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Forums - Sports Discussion - Why does Messi needs to win a major tournament in order to be compared to Pele and Maradona?

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LurkerJ said:
BraLoD said:

You should look for Ronaldinho Gaucho moments if you want to see some of the highest quality football ever played.
At his peak he was the most untouchable player football has seem.

His peak potential didn't last long though. 

Messi has been operating at peak potential for 10 years now.

He is a bit slower but he got better at play-making and free-kicks. Still sucks major balls with penalties XD

His penalties got a lot worse the past 2 years or so. He used to be top 5 or so in conversion rate in the top european leagues.



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Talal said:
LurkerJ said:

His peak potential didn't last long though. 

Messi has been operating at peak potential for 10 years now.

He is a bit slower but he got better at play-making and free-kicks. Still sucks major balls with penalties XD

His penalties got a lot worse the past 2 years or so. He used to be top 5 or so in conversion rate in the top european leagues.

To be fair, there's a rule change in penalty taking that makes a Goalkeeper's job easier.



kurasakiichimaru said:

To be fair, there's a rule change in penalty taking that makes a Goalkeeper's job easier.

The change didn't affect him that much. He almost always just shoots normally. No stutter step or other shenanigans.

I think it's more of a confidence issue. He started missing a bit and then you could tell that he got nervous every time he stepped up to shoot a penalty.



Neodegenerate said:
bdbdbd said:

 

World cup have traditionally been biggest and baddest only for non-European teams, as the European Championships have been much harder to qualify in the first place - which is why some people value EC higher. Granted, it's debatable if the one or two American top teams make up for the rest.

So Europe has the same feeling as the US does regarding their own internal sports championships?  Did not know that.

As an American I have always found it funny that we (Americans) place the title "world champions" on our own national leagues like the NBA and MLB when there are other countries that have just as robust of leagues out there.  I have always viewed the actual world championships (World Cup, Olympics to an extent) as the biggest and baddest of them all because even though there might be some dilluted talent in there, you are competing with the best the rest of the world has to offer.

Umm... Not quite. The most obvious difference is that European championships is an international competition, while the US leagues are not. Outside of Europe there are only Brazil and maybe Argentina that have a chance on the top spot in World cup, while EC does not usually have so many bad teams playing as WC has. 



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bdbdbd said:
Neodegenerate said:

So Europe has the same feeling as the US does regarding their own internal sports championships?  Did not know that.

As an American I have always found it funny that we (Americans) place the title "world champions" on our own national leagues like the NBA and MLB when there are other countries that have just as robust of leagues out there.  I have always viewed the actual world championships (World Cup, Olympics to an extent) as the biggest and baddest of them all because even though there might be some dilluted talent in there, you are competing with the best the rest of the world has to offer.

Umm... Not quite. The most obvious difference is that European championships is an international competition, while the US leagues are not. Outside of Europe there are only Brazil and maybe Argentina that have a chance on the top spot in World cup, while EC does not usually have so many bad teams playing as WC has. 

It is the exact same argument though.  In the US, it is assumed that the rest of the world isn't as good at baseball, basketball, or football. Therefore, we celebrate our individual team success as "world champions."  Replace a city/state in the US with a country in Europe and you are saying the exact same thing.  In that one condensed area of the world the competition is high amongst those playing in that one condensed area and thus the rest of the world doesn't matter.



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Talal said:
kurasakiichimaru said:

To be fair, there's a rule change in penalty taking that makes a Goalkeeper's job easier.

The change didn't affect him that much. He almost always just shoots normally. No stutter step or other shenanigans.

I think it's more of a confidence issue. He started missing a bit and then you could tell that he got nervous every time he stepped up to shoot a penalty.

The new rule doesn't apply to stutter steps like Neymar does though.

Messi does that dummy kick a lot and that's not allowed anymore. Has to be one follow through in their penalty kicks in one movement only.



Neodegenerate said:
bdbdbd said:

Umm... Not quite. The most obvious difference is that European championships is an international competition, while the US leagues are not. Outside of Europe there are only Brazil and maybe Argentina that have a chance on the top spot in World cup, while EC does not usually have so many bad teams playing as WC has. 

It is the exact same argument though.  In the US, it is assumed that the rest of the world isn't as good at baseball, basketball, or football. Therefore, we celebrate our individual team success as "world champions."  Replace a city/state in the US with a country in Europe and you are saying the exact same thing.  In that one condensed area of the world the competition is high amongst those playing in that one condensed area and thus the rest of the world doesn't matter.

That was the same argument used from late 1800's to early 1900's; national champions were heralded as world champions. Your description would fit better to UEFA Champions league, though nobody is calling the winner world champion, just like nobody is calling European champion a world champion. 



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bdbdbd said:
Neodegenerate said:

It is the exact same argument though.  In the US, it is assumed that the rest of the world isn't as good at baseball, basketball, or football. Therefore, we celebrate our individual team success as "world champions."  Replace a city/state in the US with a country in Europe and you are saying the exact same thing.  In that one condensed area of the world the competition is high amongst those playing in that one condensed area and thus the rest of the world doesn't matter.

That was the same argument used from late 1800's to early 1900's; national champions were heralded as world champions. Your description would fit better to UEFA Champions league, though nobody is calling the winner world champion, just like nobody is calling European champion a world champion. 

Not outright sure, but to indicate that it is a more prestigious title than the actual world title certainly implies it.



Neodegenerate said:
bdbdbd said:

That was the same argument used from late 1800's to early 1900's; national champions were heralded as world champions. Your description would fit better to UEFA Champions league, though nobody is calling the winner world champion, just like nobody is calling European champion a world champion. 

Not outright sure, but to indicate that it is a more prestigious title than the actual world title certainly implies it.

Well, some people value it equally or more - not because of the winner being better per se, but because of the higher bottom line. This year there's more participants (thing I totally forgot earlier) than before, which should devalue EC to an extent.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Ronaldo has surpassed Messi today. He has achieved the second greatest prize in all football, winning the Euro in an absolute dominant individual fashion. Messi is a system player, Ronaldo is an individual that can drag any team with him. What Messi couldnt achieve with the highest ranked national football team in the world Ronaldo did with a team that most consider mediocre at best. History was made.