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spemanig said:
NoCtiS_NoX said:

Yeah, I haven't played any dating sim but just because it's applying the same concept of time management and having similarities from dating sim doesn't make it a dating sim. It's one of the aspect yes but I wholeheartedly disagree that Persona is a dating sim especially P5. I like the social aspect so don't get me wrong. I just disagree on how you portrayed Persona especially 5 because it's very different.

Out of curiosity, did you already played Persona 5  though?  Just like Super Boom  and me said it's all a choice. I mean Persona  is litterally 3/4 JRPG and 1/4 dating sim. Persona 5 didn't focus on Social links or confidant. It felt like an extra. Yes, having to socialize with the confidant will make it easier for the main character but it doesn't force you to do it because you have a choice to do a different path. The romance itself is not even significant to the point that just get what you need and you are good to go unlike with the previous that it feels it's force on you. Just do things I have said above you can create a persona that will make you invincible.

I haven't finished it, but I've gotten far enough to know that it is. It's not a mechanically complex or nuanced genre.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. It doesn't just have similarities. It is functionally, mechanically identical to a dating sim because that's what it is. That's like saying "just because you point and shoot at enemies in the first person doesn't mean it's a first person shooter." That's literally the argument you're making. SMT is a monster collecting JRPG where you don't ever have to catch a single demon. Sure, you're making the game needlessly difficult by not playing it the way you're mechanically and narratively incentivized to, but I mean you can grind so it's just an option so I guess it's not a monster collecting JRPG series after all.

Like I said, it's been a choice in every Persona and every dating sim. These mechanics don't exist for no reason, and they don't have an insignificant place in the game. Just because you can choose not to do them doesn't mean that you aren't meant to. The game becoming more difficult because you don't utilize a mechanic means that the game is literally punishing you for playing incorrectly. And like I said - you don't have to ever date anyone in any dating sim, ever. It's always a choice. P5 placing less emphasis on romance than other Personas or even other dating sims doesn't mean that there's no emphasis being placed on it, because there is.

EDIT: And again, I don't mean that as an insult. I literally think Persona 3-5 are the Hunter x Hunters/My Hero Academias of dating sims. It's not a bad thing. But that's what they are. It just feels like people are ashamed to like a dating sim because there's a stigma. A stigma Persona drop-kicks in the ass, so I don't see the big deal.

If I understand you correctly, are you saying that you think Persona 5's main category (if you could only list one) is "Dating Sim" and not "Role Playing Game"?
I read some of your posts on this, but I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion if so?

You can play various sports Yakuza, but I wouldn't call it a sports game.
Dating sims are centered around developing relationships with others. And the endings are generally the culmination of your interactions with them. That's the goal of the game.
Persona 5 has a dating sim mechanic, but it's neither the focus of the gameplay nor the story.



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Hope it stays exclusive to Switch.




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Slade6alpha said:
Hope it stays exclusive to Switch.

Why? is not exactly the kind of game that will make switch sell milions, I'm just glad is coming to switch but it would be great if was multiplatform as long as Atlus releases Persona 5 on Switch too, that would be so cool.



Hiku said:
spemanig said:

I haven't finished it, but I've gotten far enough to know that it is. It's not a mechanically complex or nuanced genre.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. It doesn't just have similarities. It is functionally, mechanically identical to a dating sim because that's what it is. That's like saying "just because you point and shoot at enemies in the first person doesn't mean it's a first person shooter." That's literally the argument you're making. SMT is a monster collecting JRPG where you don't ever have to catch a single demon. Sure, you're making the game needlessly difficult by not playing it the way you're mechanically and narratively incentivized to, but I mean you can grind so it's just an option so I guess it's not a monster collecting JRPG series after all.

Like I said, it's been a choice in every Persona and every dating sim. These mechanics don't exist for no reason, and they don't have an insignificant place in the game. Just because you can choose not to do them doesn't mean that you aren't meant to. The game becoming more difficult because you don't utilize a mechanic means that the game is literally punishing you for playing incorrectly. And like I said - you don't have to ever date anyone in any dating sim, ever. It's always a choice. P5 placing less emphasis on romance than other Personas or even other dating sims doesn't mean that there's no emphasis being placed on it, because there is.

EDIT: And again, I don't mean that as an insult. I literally think Persona 3-5 are the Hunter x Hunters/My Hero Academias of dating sims. It's not a bad thing. But that's what they are. It just feels like people are ashamed to like a dating sim because there's a stigma. A stigma Persona drop-kicks in the ass, so I don't see the big deal.

If I understand you correctly, are you saying that you think Persona 5's main category (if you could only list one) is "Dating Sim" and not "Role Playing Game"?
I read some of your posts on this, but I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion if so?

You can play various sports Yakuza, but I wouldn't call it a sports game.
Dating sims are centered around developing relationships with others. And the endings are generally the culmination of your interactions with them. That's the goal of the game.
Persona 5 has a dating sim mechanic, but it's neither the focus of the gameplay nor the story.

No - It's equal parts both. Dating sims are visual novels that are mechanically centered around gaining skill levels in order to unlock social interactions with people. That's half of what Persona 3-5 are, and these mechanics are intimately tied to the RPG mechanics. Persona uses this as a means to explore psychological subjects, but it does do this. It's entirely fair to say that the Personas are not entirely or exclusively dating sims, but you cannot compare it to the minigames in Yakuza or GTA where those mechanics are isolated from the rest of the game in an inconsequential way. You are tied to a clock, and boosting skills and making social interactions costs time slots and these skills act as currency for social interactions and further skill development. Those are dating sim mechanics - there is no other genre where mechanics interact in this way for this purpose, not under the visual novel frame.

You and everyone else are focusing on the literal moment where the relationship happens when I am not, and that has never been what makes a dating sim a dating sim. I am talking about mechanics. Mechanically, it is a dating sim. Maybe it's the name of the genre you don't like, maybe it's a misnomer, but it is a part of that genre.

EDIT: We're getting off topic though. PM for further inquiries.



Well, this is new.

Read.

NoCtiS_NoX said:
spemanig said:

I haven't finished it, but I've gotten far enough to know that it is. It's not a mechanically complex or nuanced genre.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. It doesn't just have similarities. It is functionally, mechanically identical to a dating sim because that's what it is. That's like saying "just because you point and shoot at enemies in the first person doesn't mean it's a first person shooter." That's literally the argument you're making. SMT is a monster collecting JRPG where you don't ever have to catch a single demon. Sure, you're making the game needlessly difficult by not playing it the way you're mechanically and narratively incentivized to, but I mean you can grind so it's just an option so I guess it's not a monster collecting JRPG series after all.

Like I said, it's been a choice in every Persona and every dating sim. These mechanics don't exist for no reason, and they don't have an insignificant place in the game. Just because you can choose not to do them doesn't mean that you aren't meant to. The game becoming more difficult because you don't utilize a mechanic means that the game is literally punishing you for playing incorrectly. And like I said - you don't have to ever date anyone in any dating sim, ever. It's always a choice. P5 placing less emphasis on romance than other Personas or even other dating sims doesn't mean that there's no emphasis being placed on it, because there is.

EDIT: And again, I don't mean that as an insult. I literally think Persona 3-5 are the Hunter x Hunters/My Hero Academias of dating sims. It's not a bad thing. But that's what they are. It just feels like people are ashamed to like a dating sim because there's a stigma. A stigma Persona drop-kicks in the ass, so I don't see the big deal.

Well, I see it as a different thing. See the bold? you just describe what Persona is.  A dungeon crawling/fusion persona/persona collecting JRPG with dating sim features in it. I mean, majority of your time will be spent in conquering Palaces, Castle, Tartarus with the help of your Persona because that is main aspect of the game. That's your goal not dating with the confidants because If you don't go to the Dungeon then it is game over. 

Also, Persona 5 will not punish you if you have the right set of Persona with you so even if you don't interect with some of the confidants you can still easily beat Persona 5. Focus on the skill set and the right persona before you traverse to the palace and you will dominate all of the Shadows in it. For me thats the core mechanics of the game. Capturing and Fusing persona so you can get the skill set that you want. They even have this Treasure monster you can have to provide you more skillset that you can have for your Persona. 
That's why I love the upgrade of the Velvet room for P5. I am not even talking about the weakness of the shadow but how you will utilize the strength of the Shadow as well to your advantage. 

No worries I am not offended but Persona roots is still in collecting Persona and it's JRPG elements. You go to the dungeon, you gain a persona and fuse it to gain a more powerful persona and you level up. It's like you telling me MOBA and Warcract(strategy game) are RPG because you gained experience and level up and you equip weapons and armor.

But one thing I can agree you on is the dating aspect that was integrated to Persona is one of the welcome addition to the game. It made the game more unique and became a separate series to the Main SMT. 

That is literally not even close to being true. Half of your time is spent in the overworld, if not more. It would literally be exausting if you spent most of your time fighting monsters in any RPG, let alone Persona. Most of your playtime is spent managing time. Persona isn't about exploring dungeons, it's about exploring themes.

You're literally forced out of dungeons because of the way resources run out in this game. And I'm not saying P5 isn't defeatable without some confidants, but you do not have freedom of play without them. You yourself said it - the game is more difficult without them. That is a punishment. It's also more limited. You have to play a certain way to win without playing the game the way it's designed to be played, both mechanically and narratively. It's like a nuzlocke run in Pokemon. It's not meant to be played like that. (Also like 1v1/no items/final destination Smash, but I won't get into that)

And again, you're mischaracterizing "dating sim" by putting too much emphasis on the dating aspect. Every time you read a book and gain the intelligence skill and loose time on a limited amount of days and hours, you're playing a dating sim, and to discount the amount of time and mechanical/thematic relevance spent on that is to be extremely disingenuous. Persona, as a narrative franchise, is literally about building bonds and exploring the psychology around that. The mechanics are designed to facilitate that, and half of those mechanics are dating sim mechanics.

EDIT: We're getting off topic though. PM for further inquiries.



Well, this is new.

Read.

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I agree with Spemanig, I love Persona (well, I've beaten 3, 4 and 5, don't know about the first two) games because it blends both an RPG game but with heavy elements of a dating sim game. I'd go as far as say that they're both equally important. It's encouraged to improve your stats, and your stats affect directly in basically... everything. Your relationships matters a lot, so you have to improve your bonds with the people in the world. And it's a huge part of the game, so even if people... couldn't decide to go into these aspects of the game, in my opinion, they're losing what makes Persona a different game. SMT are pretty different in that sense.

EDIT: Well, actually, I'd say it's a "social" sim, that term seems more fitting and probably defines the game better. I think that some people might be afraid of calling Persona games a 50/50 RPG/social sim because it's not... popular. But it is, like it or not.

 



spemanig said:
NoCtiS_NoX said:

Yeah, I haven't played any dating sim but just because it's applying the same concept of time management and having similarities from dating sim doesn't make it a dating sim. It's one of the aspect yes but I wholeheartedly disagree that Persona is a dating sim especially P5. I like the social aspect so don't get me wrong. I just disagree on how you portrayed Persona especially 5 because it's very different.

Out of curiosity, did you already played Persona 5  though?  Just like Super Boom  and me said it's all a choice. I mean Persona  is litterally 3/4 JRPG and 1/4 dating sim. Persona 5 didn't focus on Social links or confidant. It felt like an extra. Yes, having to socialize with the confidant will make it easier for the main character but it doesn't force you to do it because you have a choice to do a different path. The romance itself is not even significant to the point that just get what you need and you are good to go unlike with the previous that it feels it's force on you. Just do things I have said above you can create a persona that will make you invincible.

I haven't finished it, but I've gotten far enough to know that it is. It's not a mechanically complex or nuanced genre.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. It doesn't just have similarities. It is functionally, mechanically identical to a dating sim because that's what it is. That's like saying "just because you point and shoot at enemies in the first person doesn't mean it's a first person shooter." That's literally the argument you're making. SMT is a monster collecting JRPG where you don't ever have to catch a single demon. Sure, you're making the game needlessly difficult by not playing it the way you're mechanically and narratively incentivized to, but I mean you can grind so it's just an option so I guess it's not a monster collecting JRPG series after all.

Like I said, it's been a choice in every Persona and every dating sim. These mechanics don't exist for no reason, and they don't have an insignificant place in the game. Just because you can choose not to do them doesn't mean that you aren't meant to. The game becoming more difficult because you don't utilize a mechanic means that the game is literally punishing you for playing incorrectly. And like I said - you don't have to ever date anyone in any dating sim, ever. It's always a choice. P5 placing less emphasis on romance than other Personas or even other dating sims doesn't mean that there's no emphasis being placed on it, because there is.

EDIT: And again, I don't mean that as an insult. I literally think Persona 3-5 are the Hunter x Hunters/My Hero Academias of dating sims. It's not a bad thing. But that's what they are. It just feels like people are ashamed to like a dating sim because there's a stigma. A stigma Persona drop-kicks in the ass, so I don't see the big deal.

You should really actually play P3 through P5 then.You missed the whole point of the game it seems.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

spemanig said:
Hiku said:

If I understand you correctly, are you saying that you think Persona 5's main category (if you could only list one) is "Dating Sim" and not "Role Playing Game"?
I read some of your posts on this, but I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion if so?

You can play various sports Yakuza, but I wouldn't call it a sports game.
Dating sims are centered around developing relationships with others. And the endings are generally the culmination of your interactions with them. That's the goal of the game.
Persona 5 has a dating sim mechanic, but it's neither the focus of the gameplay nor the story.

No - It's equal parts both. Dating sims are visual novels that are mechanically centered around gaining skill levels in order to unlock social interactions with people. That's half of what Persona 3-5 are, and these mechanics are intimately tied to the RPG mechanics. Persona uses this as a means to explore psychological subjects, but it does do this. It's entirely fair to say that the Personas are not entirely or exclusively dating sims, but you cannot compare it to the minigames in Yakuza or GTA where those mechanics are isolated from the rest of the game in an inconsequential way. You are tied to a clock, and boosting skills and making social interactions costs time slots and these skills act as currency for social interactions and further skill development. Those are dating sim mechanics - there is no other genre where mechanics interact in this way for this purpose, not under the visual novel frame.

You and everyone else are focusing on the literal moment where the relationship happens when I am not, and that has never been what makes a dating sim a dating sim. I am talking about mechanics. Mechanically, it is a dating sim. Maybe it's the name of the genre you don't like, maybe it's a misnomer, but it is a part of that genre.

I did say that it has dating sim mechanics. And whether they would tie into other aspects of the game or not, that would still hold true.
Though if we're being specific about the definition of a dating sim, Persona games are missing some crucial aspects that dating-sims all commonly share. These are replaced by the other aspects of Persona instead.
Is half of P5 a dating sim? I'm not sure how to quantify that. The dating sim aspect is not as important as the other aspects of the game if you want to progress. (It's fairly important though.) When it comes to time spent with the game, I will unproportionally have spent a lot more time doing things other than seeing the dating sim mechanics on screen. I'm only at the second dungeon, but I can already stay in dungeons or Mementons infinitely, which is why my save file is already on 47hrs.



Needless to say, with the amount of Social Links I have available at that point, and my stats, I haven't spent anywhere close to 23 hours on the dating sim aspect of the game.

If you only do what you have to do to get to the ending, then the dating sim aspect of P5 is probably not even 5% of the experience. It would only be the school quizzes and some forced interaction in that case, I believe.
But that's not how a typical playthrough goes. For a typical playthrough it's hard to say since I don't know how everyone plays. But for that reason, and because the incentive to interact with the dating sim mechanics is more limited, I would not label it as half of the game. It's hard to quantify. I would say it's a big and important part of it.

Edit: Was going to talk more about definition of dating sims, but I'll DM you.



Awesome, more dark JRPGs. That's what I need. I can always count on SMT to give me that. See you in 2019 (or later)!



Goodnightmoon said:
Slade6alpha said:
Hope it stays exclusive to Switch.

Why? is not exactly the kind of game that will make switch sell milions, I'm just glad is coming to switch but it would be great if was multiplatform as long as Atlus releases Persona 5 on Switch too, that would be so cool.

Most of the hints points for SmtV to be exclusive to Switch.



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