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Forums - Gaming Discussion - David Cage: “I don’t like game mechanics” and “you don’t need a gun to be successful”

Valdney on 12 March 2012
pezus said:
Valdney said:
That is why his game sucks so damn bad. Heavy Rain is just a bad game. Then he comes out and complains people are buying used copies of his cappy ass game. You don't belong in this medium my friend.

You're telling that to a guy who made a game that sold 2m+...



I just find it hard to be believe those numbers are official. Why would he complain about people buying used copies of his game? 



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happydolphin on 12 March 2012
RolStoppable said:
happydolphin said:
DKHustlin said:
So why doesn't he just make movies? One huge problem with his idea is having context sensitive actions will make his game as linear as can be because you can only do certain actions in a certain context so there will be no room for any other way to play the game if everyone is gong to play the game the exact same way just make a movie. The beauty of games is having core mechanics because it allows different players to have different play styles and it allows a gradual evolution of the mechanics, which is the while pint of playing a game

You know that some of gaming's biggest classics (MegaMan, Castlevania, Ninja Gaiden, SMB) are fully linear, right?

You know that you just made an idiotic statement, right?

Mega Man not only allows you to choose the order you play the stages in, but the weapons you earn by defeating bosses can alter the way you tackle these stages. For example, having the Rush Jet gives you the option to bypass an otherwise challenging platforming section.

Castlevania has various subweapons which is once again an interesting choice. Castlevania 2 used a more Metroid-like structure while the third game allowed you to choose your path and consequently your second playable character.

Ninja Gaiden is more linear than the others, but it too has subweapons. It really is the weakest series out of the bunch you named though.

Super Mario Bros. has power-ups, different ways to defeat enemies (jumping on their heads, kicking a Koopa shell into them) as well as pipes and beanstalks that allow you to bypass parts of the stage or entire worlds altogether. Super Mario Bros. 3 gives you even more choices with a myriad of power-ups and plenty of split paths on the world map.

Especially Mega Man and SMB can be replayed over and over, because you have so many options in how you play the games.

I think I poorly disambiguated linearity with pre-programmed actions. If I was unclear I apologize. I'm sorry if I get under your skin so easily it must be really irritating.

When DKHustlin said that games that are pre-programmed are linear, I wanted to show him that games that aren't pre-programmed can also be linear, and I gave him a few examples, 1 of which was ambiguous: Megaman.

In other words, games like Castlevania 1/III or Ninja Gaiden are linear though they aren't pre-programmed. I was simply trying to show that linearity wasn't his issue, but the lack of free form or game action freedom.

But it all culminates in the fact that Cage is not advocating cinematic adventures per se, but just context-driven action, like in Conker. Said actions could be performed better or worse by different players of different levels of skill, so long as that freedom is designed in the game. (more on that in my reply to Truck). Let's be proactive and exert to disambiguate, and try not to exasperate the fans of said directions by misunderstanding their advocates.

What I meant by looking for holes, I was mostly referring to Simon's Quest, where the retort added not much value to the constructive direction the thread was following up until then and did little to remove from my argument, and also made me falsely think I henceforth had to provide superfluous disambiguating details in my contributions than needed in a community of informed gamers. You don't need to apologize for anything by the way, I need to learn to work with you from where you are, and you with me. 



Kasz216 on 12 March 2012
Jay520 said:
Kasz216 said:

I don't disagree with that... with the exception that I don't think we should discoruage developers from creating such things even if they don't find critical and commercial success.

People should be free to do whatever they like, and pretty much everything has an audience or some kind... and if someone wants to make it, why the hell not?


My point is... everything on a DVD isn't a movie.  Everything on a Videogame console isn't a videogame.

 

This becomes VERY important going into the modern age of multiformats.  Example... Ebooks.

E books are books.

If I were to release "Catcher in the Rye" for Xbox 360 and put it on an DVD, it would be no less a book.

If I were to release "Catcher in the Rye" in movie theatres where every minute the "Page" turned to the next wall of text,  or if it was all scrolling text... it's not a movie, it's a book.

To refer to things based on there format instead of context is wrong.


I guess I included the critical & commercial success thing because I don't think we should actually encourage developers to release critical & commercial failures. We should discourage such a thing imo. That can't be good for the industry.

As for the Heavy Rain thing, I don't want to discuss it anymore (I can see when I've lost a debate). I guess I sort of felt insulted when people kept saying HR wasn't a game & felt obliged to say something.

Fair enough, some people probably meant it as an insult. 

I don't however.  I'm just a fan categorizations having meanings... that way it's possible to have a valid critical opinion of them.

This is espiecally important in videogames, which is a medium, despite it's huge rise in popularity among adults, is seen as a "non artistic" pursuit... partly in due to the awful state of "Critical review".

 

For an artform/media form to get mainstream approval it tends to require a strict and proffesional critical class.  He can move past that once considered "real" critical review and standards.

Art being the prototpical example of this.

A good book on it being http://www.amazon.com/End-Art-Donald-Kuspit/dp/0521832527



Lafiel on 13 March 2012
Kasz216 said:

Fair enough, some people probably meant it as an insult. 

I don't however.  I'm just a fan categorizations having meanings... that way it's possible to have a valid critical opinion of them.

This is espiecally important in videogames, which is a medium, despite it's huge rise in popularity among adults, is seen as a "non artistic" pursuit... partly in due to the awful state of "Critical review".

 

For an artform/media form to get mainstream approval it tends to require a strict and proffesional critical class.  He can move past that once considered "real" critical review and standards.

Art being the prototpical example of this.

A good book on it being http://www.amazon.com/End-Art-Donald-Kuspit/dp/0521832527


huh?

music pretty much has probably the most stupid of categorizations and it still is viewed as an art form, no? (well, man made music is at the very least some tens to hundred thousends of years old, so I guess it does have a bit of a headstart in social acceptence there)



Roma on 13 March 2012

I loved the Kara video and it would have been nice too see it as a movie instead of a game.

i hate it when games have too many cut-scenes!

and yes you don't need guns too make fun games



    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(

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Kasz216 on 13 March 2012
Lafiel said:
Kasz216 said:

Fair enough, some people probably meant it as an insult. 

I don't however.  I'm just a fan categorizations having meanings... that way it's possible to have a valid critical opinion of them.

This is espiecally important in videogames, which is a medium, despite it's huge rise in popularity among adults, is seen as a "non artistic" pursuit... partly in due to the awful state of "Critical review".

 

For an artform/media form to get mainstream approval it tends to require a strict and proffesional critical class.  He can move past that once considered "real" critical review and standards.

Art being the prototpical example of this.

A good book on it being http://www.amazon.com/End-Art-Donald-Kuspit/dp/0521832527


huh?

music pretty much has probably the most stupid of categorizations and it still is viewed as an art form, no? (well, man made music is at the very least some tens to hundred thousends of years old, so I guess it does have a bit of a headstart in social acceptence there)





binary solo on 13 March 2012
Khuutra said:
Ajescent said:
I agree, too many games rely on muscle bound soldier types armed to the teeth with misogyny and machoism, once in a while I like my games to be weapons free.


That isn't what he's saying, he says game mechanics in general get in the way of storytelling, he's just using shooter gameplay as an example.

He's the Anti-Jaffe.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

ithis on 13 March 2012
Khuutra said:
THEN PLAY SOME VISUAL NOVELS AND SHUT THE HELL UP

RAAAAAAAGH DAVID CAGE WHY DO YOU KEEP OPENING YOUR MOUTH, WORDS KEEP FALLING OUT OF IT AND INTO MY EYES


So you were forced to read the words?



Khuutra on 13 March 2012
ithis said:
Khuutra said:
THEN PLAY SOME VISUAL NOVELS AND SHUT THE HELL UP

RAAAAAAAGH DAVID CAGE WHY DO YOU KEEP OPENING YOUR MOUTH, WORDS KEEP FALLING OUT OF IT AND INTO MY EYES

So you were forced to read the words?

They're on the forum thread list, it's hard to avoid

So yes, yes I was.