Forums - Gaming Discussion - 360 CPU and Cell are fairly equal according to Dave Shippy

Ascended_Saiyan3 said:
heruamon said:
I honestly believe that we will see far more from both consoles in years to come, as developers learn to manipulate the multi-core processors that they are. The Wii was not desgined for this, but Nintendo is in a great spot, since they can now take the time and do the due diligence to ensure they deliver the "right" amount of capabilty in their next console. Personally, I think PS3 and 360 could go on for another 5-7 years without a newer console, and still deliver top notch games, BUT that won't happen, and you can expect to see new systems out in 3-4 at most, imho.

Looking at the clock cycles being used on X360 games, I would say you will see very little increase in performance from X360 games.  Optimized code on the X360 (already at 100% CPU clock cycle usage) will only yield about a 15% increase in power.  On the other hand, optimized code on the PS3 (already at 100% CPU clock cycle usage) could yield 400% or MORE increase in power (based on different universities studies).  I don't believe any developer has vectorized their code for the PS3 at this point.  Naughty Dog said they just migrated their systems over to the SPEs and pipelined their engine to use 100% of the CPU clock cycles (that was the REALLY hard part), but haven't optimized their code, yet.

New PS console will most likely arrive around the same time as usual in the previous consoles lifecycle (around the 6 year mark...maybe earlier if MS jumps the gun).  The next gen would be MS's 3rd console and they haven't establishd a pattern of any kind for release, yet.  According to MS, the X360 is suppose to be supported for a total of 7 years.  The PS3 is suppose to be supported for 9 or 10 years.

 

Unlike Haloooo...I do enjoy talking about this stuff, but in the context of gaming, I have a hard time believing the PS3 has 400% more capability in the console...what's that in terms of quality, actual photo-realistic models?...I don't think current ps3 look 400% better than the ps2 game before it...time will tell, but I watch the demo of killzone, and while the game is nice looking...errr....not even close.

Haloooo is right about having a powerful beast of a machine...this isn't a drag race...it's a business, and the one who can do it cheaper and sell more wins...The Gensis was the better console...lost....so was the Sega Saturn...remember Neo Geo?  To this day, I'll say it again and again, Sony overreached with the PS3, and it squandered a critical advantage that it might never get back.  It let M$ get it's foot in the door, and they basically recharged Nintendo (the tradition console power) with the Wii. 

 



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

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heruamon said:
Ascended_Saiyan3 said:
heruamon said:
I honestly believe that we will see far more from both consoles in years to come, as developers learn to manipulate the multi-core processors that they are. The Wii was not desgined for this, but Nintendo is in a great spot, since they can now take the time and do the due diligence to ensure they deliver the "right" amount of capabilty in their next console. Personally, I think PS3 and 360 could go on for another 5-7 years without a newer console, and still deliver top notch games, BUT that won't happen, and you can expect to see new systems out in 3-4 at most, imho.

Looking at the clock cycles being used on X360 games, I would say you will see very little increase in performance from X360 games.  Optimized code on the X360 (already at 100% CPU clock cycle usage) will only yield about a 15% increase in power.  On the other hand, optimized code on the PS3 (already at 100% CPU clock cycle usage) could yield 400% or MORE increase in power (based on different universities studies).  I don't believe any developer has vectorized their code for the PS3 at this point.  Naughty Dog said they just migrated their systems over to the SPEs and pipelined their engine to use 100% of the CPU clock cycles (that was the REALLY hard part), but haven't optimized their code, yet.

New PS console will most likely arrive around the same time as usual in the previous consoles lifecycle (around the 6 year mark...maybe earlier if MS jumps the gun).  The next gen would be MS's 3rd console and they haven't establishd a pattern of any kind for release, yet.  According to MS, the X360 is suppose to be supported for a total of 7 years.  The PS3 is suppose to be supported for 9 or 10 years.

 

Unlike Haloooo...I do enjoy talking about this stuff, but in the context of gaming, I have a hard time believing the PS3 has 400% more capability in the console...what's that in terms of quality, actual photo-realistic models?...I don't think current ps3 look 400% better than the ps2 game before it...time will tell, but I watch the demo of killzone, and while the game is nice looking...errr....not even close.

Haloooo is right about having a powerful beast of a machine...this isn't a drag race...it's a business, and the one who can do it cheaper and sell more wins...The Gensis was the better console...lost....so was the Sega Saturn...remember Neo Geo?  To this day, I'll say it again and again, Sony overreached with the PS3, and it squandered a critical advantage that it might never get back.  It let M$ get it's foot in the door, and they basically recharged Nintendo (the tradition console power) with the Wii. 

 

I didn't say LOOK 400% better.  Looking 400% better and and having 400% more CPU power are completely different things.  I posted the research links in this thread 2 times.  Chances are that some tasks could see a 800% speed increase from vertorizing (and that's after you have already reached 100% CPU clock cycles).  Even being ridiculously conservative, you are looking at 100% increase over the power used in Uncharted 2.

I don't know what selling more units have to do with this discussion.  That's a completely different subject matter.  However, I don't know many smart people that won't want a system offering better graphics, audio, AND gameplay (basically a better immersion experience).  These are things that more power afford you.  It also increases longevity.  Otherwise, why look forward to the next generation of consoles?  It wouldn't make much sense now, would it?

 



Ascended_Saiyan3 said:

However, I don't know many smart people that won't want a system offering better graphics, audio, AND gameplay (basically a better immersion experience).  These are things that more power afford you.  It also increases longevity.

You are talking about PC there right? :)

Btw, have you ever programmed anything(More than hello world, of course... -.-)? Your numbers are way off and your assumptions are quite wrong all the time. Running parallel programs isn't that easy really, especially on heterogeneous platform. Of course you can run some simple programs that are embarassily parallel quite fast, but anything more complex will take serious amount of designing time. You do know that parallism is usually designed memory wise more than CPU wise and you really can't say that something with 8 cores can run things 8 times faster etc.? :)



Deneidez said:
Ascended_Saiyan3 said:

However, I don't know many smart people that won't want a system offering better graphics, audio, AND gameplay (basically a better immersion experience).  These are things that more power afford you.  It also increases longevity.

You are talking about PC there right? :)

Btw, have you ever programmed anything(More than hello world, of course... -.-)? Your numbers are way off and your assumptions are quite wrong all the time. Running parallel programs isn't that easy really, especially on heterogeneous platform. Of course you can run some simple programs that are embarassily parallel quite fast, but anything more complex will take serious amount of designing time. You do know that parallism is usually designed memory wise more than CPU wise and you really can't say that something with 8 cores can run things 8 times faster etc.? :)

 

no you cannot because every application will have result's that can be variable, but what you can do is give finding's on test's you have done with a platform and it's result's on running that App. the Cell processor is a :

Hybrid Memory Management Processor

example of a good use:

A strong point about Cell is its SIMD functionality.

When appropriate, it lets you garner vast performance by crunching parallel data streams. For certain matrix operations, including a lot of image processing, SIMD is valid, and if these are your main applications, it is well worth taking a close look at using Cell.

Matthew Scarpino

has a very good book on programming on the Cell Processor so if your interested you may want to look it up.

though there are a few thing's in there that's a little outdated. like apple moved toward Intel instead of power. but the book came out in early 2008

so, that's one of the thing's that's dated. but for the most part the book is Quite helpful, if you want to develop for the Cell.

 



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

heruamon said:

Unlike Haloooo...I do enjoy talking about this stuff, but in the context of gaming, I have a hard time believing the PS3 has 400% more capability in the console...what's that in terms of quality, actual photo-realistic models?...I don't think current ps3 look 400% better than the ps2 game before it...time will tell, but I watch the demo of killzone, and while the game is nice looking...errr....not even close.

Haloooo is right about having a powerful beast of a machine...this isn't a drag race...it's a business, and the one who can do it cheaper and sell more wins...The Gensis was the better console...lost....so was the Sega Saturn...remember Neo Geo?  To this day, I'll say it again and again, Sony overreached with the PS3, and it squandered a critical advantage that it might never get back.  It let M$ get it's foot in the door, and they basically recharged Nintendo (the tradition console power) with the Wii. 

 

I agree completely.  Improvements from here on out will largely be through the cleverness of the teams developing the games, and not about the power of the console's CPU or GPU at all, really.

For all practical purposes, the X360 and the PS3 on equal footing.  We could argue forever about the advantages of each architecture over the other, and in the end, those differences will be completely overshadowed by the design decisions, and skill, of the teams making the games on them.

 



 

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Procrastinato said:
heruamon said:

Unlike Haloooo...I do enjoy talking about this stuff, but in the context of gaming, I have a hard time believing the PS3 has 400% more capability in the console...what's that in terms of quality, actual photo-realistic models?...I don't think current ps3 look 400% better than the ps2 game before it...time will tell, but I watch the demo of killzone, and while the game is nice looking...errr....not even close.

Haloooo is right about having a powerful beast of a machine...this isn't a drag race...it's a business, and the one who can do it cheaper and sell more wins...The Gensis was the better console...lost....so was the Sega Saturn...remember Neo Geo?  To this day, I'll say it again and again, Sony overreached with the PS3, and it squandered a critical advantage that it might never get back.  It let M$ get it's foot in the door, and they basically recharged Nintendo (the tradition console power) with the Wii. 

 

I agree completely.  Improvements from here on out will largely be through the cleverness of the teams developing the games, and not about the power of the console's CPU or GPU at all, really.

For all practical purposes, the X360 and the PS3 on equal footing.  We could argue forever about the advantages of each architecture over the other, and in the end, those differences will be completely overshadowed by the design decisions, and skill, of the teams making the games on them.

 

yup.what it boil's down to anyway the skill of the developer, and the performance of the Machine is pretty much a a guide line on what the machine is capable of .with Time, experience and IDEAS you want to impliment in the project. ie: game's, than you have result's.Not everyone may not like your result's. but there is Alway's room for Improvement.

this generation will have none of the consoles as what people may term as a "FAILURE" because this generation, each Console by

Nintendo

SONY

Microsoft

Will generate more profit's than the previous generation console

why because each console this generation has more "revenue" streams for each Companies Console than that conpanies console had last generation. because of Simply online distribution alone has many thing's for each company to generate revenue.

ALL the system's have online network, that sale, software, and esp. with Sony and Microsoft movies for rent, and buy with Sony's network,Placement ADVERTISEMENT for other companies on their network's. XBOXLIVE,HOME, Nintendo. for Sony just with Blu-Ray alone, there are many "revenue" stream's that Sony can get.

haveing a lower Market share is alway's a Bad thing no doubt about that Companies all want the most market share they can get.

but on the same token Each company will generate more money this generation in their market share than they did last time.

 

 



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

joeorc said:
Procrastinato said:
heruamon said:

Unlike Haloooo...I do enjoy talking about this stuff, but in the context of gaming, I have a hard time believing the PS3 has 400% more capability in the console...what's that in terms of quality, actual photo-realistic models?...I don't think current ps3 look 400% better than the ps2 game before it...time will tell, but I watch the demo of killzone, and while the game is nice looking...errr....not even close.

Haloooo is right about having a powerful beast of a machine...this isn't a drag race...it's a business, and the one who can do it cheaper and sell more wins...The Gensis was the better console...lost....so was the Sega Saturn...remember Neo Geo?  To this day, I'll say it again and again, Sony overreached with the PS3, and it squandered a critical advantage that it might never get back.  It let M$ get it's foot in the door, and they basically recharged Nintendo (the tradition console power) with the Wii. 

 

I agree completely.  Improvements from here on out will largely be through the cleverness of the teams developing the games, and not about the power of the console's CPU or GPU at all, really.

For all practical purposes, the X360 and the PS3 on equal footing.  We could argue forever about the advantages of each architecture over the other, and in the end, those differences will be completely overshadowed by the design decisions, and skill, of the teams making the games on them.

 

yup.what it boil's down to anyway the skill of the developer, and the performance of the Machine is pretty much a a guide line on what the machine is capable of .with Time, experience and IDEAS you want to impliment in the project. ie: game's, than you have result's.Not everyone may not like your result's. but there is Alway's room for Improvement.

this generation will have none of the consoles as what people may term as a "FAILURE" because this generation, each Console by

Nintendo

SONY

Microsoft

Will generate more profit's than the previous generation console

why because each console this generation has more "revenue" streams for each Companies Console than that conpanies console had last generation. because of Simply online distribution alone has many thing's for each company to generate revenue.

ALL the system's have online network, that sale, software, and esp. with Sony and Microsoft movies for rent, and buy with Sony's network,Placement ADVERTISEMENT for other companies on their network's. XBOXLIVE,HOME, Nintendo. for Sony just with Blu-Ray alone, there are many "revenue" stream's that Sony can get.

haveing a lower Market share is alway's a Bad thing no doubt about that Companies all want the most market share they can get.

but on the same token Each company will generate more money this generation in their market share than they did last time.

 

 

 

Maybe more revenue, but I have serious doubts about the PS3 generating more profits...that's part of the ps3's problems....the ps2!  The console was SO dominate, and such a seller (it's STILL selling!), that the ps3 total pales in comparison from a financial standpoint.  It's a testament to the great job Sony did on developing the console, but it sets a tough act to follow.  Even with all of its technical challenges, the xbox 360 has totally blown away the original xbox (which was a technically solid platform) in performance as a marketable product.  M$ did a pretty darn good job making it easy to program for the console, and they are probably going to make it even easier in the next console.  Without the headaches of making an operating system that is flexible to handle a ton of options, the xbox OS is extremely slick, and whereas M$ stumbled on Vista, they nailed it on Xbox 360.  This has probably contributed to some developers getting "lazy" on pushing the 360, but when you compare Gears of War to Gears of War 2...you see that the 360 has ALOT of room to expand, and I'm sure there's a simple example in Resistance to Resistance 2.

 



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

heruamon said:
joeorc said:
Procrastinato said:
heruamon said:

Unlike Haloooo...I do enjoy talking about this stuff, but in the context of gaming, I have a hard time believing the PS3 has 400% more capability in the console...what's that in terms of quality, actual photo-realistic models?...I don't think current ps3 look 400% better than the ps2 game before it...time will tell, but I watch the demo of killzone, and while the game is nice looking...errr....not even close.

Haloooo is right about having a powerful beast of a machine...this isn't a drag race...it's a business, and the one who can do it cheaper and sell more wins...The Gensis was the better console...lost....so was the Sega Saturn...remember Neo Geo?  To this day, I'll say it again and again, Sony overreached with the PS3, and it squandered a critical advantage that it might never get back.  It let M$ get it's foot in the door, and they basically recharged Nintendo (the tradition console power) with the Wii. 

 

I agree completely.  Improvements from here on out will largely be through the cleverness of the teams developing the games, and not about the power of the console's CPU or GPU at all, really.

For all practical purposes, the X360 and the PS3 on equal footing.  We could argue forever about the advantages of each architecture over the other, and in the end, those differences will be completely overshadowed by the design decisions, and skill, of the teams making the games on them.

 

yup.what it boil's down to anyway the skill of the developer, and the performance of the Machine is pretty much a a guide line on what the machine is capable of .with Time, experience and IDEAS you want to impliment in the project. ie: game's, than you have result's.Not everyone may not like your result's. but there is Alway's room for Improvement.

this generation will have none of the consoles as what people may term as a "FAILURE" because this generation, each Console by

Nintendo

SONY

Microsoft

Will generate more profit's than the previous generation console

why because each console this generation has more "revenue" streams for each Companies Console than that conpanies console had last generation. because of Simply online distribution alone has many thing's for each company to generate revenue.

ALL the system's have online network, that sale, software, and esp. with Sony and Microsoft movies for rent, and buy with Sony's network,Placement ADVERTISEMENT for other companies on their network's. XBOXLIVE,HOME, Nintendo. for Sony just with Blu-Ray alone, there are many "revenue" stream's that Sony can get.

haveing a lower Market share is alway's a Bad thing no doubt about that Companies all want the most market share they can get.

but on the same token Each company will generate more money this generation in their market share than they did last time.

 

 

 

Maybe more revenue, but I have serious doubts about the PS3 generating more profits...that's part of the ps3's problems....the ps2!  The console was SO dominate, and such a seller (it's STILL selling!), that the ps3 total pales in comparison from a financial standpoint.  It's a testament to the great job Sony did on developing the console, but it sets a tough act to follow.  Even with all of its technical challenges, the xbox 360 has totally blown away the original xbox (which was a technically solid platform) in performance as a marketable product.  M$ did a pretty darn good job making it easy to program for the console, and they are probably going to make it even easier in the next console.  Without the headaches of making an operating system that is flexible to handle a ton of options, the xbox OS is extremely slick, and whereas M$ stumbled on Vista, they nailed it on Xbox 360.  This has probably contributed to some developers getting "lazy" on pushing the 360, but when you compare Gears of War to Gears of War 2...you see that the 360 has ALOT of room to expand, and I'm sure there's a simple example in Resistance to Resistance 2.

 

if you have doubt's about The PS3 generating more profit's than the PS2...i can see what you are saying, but you cannot point out the ps2,xbox,game cube era to these new machine's because, unlike the prev. generation there is more income stream's per console this time than last.

example: just with Sony

for every Blu-Ray disc blank sold to other OEM's, or software published on a blu-ray disc's, Sony recieve's a cut or the blu-ray diode sold to OEM's ,also blu-ray optical drive's to OEM's.sony is also a major holder of licences in the Blu-Ray consortium. now also take in the fact that 24 publisher's have also signed up to the PSN:network, and that may be for not only the psn:store but for the PSN:HOME also. and they are there to sell content, or ad space,Movie sold, rented on the PSN:store, music,ONLINE GAMES that can be sold to the PSP or PS3 user. ad in user created content also.product promotion's. etc.

this generation xbox360

 has many form's of profit streams. xboxlive, Rented movie's, rented ad space, product promotion's , online game's sale's and game's sold at retail.user created content.

nintendo's

has also online profit stream's, wii chan., ad space, game distributed online, product promotion, game products like new controller's, game's sold at retail.

firmware updates also give's a great bonus to the system's by adding feature's and fixing problem's

that's one of the big advantages this generation compared to last ..more profit stream's per system

 

 



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

To date the PS3 has not turned a profit yet, in fact so far it has cost Sony Billions in losses which only have been partially ofset in the gaming devision(SCEI) by the profits brought in by the PS2 and PSP.

Sony in short has lost and is still losing tons of money on the PS3.



If the PS3 last 10 years...there is a possible chance of it breaking even, but it's going to be tough going...and the simple reason is...look at the ps2's software sales...with 130 million consoles sold...when was the last time it pushed alot of software? As it stands, the ps3 is already a software laggard, so expecting it to be burning up the charts in 3 years, when newer consoles are out on the market is a stretch...



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder