Forums - Politics Discussion - Supreme Court Upholds Trump's Travel Ban on Mostly Muslim Countries

the-pi-guy said:
Aeolus451 said:

No, it's not.That's what political lefties actually say the want.

There are at least tens of millions of lefties, you can find literally any political position you want.  

Open borders are a small government position.  

Aeolus451 said:

That's not including expenses from the paris accord if we stayed in.

Didn't cost anything.  Countries decided for themselves what they wanted to do.  

The only thing that the Paris Accord required was to make goals.  That's it.  No spending requirements, no punishments for not making those goals.  You can read it yourself.  

Aeolus451 said:

What right leaning politicians, media or celebrities are calling for way way worse than what Maxine Waters is pushing for? I didn't realize that the left consider debates acts of violence.

How about when Trump said "to knock the crap out of him."

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/128896/beat-protester-trumps-rally-hell-cover-legal-fees

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/jun/26/have-us-rep-maxine-waters-and-president-donald-tru/

Mr Puggsly said:

Taking care and dealing with illegal immigrants, also incredibly costly. In comparison the wall looks like a drop in the bucket. Even the low estimate are significantly more than that wall.

 

There are all kinds of costs.  Including stealing land from Americans in order to build the wall.  

Mr Puggsly said:

Democrats keep pushing for expenses and expect all of us to cover it. People have the illusion it will just be felt by the rich and that's not reality. Republicans entertain the idea of cutting the budget, but the democrats treat any potential cut as the end of the world. Frankly, we couldn't get taxed enough to cover how out of control spending has gotten. The $20+ trillion debt didn't happen from tax cuts, its the increased spending. The only options are reduce spending OR slow spending so the economy can catch up.

Tax cuts and increased spending are two sides of the same problem.  It's from both.  

Our current tax rate is far below what it was a few decades ago.  

Mr Puggsly said:

Republicans/right leaning people getting chastised in public primarily for having opposing views has become common place. Its also become common for right leaning speakers to have their events shut down due to the intolerant left. Even personally I've had left leaning friends/acquaintances became hostile simply because my views differ.

 

Democrats are right leaning. 

Republicans are practically off the right side of the map.  

You're saying that as if Democrats don't get chastised.  They get called baby killers, libtards, and much more.

I'm not saying Democrats are better.  I'm just annoyed how conservatives act like they are good and holy, while Liberals are all monsters.  

Mr Puggsly said: 

Its not just about refusing service, dems are using it at as means of grandstanding. It accomplished nothing, the manager had to step down and it created sympathy for people on the right.  For comparison sake, the baker who refused to provide a custom cake for a gay couple didn't refuse service entirely. They were allowed to buy other things, just not a custom gay wedding cake. That baker is considered a bigot but in comparison was actually classy.

I've heard a lot of different stories about it.  Supposedly, one of the trials was on the side of the buyers on the basis that they weren't allowed to get any kind of cake.  

Open borders falls under not protecting citizens. Which should be a primary focus. Its a left wing issue because its some sort of social justice. Some perceive it as pandering to certain groups.

The general consensus is Obama's plan would require increased spending, its just a debate on how much. I get the impression the US either had to stick with that deal Obama proposed or just leave. Otherwise Trump could just make a new proposal, offer very little or virtually nothing like other countries, and get less media flack.

Maxine Waters requested people to harass republicans, now she's experiencing it herself. My advice is just try to be civil because wackos are on both sides.

I'm aware some land would fall under eminent domain. Sucks, but this is a security issue. It wouldn't be the worst use of this law.

For some reason wanting free stuff is more popular than higher taxes. But increased spending in general is more popular among the left.

The democratic party in particular is not right leaning, their party is getting highjack by socialists, SJWs, and often take umbrage with the constitution. People who vote democrat might have right wing views, but the party is becoming strongly against them.

You're taking my comment out of context. I'm saying democrats don't get chastised for increased spending even though high taxes is not popular.

If a baker didn't want to serve someone because his gaydar went off, that would obviously be wrong. That would be difficult to defend even if you aren't a fan of gay marriage.



Recently Completed
Gears 5
for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Around the Network
Hyper_Upgrade said:

Is this any different then what was said during Obama term.  At that time they tried to paint him as a socialist.  Then when that went nowhere they tried to make it appear he was not born in the US and paint him as a muslim.  Do not forget that Trump was one of the leading people behind trying to make this case.  Even more funny, he said he had evidence but as always with Trump producing that evidence is always hard for him to do.  Trump is being treated no better or worst than any other president who make way to many comments without going through the political filters.  He gives ammunition to his enemies because he doesn't have a filter or know when to shut up.  People who love him believe this is some grand strategy and people who hate him believe he is just stupid.  Only time will tell which group is right.

Yes, there is a clear difference. Obviously, part of politics is to slander your opponent since in many cases in today's politics people vote against a party, not for one. But let's go deep into what these attacks mean.

Being painted as a socialist is considered a taboo to republicans, but why? Because for republicans it is messaging a sign of naivety or a lack of understanding of reality. Another way to look at it is they were calling Obama stupid. To paraphrase a very in-depth and complicated argument, 'He ignores historical precedence or knowledge of life and economics.' 

As for the Muslim attempt, I do not condone this attack especially since it was slander, and I believe that was a poor attack that did not work preciously for that reason. The messaging that was likely behind it was to question his legitimacy as an American who could govern the country he ran. Especially since some of his policies were perceived by republicans to demonize or trivialize American heritage. As always, the key word is "perceive." 

...

So, how is the attacks on Trump different ? (Which is a fair question). Trump is considered stupid which is nothing new in the political realm. What is different is that these recent attacks are not merely about his intelligence or his moral character. Rather, the messaging is that Trump and his supporters are trying to emulate the worst dictators of human history. Only a fascist would separate kids. Only a Nazi would try to block people from coming to this country on a basis of race. Trump is racist, sexist, and every other -ist and -ic out there. It's not even the idea that he is evil, it is that he is the definition of evil. Therefore, we as citizens have a moral obligation to stop him at any cost because he is the greatest threat of our time. This is not a fringe statement. Members of the press, Late night shows, cable (political) news, members of the house and senate, celebrities, all have major influence of traditional media.

Now, I do remember times where Obama was compared to Hitler, and I also remember the reaction. No one took them seriously. It was some idiot on the fringe who grossly simplified the President. Just as those attacks should be considered. Politics is an ugly place and I do not expect civility in that realm. However, to use the dictators of the 20th century as part of analogy better be damn well thought out, because as Jordan Peterson would say, it is sacrilegious to use the most tragic events in Human history for expedient gain. 

The numbers also speak for coverage of Trump compared to past presidents. 

...

No, Obama was painted as a socialist because they thought this was the buzz word at the time Americans would get behind.  Obama was painted as a muslim because those same political opponents wanted to paint him as favoring muslim values which would of course put off the Christian base.  As with anything political, people will use whatever they feel is a message that will get enough voters to side with them. 

Yes, Trump is being considered in the same light as current and pass dictators but then again, he helped make that message.  Just like Obama father was Kenyan, it gave his political opponents an avenue to paint him as muslim, Trump praising every dictator from Kim to Putin, gave his political opponents a means to paint him in the same light.    Obama was painted just as evil as Trump from the right leaning sites, Trust me I read them all.  Probably the only reason you believe you see more sites against Trump is because he basically rub a lot of people the wrong way.  Unlike other presidents, he loves to open his mouth about every topic that comes to his mind.  Just like social media, when you talk to much without thinking should I be saying this as president, you will get a lot of flak.  The difference with Trump compared to other presidents is that other presidents treated their position first and then their social status second.  Trump still thinks he is that celebrity TV star first and President second.  As long as Trump continue to give fuel to his political opponents to tie his actions to past and present dictators, they will continue to try to push that narative.



I think Donald did the right thing. I wish the UK would do the same with Pakistani, Bangladeshi & Somali immigrants, a total ban. It's all one way traffic, Islamic migrants pouring into Western countries, totally at odds with Western Culture and just taking and pushing their own views. There's absolutely no benefit whatsoever to migrants coming in from these countries. By all means, try and make their nations better and I'm all for aid, but stop bringing them here.



KingCherry said:
I think Donald did the right thing. I wish the UK would do the same with Pakistani, Bangladeshi & Somali immigrants, a total ban. It's all one way traffic, Islamic migrants pouring into Western countries, totally at odds with Western Culture and just taking and pushing their own views. There's absolutely no benefit whatsoever to migrants coming in from these countries. By all means, try and make their nations better and I'm all for aid, but stop bringing them here.

You ever see that interview CNN did with someone from I believe Iran after the bombing we did in response to the chemical weapons usage.

CNN veered off topic and tried to get the guys opinion on Trump and his immigrant blockage, talks, ect. The went on to talk about how no one wants to be an immigrant. They don't want to leave their home country. He was praising Trump and hoping what he was doing was going to make changes and let them stay where they grew up in their home country. Something to that extent at least. CNN was not happy you could tell.

Anyways, the point is that I always find it amusing how countries get demonized for not allowing completely open borders, and every immigrant ever to come into their country. It's always, they are fleeing something horrible we need to shelter them, or they looking for a better life, ect. Activists and protesters constantly attacking the country that should be accepting them, yet what is said or done about the country they are fleeing from.

Look at Mexico. Is there ever any talk about improving our neighbor so that their citizens are all trying to come to America. People from South America travel all the way through the entirety of Mexico to reach America. Wouldn't it be great if they could stop in Mexico to start living the dream they dream of. But no, they have just accepted that MExico is a horrible drug cartel infested/ruled country and instead of trying to protest/activist about that they put all the blame on the U.S. for not accepting EVERYONE under the sun.

Same for in Europe. Instead of trying to do something about the countries the migrants are fleeing from, they attack those who say we can't accept everyone. It just feels like we are putting band-aids on problems instead of addressing the actual problems, yet the press and the crowd is only screaming for more band-aids.

Oh and God forbid we go and try and help those countries. Then its the US and its allies invading another country or trying to world police again. Now I'm not going to argue that we do a good job of world policing, cause typically we don't. Seems like our idea of world policing is bomb the shit out of it, and then arm a group of rebels with advanced weaponry to fight back, whom later end up becoming the next terrorist group that terrorizes the region. But hey, it makes our military contracts happy cause we sold a bunch of weapons, right? Fucking idiots. Feels like very bad group in these regions was at some point supported by us.

Last edited by irstupid - on 29 June 2018

Machiavellian said:

No, Obama was painted as a socialist because they thought this was the buzz word at the time Americans would get behind.  Obama was painted as a muslim because those same political opponents wanted to paint him as favoring muslim values which would of course put off the Christian base.  As with anything political, people will use whatever they feel is a message that will get enough voters to side with them. 

Yes, Trump is being considered in the same light as current and pass dictators but then again, he helped make that message.  Just like Obama father was Kenyan, it gave his political opponents an avenue to paint him as muslim, Trump praising every dictator from Kim to Putin, gave his political opponents a means to paint him in the same light.    Obama was painted just as evil as Trump from the right leaning sites, Trust me I read them all.  Probably the only reason you believe you see more sites against Trump is because he basically rub a lot of people the wrong way.  Unlike other presidents, he loves to open his mouth about every topic that comes to his mind.  Just like social media, when you talk to much without thinking should I be saying this as president, you will get a lot of flak.  The difference with Trump compared to other presidents is that other presidents treated their position first and then their social status second.  Trump still thinks he is that celebrity TV star first and President second.  As long as Trump continue to give fuel to his political opponents to tie his actions to past and present dictators, they will continue to try to push that narative.


Let's just say this is true for the sake of argument that Obama and Trump were treated equally poor. My question is, what is the leftist equivalent of a Nazi or fascist?

Communist? No. Many of Karl Marx theories are in practice now in universities. Especially about group identities superseding individual personalities. Heck, Communist isn't even a word to feared anymore like it was in the 50s. It is an "egalitarian" idea that simply failed to be implemented correctly based on outside constraints. There are no racial undertones, and its victims were not specifically targeted for mass murder by race (At least in theory, but obviously not in practice). Communism simply killed millions equally based on equality. 

So, can willful ignorance or blinding naivety ever be painted in the same brush as pre-mediated genocide and self-superiority? What then, is the equivalent evil of a Nazi or a fascist that mainstream republicans media called Obama and his supporters? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Around the Network
Hyper_Upgrade said:
Machiavellian said:

No, Obama was painted as a socialist because they thought this was the buzz word at the time Americans would get behind.  Obama was painted as a muslim because those same political opponents wanted to paint him as favoring muslim values which would of course put off the Christian base.  As with anything political, people will use whatever they feel is a message that will get enough voters to side with them. 

Yes, Trump is being considered in the same light as current and pass dictators but then again, he helped make that message.  Just like Obama father was Kenyan, it gave his political opponents an avenue to paint him as muslim, Trump praising every dictator from Kim to Putin, gave his political opponents a means to paint him in the same light.    Obama was painted just as evil as Trump from the right leaning sites, Trust me I read them all.  Probably the only reason you believe you see more sites against Trump is because he basically rub a lot of people the wrong way.  Unlike other presidents, he loves to open his mouth about every topic that comes to his mind.  Just like social media, when you talk to much without thinking should I be saying this as president, you will get a lot of flak.  The difference with Trump compared to other presidents is that other presidents treated their position first and then their social status second.  Trump still thinks he is that celebrity TV star first and President second.  As long as Trump continue to give fuel to his political opponents to tie his actions to past and present dictators, they will continue to try to push that narative.


Let's just say this is true for the sake of argument that Obama and Trump were treated equally poor. My question is, what is the leftist equivalent of a Nazi or fascist?

Communist? No. Many of Karl Marx theories are in practice now in universities. Especially about group identities superseding individual personalities. Heck, Communist isn't even a word to feared anymore like it was in the 50s. It is an "egalitarian" idea that simply failed to be implemented correctly based on outside constraints. There are no racial undertones, and its victims were not specifically targeted for mass murder by race (At least in theory, but obviously not in practice). Communism simply killed millions equally based on equality. 

So, can willful ignorance or blinding naivety ever be painted in the same brush as pre-mediated genocide and self-superiority? What then, is the equivalent evil of a Nazi or a fascist that mainstream republicans media called Obama and his supporters? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no clue what a lefty or righty or any of that stuff means.  What I do know is that labels are used to group people together so that you can then belittle that group from each side.  As I have noticed, each sides looks for something they can make stick and then lead with that.  Conservatives love the socialist name calling.  I also noticed that they also love painting the left as violent etc.  The liberals love painting Trump as a dictator because of his love of them. 

Here is a site that sums up how the conservative media at the time welcome Obama.  You will find out that it was just as virulent as it is for Trump.  The only difference is Trump loves attention so it seems to me he if a week goes by without anyone saying anything about him, he will say something stupid or do something stupid to stay in the news.



Machiavellian said:

I have no clue what a lefty or righty or any of that stuff means.  What I do know is that labels are used to group people together so that you can then belittle that group from each side.  As I have noticed, each sides looks for something they can make stick and then lead with that.  Conservatives love the socialist name calling.  I also noticed that they also love painting the left as violent etc.  The liberals love painting Trump as a dictator because of his love of them. 

Here is a site that sums up how the conservative media at the time welcome Obama.  You will find out that it was just as virulent as it is for Trump.  The only difference is Trump loves attention so it seems to me he if a week goes by without anyone saying anything about him, he will say something stupid or do something stupid to stay in the news.

I am not arguing against that. Nor am I saying that one side is better than the other with their normal demonizing campaigns. 

There is, however, very good reasons that we do not casually throw out words like Nazi or fascist. It's not some caricature. People were systemically gassed and trampled in tightly packed and dark rooms. They were then cremated and their ashes were used as filler for highways. Those are the lucky one who were not experimented on or forced in labor camps where they would die from starvation and exhaustion. It's not just that these regimes were widely delusional, but they carried it out with such dedication and zeal that it was beyond understandable. People had only one right and that was "don't piss off the state or you are next."  

So yeah, let Trump be called the usual boogeyman insults. I'm fine with that, it's politics. He, however, is being lambasted for isolationism, not world conquest. Hastily reducing government for "fat cats", not creating a full authoritarian state. Walling people out, not in. Attacking Syria for using gas attacks, not gassing his own people. People can say he is hopelessly incompetent and systematically trying to destroy democracy (cognitive dissonance), but for our country's sake, don't let people use Nazi. Don't let them use fascist. 

It's not a game. It's not even politics. It's fundamentally and unequivocally wrong. 

 



If only Europe had a similar ban, thousands of lives would be saved and rape wouldn’t be at epidemic levels.

Thank you President Trump!



Hyper_Upgrade said:
Machiavellian said:

I have no clue what a lefty or righty or any of that stuff means.  What I do know is that labels are used to group people together so that you can then belittle that group from each side.  As I have noticed, each sides looks for something they can make stick and then lead with that.  Conservatives love the socialist name calling.  I also noticed that they also love painting the left as violent etc.  The liberals love painting Trump as a dictator because of his love of them. 

Here is a site that sums up how the conservative media at the time welcome Obama.  You will find out that it was just as virulent as it is for Trump.  The only difference is Trump loves attention so it seems to me he if a week goes by without anyone saying anything about him, he will say something stupid or do something stupid to stay in the news.

I am not arguing against that. Nor am I saying that one side is better than the other with their normal demonizing campaigns. 

There is, however, very good reasons that we do not casually throw out words like Nazi or fascist. It's not some caricature. People were systemically gassed and trampled in tightly packed and dark rooms. They were then cremated and their ashes were used as filler for highways. Those are the lucky one who were not experimented on or forced in labor camps where they would die from starvation and exhaustion. It's not just that these regimes were widely delusional, but they carried it out with such dedication and zeal that it was beyond understandable. People had only one right and that was "don't piss off the state or you are next."  

So yeah, let Trump be called the usual boogeyman insults. I'm fine with that, it's politics. He, however, is being lambasted for isolationism, not world conquest. Hastily reducing government for "fat cats", not creating a full authoritarian state. Walling people out, not in. Attacking Syria for using gas attacks, not gassing his own people. People can say he is hopelessly incompetent and systematically trying to destroy democracy (cognitive dissonance), but for our country's sake, don't let people use Nazi. Don't let them use fascist. 

It's not a game. It's not even politics. It's fundamentally and unequivocally wrong. 

 

Did you not read the link I gave.  It showed that Obama was called Socialist, fascist, Nazi and a crap load of other stuff from the conservative media.  Your stance appears that this is only applied to Trump as if he is special in some way to negative press or even how he is typed or viewed.  The thing is that he isn't special.  Other presidents during their term was typed just as much depending on how threaten each side felt.  During Obama term, conservatives flipped a switched and called him everything they could.  Their whole agenda was to make sure they demonize him in such a way that he would fail a second term.  When that did not work, they worked hard to make sure that Hillary was next since she was the front runner.

It's how the game is played and if you do not like it then you probably should not get involved.  Politics has always been this way.  A lot of people were saying this before Trump decided he wanted to be President.  Trump never had any political experience and he felt that his little dirty business experience was enough to prepare him for the full onslaught.  The thing is, you seem to act as if Trump is some innocent bystander but he plays just as dirty as any other politician.  You only have to look at any of his attacks whether promoted or just off the cuff.  He has lied and demeaned any and everyone he felt is getting in his way.  Trump has shone he will use what every words, that will make his political base happy.  

I do not see Trump as any different from any other politician, if anything he just seems ill prepared, sloppy and lazy.  He doesn't appear he really want to do the job, he just want everyone else to bow to his whims.  Being president is a tough job, we will see how well he mature during his first term.



Machiavellian said:

Did you not read the link I gave.  It showed that Obama was called Socialist, fascist, Nazi and a crap load of other stuff from the conservative media.  Your stance appears that this is only applied to Trump as if he is special in some way to negative press or even how he is typed or viewed.  The thing is that he isn't special.  Other presidents during their term was typed just as much depending on how threaten each side felt.  During Obama term, conservatives flipped a switched and called him everything they could.  Their whole agenda was to make sure they demonize him in such a way that he would fail a second term.  When that did not work, they worked hard to make sure that Hillary was next since she was the front runner.

It's how the game is played and if you do not like it then you probably should not get involved.  Politics has always been this way.  A lot of people were saying this before Trump decided he wanted to be President.  Trump never had any political experience and he felt that his little dirty business experience was enough to prepare him for the full onslaught.  The thing is, you seem to act as if Trump is some innocent bystander but he plays just as dirty as any other politician.  You only have to look at any of his attacks whether promoted or just off the cuff.  He has lied and demeaned any and everyone he felt is getting in his way.  Trump has shone he will use what every words, that will make his political base happy.  

I do not see Trump as any different from any other politician, if anything he just seems ill prepared, sloppy and lazy.  He doesn't appear he really want to do the job, he just want everyone else to bow to his whims.  Being president is a tough job, we will see how well he mature during his first term.

There is not a link to click on. 

And at what point have I said Trump is innocent? My only argument is that we don't blanketly refer to politicians as Nazis or fascists. It's not a crazy idea. I'm not blind, and I've said earlier in the forum about the tactics Trump plays. He is fair game and it is up for him to defend himself, such is politics. 

My point stands that calling your opponent a Nazi is not something that is acceptable because no one benefits from it, and its risks alienating people who are not radical.