Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Wii/Revolution - 3 Years Later

@makingmusic - I dont meant to cherrypick your post, Im in a rush =)

Assasin's Creed really is not much more than Thief redone and made more violent, so the concept for AC is over 10-15 years old. LBP didn't really bring anything to the table other than a level editor, which is no new concept in gaming, in fact there's an internal argument that LBP stole physics ideas from World of Goo, its hard to say who was there first.

It just seems that your laundry list you posted is somehow unique gaming where you then ask what makes the Wii games unique. Your list of games have already been proven and done before in the PC gaming world, you just might not have gotten the chance to play those games. Just because a game is popular does not make it innovative or original. As for the Wii games you ask about, the motion control systems make the experience unique. Sure, mouse games are nothing new, but you cant swing your mouse across the room to get it to perform actions on screen.

The only thing that really shocks me is this line: "Sports games and racers are really the only genres I've seen that have truly benefited from the Wii Remote thus far "

...that's really closeminded for a person that Im sure is in fact NOT closeminded. You really need to get out there and play more Wii games. Start with RE:4 on the Wii, the controls enhance this game in ways that have impressed developers worldwide.



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bardicverse said:
@makingmusic - I dont meant to cherrypick your post, Im in a rush =)

Assasin's Creed really is not much more than Thief redone and made more violent, so the concept for AC is over 10-15 years old. LBP didn't really bring anything to the table other than a level editor, which is no new concept in gaming, in fact there's an internal argument that LBP stole physics ideas from World of Goo, its hard to say who was there first.

It just seems that your laundry list you posted is somehow unique gaming where you then ask what makes the Wii games unique. Your list of games have already been proven and done before in the PC gaming world, you just might not have gotten the chance to play those games. Just because a game is popular does not make it innovative or original. As for the Wii games you ask about, the motion control systems make the experience unique. Sure, mouse games are nothing new, but you cant swing your mouse across the room to get it to perform actions on screen.

The only thing that really shocks me is this line: "Sports games and racers are really the only genres I've seen that have truly benefited from the Wii Remote thus far "

...that's really closeminded for a person that Im sure is in fact NOT closeminded. You really need to get out there and play more Wii games. Start with RE:4 on the Wii, the controls enhance this game in ways that have impressed developers worldwide.

Of all the Wii games I've played, only titles like Mario Kart and Wii Sports did I feel were a geniune improvement over their predecessors.  RE4 was an improvement over dual analog controls, yeah, but the IR sensor isn't as accurate as a KB/M.  Is it a nice alternative?  To be sure.  Is it a revolution?  Not really.  Metroid Prime 3 would've been a much better example to use here, given the grappling beam and other devices. And I'll admit, this game completely slipped my mind until just now.

Actually using a wheel to drive without having to buy some $150 steering wheel that only works with a handful of games, now that's a pretty significant thing.  Plus you can do all types of extra cool things while steering with the Wiimote, like popping a wheelie in Mario Kart.

As for LittleBigPlanet, the majority of its gameplay concepts are indeed wholly unoriginal.  What's unique about the title is the way everything is packaged together.  It's essentially the YouTube of gaming, but with a built in level editor and the simplest drop-in/drop-out multiplayer (online or off, the mix of players doesn't matter) I've experienced.  Media Molecule have made it incredibly easy to access a plethora of usermade levels, all streamed much like YouTube, and have made it rather easy for the more creative individuals out there to keep us supplied with an neverending stream of these levels.  The content is literaly endless, and the multiplayer is so fun I haven't put the game down for more than week at a time since it came out.

Also, making a feature popular is almost as important as creating the feature in the first place.  Gears of War's cover system wasn't exactly new, but it was the game that made people realize just how good a cover system can be, and it is primarily responsible for games like Rainbow Six: Vegas 2, Medal of Honor: Airborn, and Killzone 2 incorporating cover systems down the line.  The game had a substantial impact on the way modern shooters are made.

Another example would be Guitar Hero.  Was it an original title?  Hardly.  They've had Guitar Freaks in Japan for years, and other music games like SingStar and Beatmania that have popped up from time to time, yet it was Guitar Hero that started the music game craze.  It took unoriginal ideas and made them into something more, and the gaming landscape was changed as a result.

Edit:

About the World of Goo comment, I highly doubt a game that was first unveiled in March of 2007 with a full gameplay demonstration stole too many concepts from a WiiWare/PC game released in late 2008.  World of Goo wasn't even announced until April 2008, when LittleBigPlanet was well into its closed beta, and the game likely had a far shorter production cycle than LittleBigPlanet.  The implication that one ripped off the other is rather bold, and pretty unfounded.



^^ On LBP, yes I agree, there was a huge community input for level design. But can you take that crown away from Quake 3 Arena? It resulted in an entirely separate design program that became an industry staple (Radiant/GTK Radiant). I would feel confident to state that the Quake 3 Arena community was/is much larger than the LBP community.

On World of Goo, there were 2 iterations of the game before the final product, the physics system was in tact much earlier than planned. That said, there was some speculation that part of LBP delays were due to revamping the physics. This I am unsure of myself, as I was not involved in the LBP beta.

edit- on RE4, have you PLAYED the PC version? It was a terrible mess of a game. They really botched the controls on it pretty badly. The Wii version was far improved compared to any other version. Also, on KB/M combos, sure the mouse is more precise, but the KB is not more accurate than the nunchuck. The nunchuck has more response over the WASD movement.



max power said:

So... here we are 3 years after the Wii launched...

I think it's pretty clear that it's not just a fad, that its sales didn't tank, yada yada... but how is the "Revolution" doing otherwise?

 

It was code named Revolution, obviously due to the unique control scheme... but I'm not sure it has really lived up to that reputation (sales aside).  We have our classic Nintendo games (Zelda, Mario, Smash Bros) with waggle added... but really these games control just like they would on standard controllers.  The motion control adds little or nothing to the experience.

I will give credit to driving (Mario Kart) and FPS (Metroid, COD, MOH) games for actually utilizing the motion controls.  Mario Kart Wii is playable with a joystick, but more fun with a wheel.  And Metroid Prime 3/Trilogy control infinitely better (IMO) than their Gamecube counterparts.  I also primarily play FPS on PC, so I have a particular disdain for the dual analog setup, but the Wiimote works for me.

Then there's the mini-game collections.  Wii Sports started it all... and IMO has yet to be topped... the games are subtly deep as far as controls go, but there's no "campaign" mode type offering or unlockables to keep you coming back for more, just multiplayer.  Then there's the Mario/Sonic titles, Wario, Mario Party... all fun games in a party atmosphere, but not much entertainment on your own.

 

So, the system is obviously a revolution in terms of sales and turning Nintendo around after 3rd place with the GameCube, but in terms of games, I feel all we're getting is:

1.  "Waggle added" games where shaking the controller is merely substituted for pressing a button
2.  FPS/Driving games with better (read: More fun) controls than their analog joystick counterparts
3.  Minigame collections

 

So I guess that's partially a revolution.  I think I expected to see more games with the motion controls as a key gameplay mechanic (Project Hammer?), rather than an afterthought or just minigame collection.

Thoughts?

You mention the tacked on waggle for Zelda, but it was a Gamecube game.  I expect the Wii Zelda will be amazing with Motion +.  Smash Bros doesn't use motion and Mario shouldn't have.  Metroid's controls were amazing and Mario Karts were great. 

I agree a lot of the controls have been an afterthought, but it looks like that's turning around with the new round of games coming out in 2010.

 

Although intentionally not the focus of the game (thank god), there is a single player section with unlockables in Wii Sports. 

I think motion controls will be standard on all next gen systems.  Also you only need to look at a shift in Microsoft and Sony's attitudes towards motion to see that has already started.  The industry is changing (it will be a slow process) and I think that is definitely a revolution. 

 



Smash Bros: 2363-5325-6342 

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Nick said:
max power said:

So... here we are 3 years after the Wii launched...

I think it's pretty clear that it's not just a fad, that its sales didn't tank, yada yada... but how is the "Revolution" doing otherwise?

 

It was code named Revolution, obviously due to the unique control scheme... but I'm not sure it has really lived up to that reputation (sales aside).  We have our classic Nintendo games (Zelda, Mario, Smash Bros) with waggle added... but really these games control just like they would on standard controllers.  The motion control adds little or nothing to the experience.

I will give credit to driving (Mario Kart) and FPS (Metroid, COD, MOH) games for actually utilizing the motion controls.  Mario Kart Wii is playable with a joystick, but more fun with a wheel.  And Metroid Prime 3/Trilogy control infinitely better (IMO) than their Gamecube counterparts.  I also primarily play FPS on PC, so I have a particular disdain for the dual analog setup, but the Wiimote works for me.

Then there's the mini-game collections.  Wii Sports started it all... and IMO has yet to be topped... the games are subtly deep as far as controls go, but there's no "campaign" mode type offering or unlockables to keep you coming back for more, just multiplayer.  Then there's the Mario/Sonic titles, Wario, Mario Party... all fun games in a party atmosphere, but not much entertainment on your own.

 

So, the system is obviously a revolution in terms of sales and turning Nintendo around after 3rd place with the GameCube, but in terms of games, I feel all we're getting is:

1.  "Waggle added" games where shaking the controller is merely substituted for pressing a button
2.  FPS/Driving games with better (read: More fun) controls than their analog joystick counterparts
3.  Minigame collections

 

So I guess that's partially a revolution.  I think I expected to see more games with the motion controls as a key gameplay mechanic (Project Hammer?), rather than an afterthought or just minigame collection.

Thoughts?

You mention the tacked on waggle for Zelda, but it was a Gamecube game.  I expect the Wii Zelda will be amazing with Motion +.  Smash Bros doesn't use motion and Mario shouldn't have.  Metroid's controls were amazing and Mario Karts were great. 

I agree a lot of the controls have been an afterthought, but it looks like that's turning around with the new round of games coming out in 2010.

 

Although intentionally not the focus of the game (thank god), there is a single player section with unlockables in Wii Sports. 

I think motion controls will be standard on all next gen systems.  Also you only need to look at a shift in Microsoft and Sony's attitudes towards motion to see that has already started.  The industry is changing (it will be a slow process) and I think that is definitely a revolution. 

 

It's not just Zelda, though.  Galaxy wasn't original a Gamecube game, nor was New Super Mario Bros Wii, but both of them primarily use controller "shake" as an additional button in the game.

 

And I'm repeating myself, but I'm 100% happy with a traditional controller 2D and 3D Mario, Zelda, whatever game.  I just don't feel that adding "shake the controller" to jump or do something random adds any value to the game whatsoever.



max power said:
Nick said:
max power said:

So... here we are 3 years after the Wii launched...

I think it's pretty clear that it's not just a fad, that its sales didn't tank, yada yada... but how is the "Revolution" doing otherwise?

 

It was code named Revolution, obviously due to the unique control scheme... but I'm not sure it has really lived up to that reputation (sales aside).  We have our classic Nintendo games (Zelda, Mario, Smash Bros) with waggle added... but really these games control just like they would on standard controllers.  The motion control adds little or nothing to the experience.

I will give credit to driving (Mario Kart) and FPS (Metroid, COD, MOH) games for actually utilizing the motion controls.  Mario Kart Wii is playable with a joystick, but more fun with a wheel.  And Metroid Prime 3/Trilogy control infinitely better (IMO) than their Gamecube counterparts.  I also primarily play FPS on PC, so I have a particular disdain for the dual analog setup, but the Wiimote works for me.

Then there's the mini-game collections.  Wii Sports started it all... and IMO has yet to be topped... the games are subtly deep as far as controls go, but there's no "campaign" mode type offering or unlockables to keep you coming back for more, just multiplayer.  Then there's the Mario/Sonic titles, Wario, Mario Party... all fun games in a party atmosphere, but not much entertainment on your own.

 

So, the system is obviously a revolution in terms of sales and turning Nintendo around after 3rd place with the GameCube, but in terms of games, I feel all we're getting is:

1.  "Waggle added" games where shaking the controller is merely substituted for pressing a button
2.  FPS/Driving games with better (read: More fun) controls than their analog joystick counterparts
3.  Minigame collections

 

So I guess that's partially a revolution.  I think I expected to see more games with the motion controls as a key gameplay mechanic (Project Hammer?), rather than an afterthought or just minigame collection.

Thoughts?

You mention the tacked on waggle for Zelda, but it was a Gamecube game.  I expect the Wii Zelda will be amazing with Motion +.  Smash Bros doesn't use motion and Mario shouldn't have.  Metroid's controls were amazing and Mario Karts were great. 

I agree a lot of the controls have been an afterthought, but it looks like that's turning around with the new round of games coming out in 2010.

 

Although intentionally not the focus of the game (thank god), there is a single player section with unlockables in Wii Sports. 

I think motion controls will be standard on all next gen systems.  Also you only need to look at a shift in Microsoft and Sony's attitudes towards motion to see that has already started.  The industry is changing (it will be a slow process) and I think that is definitely a revolution. 

 

It's not just Zelda, though.  Galaxy wasn't original a Gamecube game, nor was New Super Mario Bros Wii, but both of them primarily use controller "shake" as an additional button in the game.

 

And I'm repeating myself, but I'm 100% happy with a traditional controller 2D and 3D Mario, Zelda, whatever game.  I just don't feel that adding "shake the controller" to jump or do something random adds any value to the game whatsoever.

I agree that it doesn't really add anything to either Mario, but I don't think motion controls are something that can really be used well with platformers.



Smash Bros: 2363-5325-6342 

Im posting here again because Im right all along. This is what you get when you have different opinion from the collective. even you're right you cant brag about it especially with the price cut. The Wii takes momentum and maintain its sales without the help of price cut. It maintain its sales by NSMB Wii and WSR. And as for the topic, the ghost of 2006 was still around the core gamers and still haunting them till today.



Its like discussing with a brick wall. Anyone still dont get it? The wii was successful is to why facebook games are successful. We're on a niche market, and the demographics these "core games" are catered to 13-21 year old males. NO EXCEPTIONS. Just goto youtube commentary vid on COD 4 and MW2 and listen to their voice. Most of them are teens. One example was shokio. He is 16 years old samuelthegeek was also on his teen



If WSR and Wii Sports and other "casual games" are successful was because its popular. Lets just accept it, core gamers are niche audience. After adulthood and parenting and girls we never care for these games anymore. Even COD MW2. It will be just a memory back in our head just like Doom



end of core gaming days prediction:

 

E3 2006-The beginning of the end. Wii introduced

 

E3 2008- Armageddon. Wii motion plus introduced. Wii Music. Reggie says Animal crossing was a core game. Massive disappointment. many Wii core gamers selling their Wii.

 

E3 2010- Tape runs out

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2009/ICG_Tape_runs_out.jpg

max power said:
bazmeistergen said:
Ail said:
Well overall I can't say the Wii has had a huge impact on the game industry at large.

It has not become the defacto PS2 successor as many had predicted 2 years ago as the majority of the PS2 franchises have stayed clear of the Wii


Why would PS2 sales migrating to Nintendo be a large impact? It would mean this generation having the same games as the last. That would be a kind of status quo. Personally I think the impact is still happening, look at Natal and PS3 Glowball Stix (tm). Look at the way the industry has reacted to the 'threat' of the Wii. The turmoil amongst journalists, the flailing around by companies to find an audience (EA's ridiculous all-play marketing, for example) is evidence of the disruption.

That is evidence of a disruption in sales/business.  I guess I more wanted to see a revolution in games/gameplay.

 

I'm still controlling Mario and Link with a joystick and buttons.  And I'm perfectly okay with that... but it's not a Revolution.

Wii Sports I view as a tech demo. 

 

 

 

*sigh* Thats it for me then. Everyone still dont get it. Lets include Link's crossbow training, Wii play and WSR in the mix too.



end of core gaming days prediction:

 

E3 2006-The beginning of the end. Wii introduced

 

E3 2008- Armageddon. Wii motion plus introduced. Wii Music. Reggie says Animal crossing was a core game. Massive disappointment. many Wii core gamers selling their Wii.

 

E3 2010- Tape runs out

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2009/ICG_Tape_runs_out.jpg

^^^^ Exactly how I feel, the intelligence level over the past 6 months here has tanked.