will happen next launch. They'll both sell out of their respective "batches" launch window. Even the X1 managed to sell out in most markets in spite of the massive backlash.

I feel like the question still stands. Both companies are spending big in R&D I'd imagine and I don't understand why a Sony dollar would translate into a better machine than a MS one. Of course this question is pretty much unanswerable at the moment though.

For 3 gens we have had Sony's engineer being able to give better bang for buck against MS and winning the sales race. And I see little indication to have it change. PS4 is smaller than X1, costed less to manufacture and still outperformed it. What credentials would you have to see MS making X2 more powerful for lesser cost than PS5?

Who are talking about launch? Guess you are doing supositions from low information. They are likely to make more than a year contract with volumes defined (reason Switch took so long to solve their supply problem) and with silicon products being in high demand yet then it is much better to secure your production. So PS5 will have higher requests than X2 unless MS decides on blind gamble and risk of consoles on shelves... like X1 that over 6 months after launch still had day one edition available.

I gave you the answer, and you can look at historic to get it. Don't forget Sony is stronger at HW+Game Dev and MS at OS.



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Pemalite said:
Trumpstyle said:

Now with 2 leaks on Microsoft next-gen strategy and assuming Sony does a 399$ console, we now know pretty much the specs in these consoles as desktop zen2 and Navi has been leaked. Based on the leaks and a little speculation the specs we got is looking like this:

We really don't though.

Trumpstyle said:

Xbox Two (Lockhart) 300$
CPU: 6 Core, 12-thread zen2, clocked at 2,4Ghz
Gpu: Navi with 32CU, 12 GB ram Gddr6, 288 GB/s bandwidth, 192-bit bus, Amd radeon 590 performance
Storage: 1TB mechanical drive with 64GB SSD storage

PS5 400$
CPU: 8 core, 16-thread zen2, clocked at 2,6Ghz
GPU: Navi with 48CU, 16 GB ram Gddr6, 448 GB/s bandwidth, 256-bit bus, Geforce 1080/vega64 performance
Storage: 1TB mechanical drive with 128GB SSD storage

Xbox Two+ (Anaconda) 500$
CPU: 8 core, 16-thread zen2, clocked at 3Ghz
GPU: Navi with 56CU, 24 GB ram Gddr6, 672 GB/s bandwidth, 384-bit bus, Geforce 2080 performance
Storage: 1TB mechanical drive with 128GB SSD storage

I am expecting single CCX on the CPU side for all devices. It offers the best price/performance... And allows for more of the transistor budget to be sunk into the GPU side of the equation.

Navi with 56CU's to be equivalent than a Geforce 2080 is a bit of a claim, Vega 64 has 64 CU's, which is 14% more... Yet ends up being 40-60% slower than the 2080, I highly doubt AMD has made such significant strides in boosting Graphics Core Next efficiency. Grains of salt shall be had.
Granted at 7nm, they should be able to bolster clockrates, but... Still a big gap to close.

Trumpstyle said:

Will have Vapor chamber cooling for extra high clocks :) and be quiet as a stone.

Vapor chamber doesn't guarantee high clock and silent operation. - You still need a fan.
It does allow for more efficient movement of heat however.

 





A single CCX means 4 core, 8 threads, it's just too little performance and die space saving is maybe 30-40mm2. It's just no point to go so cheap on the CPU. I expect 2 CCX with maybe 2 cores deactive for better yields, but I'm betting 8 cores for Sony as they need it for easy backwards compatibility.

About the Navi gpu and CU improvements, they are based on the latest rumor/leaks. It comes from a chinese dude that leaked the radeon 590 first, adoredtv leaked some navi gpus and wccftech was first to mention navi 12 with 40 CU that has vega 56 performance. It seems Navi will bring decent performance improvement per CU. My CU estimates are not random but based on leaks/rumors (Lockhart = cut-down navi12, PS5 = cut-down Navi10, Anaconda = customized gpu with extra CUs).

It's very easy to make big improvement to GPU cores, take a look at Mali-g72 and Mali-g76 they manage to double the gpu performance per core.

Last edited by Trumpstyle - on 20 December 2018

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DonFerrari said:
Nate4Drake said:

Exactly.  All HW will use the same technology, "very similar chips", just more processing power...or less.  Scalability will do the right job for every SKU.

The ones that can't scale to have a good game on the basis and pristine and pretty on the most powerful would probably devs that wouldn't make the best game even if there were a single hw to dev.

I couldn't say it better :)        

 



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

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Trumpstyle said:

A single CCX means 4 core, 8 threads, it's just too little performance and die space saving is maybe 30-40mm2.

Well. No it doesn't.
A single CCX is 44mm2. - That doesn't include other logic, additional caches, memory controllers and so on.

AMD's 8-core Jaguar by comparison is 24.8mm2.

Zen 2 may also increase CCX core counts to 6 or 8.

And as someone who has a Ryzen 2700u Notebook... A quad core Ryzen is actually pretty capable anyway, certainly beats the crap out of an 8-core Jaguar.
I standby the single CCX comment, because it makes the best price/performance sense... These are consoles remember, not high-end PC's, so we need to keep expectations in check.

At the end of the day... Every mm2 that is dedicated to the CPU, is mm2 that is not dedicated to the GPU. - The component that draws all the pretty pictures, ends up being used for advertising, trailers and showing off a platform.

Trumpstyle said:

It's just no point to go so cheap on the CPU. I expect 2 CCX with maybe 2 cores deactive for better yields, but I'm betting 8 cores for Sony as they need it for easy backwards compatibility.

You don't need 8 cores for backwards compatibility. - I suggest you read up on how threading and scheduling works.

Trumpstyle said:


About the Navi gpu and CU improvements, they are based on the latest rumor/leaks. It comes from a chinese dude that leaked the radeon 590 first, adoredtv leaked some navi gpus and wccftech was first to mention navi 12 with 40 CU that has vega 56 performance. It seems Navi will bring decent performance improvement per CU. My CU estimates are not random but based on leaks/rumors (Lockhart = cut-down navi12, PS5 = cut-down Navi10, Anaconda = customized gpu with extra CUs).

The thing with rumors... Is that they are just that. Rumors. They can be discarded or ignored until something solid comes along.

And just because someone is right about a single prediction, doesn't mean all their prior predictions or future predictions will be correct either... You need to judge each and every claim on an individual basis.

Navi with 40CU being equivalent to Vega 56 is nothing special at the end of the day. - Maybe the performance boost is because AMD finally got Draw Stream Rasterization to actually work? And possibly made Primitive Shaders a proper thing that isn't simply relegated to an API? Either-way, it's AMD playing catch up as nVidia has them soundly beat.

Trumpstyle said:

It's very easy to make big improvement to GPU cores, take a look at Mali-g72 and Mali-g76 they manage to double the gpu performance per core.

Just don't go expecting a multiples increase in performance when AMD isn't building a new chip from the ground up.
People hyped Polaris... People hyped Vega... People hyped Fury... And at the end of the day, they were all let downs in retrospect.

As for ARM's G76 and G72... There is reason why they managed to achieve what they did. - They made some extremely fundamental changes to the uArch. - Each GPU core is twice as wide so it can do twice as much work. - Graphics are a highly parallel task... So you can either increase your GPU cores width to do twice the work, or double the amount of cores. - End of the day, you potentially achieve the same outcome. (G72 was a 4-wide SIMD, G76 is 8-wide.)

However... AMD's GPU's are already wide cores, rather than ARM's typically narrow cores, so it doesn't make sense for AMD to take a similar approach anyway.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 20 December 2018

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DonFerrari said:
shikamaru317 said:

Actually, Lockhart shouldn't hold back Anaconda at all. The rumored specs for Lockhart are high enough that the only downgrade should be resolution, Lockhart should play next gen games at 1080p that Anaconda plays at 4K with no other graphical downgrades. It therefore shouldn't hold back graphics for exclusives or multiplats next-gen. 

The lower denominator (even more when the best selling one) will always hold up some. If 90% of the market chose the lower one, what incentives are for most devs on putting all effort on the higher option?

It's not out of the blue that several PC gamers blame consoles for holding they back. Consoles sell much more SW so they are taken more in account.

Run games with a similar mechanism as PC. The only difference would be the user doesn't get to decide on the game options. 



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    Anyone else think they are spreading these rumours and will actually launch holiday 2019?



    Kerotan said:
    Anyone else think they are spreading these rumours and will actually launch holiday 2019?

    Never say never, but 2019 seems really too early, mostly for MS who released X1X one year ago.

     PS5 ? well, we still don't know anything official about the specs, and not a single pic of something in development came out, apart from Exclusive cross-gen games, but nothing is official; everything would suggest a 2020 release for both PS5 and Next Xbox.   It's not easy to keep everything under cover and total secret within only 9-10 months from release.



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