Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Here's a list of things i didn't like in botw/want them to improve in botw 2

I like Zelda breath of the wild fine, but i do think there were some problem that came with the change of direction the series went with. Because is almost impossible to discuss something about it without some very passinonate fans(to put my euphemisms to use) coming and declaring their love of everything about it, and how perfect it is, and how that another thing is worse so why you're complaining, and how it got a 97 so stay salty, and etc, its hard to talk about it directly. So i wanted to just have it written somewhere. If you feel like those fans that makes me happy, so please don't be mad while reading to this. It's not a direct attack, is just a thing i wanted to do for myself.

Also i want to recognize beforehand that a lot of the problems i'm about to point to are just the result of the development team not having infinite time and resources. At some point they needed to have the game out of the gate, and with them seemingly changing directions to something more open while still in development, a lot of my gripes with it are understandable and easily addressed in a sequel. I'll also refer to this in more specific points, but its more useful if i can just refer back to this later on.

1- The armor system completely negates the climate challenges and all systems related to it. Cold in botw is only a problem while you are on the great plateau, because once you get the armor on the ice peak with the old man, it is solved forever. In any snow area later, you dont have any reason to care or fear the lower temperatures, just go to the menu and equip the armor and its done. There's no interesting choice here, it is the only useful answer, unless you want to make it harder for yourself by eating food or traveling with a fire sword. This applies to the vulcan and desert areas too, and it makes the fact that the game has these different enviroment mechanics borderline uneventful. I feel like applicating some direct player setbacks to using said armors, like making you move slower or in a different way depending on which equipment you use, would help them feeling more special, and the enviroment challenges more interesting( I know,of course, that the equipment have different status and do more or less damage than others, but because of how the weapon and combat system work, it doesn't really matter, more on this later).

There are,of course, armor pieces that affect the player more directly, such as the zora armor and the climbing armor. I do like the idea of them, and i hope that's the direction they go the next game.

2- The game doesn't have enough meaningful rewards. Look,i know to some people climbing by itself is satisfactory, and the way the land is made makes the game feel like a great fantasy adventure and whatever, but to me it is not enough. While you're going by in botw, the number of meaningful things to do, to me, is limited. You can either hunt korok seeds, look for a shrine or just go to the next story path. Most of the time you find something different or weird, it is related to those three things, and it just makes them feel less special. the korok puzzles often catch you off guard, but it also just mean that every time i see something weird in the overworld i already know what it is beforehand; just a korok seed puzzle. Sometimes you find old structures, like a maze or a fallen castle, but i also already know what they are; a path to a shrine that will give me something. It makes the world feel less special.

rn

As i said before, i do understand it isn't like this to everyone. I know that to some people, simply being in the maze and finding your way is already enough as a reward, but i'm not like that. I do enjoy being in the maze, but knowing that its just the same shrine model that i see everyone in the overworld just makes me tired. It is an aesthetic problem i admit, but i dont think that makes it not important regardless. On that maze example, if the reward was the same( a piece of armor, if i'm not mistaken) but the location in which you get it is an old altar, or if there's an old warrior boss rooting in a deceased dungeon waiting for you, it makes it way more engaging. It tells you about the world, and it makes it more memorable. So i hope that they diversify in the sequel. Make some of the korok puzzles different things, with a different context; it makes all the difference. Don't tie every weapon/armor reward to a shrine, it just makes it feel less special.

3- The combat is way too simple, and its also way too inconsequential.

The only times you can die at any moment on an enemy encounter in this game are the first hours, before you have more than 5 hearts, and that's only because a lot of enemies do more damage than the health you have, which means a bunch of them one-shot you. Once you get enough hearts however, you can just pause and eat at any moment and avoid dying,so you can bruteforce them. You can just escape easily without dying, because at most they will throw an arrow at you or, in rare cases, follow you by horse. 

Even then, i have a hard time making myself engage on the combats regardless because for starters, after you get enough good weapons fighting enemy camps will just drain your resources; they won't have anything better than what you already has. Most of the loot is also things you can find somewhere else in the overworld.

And the combat itself is, to put it mildly, boring. I dont expect it to be devil may cry or anything, and i do understand they probably wanted to emphasize the use of the enviroment and your other tools to take down bad guys, instead of just pure swordfighting. But there needs to be more to it. Most of the fights resume to you attacking with the normal three hits, avoiding the offensive, using the slow down mechanic to do a rush counter attack. Repeat. There's basically nothing to it, which made me not want to ever waste my time on that activity. If some of the armor unlocked more moves, or if you learned from some old sage or whatever, i'd feel more compeled to give it another shot.

4- The story isn't charming enough for me to even consider it a meaningful reward and go after. I don't expect anything complex or heavy handed from zelda, what i want is a reason to care. One of my most liked aspects of the franchise is that it's not just that you save the world by beating a huge demon boss at the end, you get stronger and help people more directly by making them happier, and helping them personally. That's why characters in old games are more memorable even if the writing was always very simple. Here i'm just recruiting dead people that i dont know and their stories of the past, and i'm sorry but i dont care. It's like starting FFVI in the world of ruin without the first part to give it context and meaning, i wouldnt give a shit about anyone or anything. I don't care about zelda just because of her diary, i didnt experience any of it. I just saw glimpses of something i'm supposed to care because the game told me to. Avenging the a world that i only saw on its deceased form is not compelling enough for me. Not in this case at least, the cutscenes only sold me on mipha and that's mostly because her character defining factors is very simplistic and easy to symphatyze with.

rn

rn

5- Dungeons and shrines need aesthetic and structure changes. I already said how i feel shrines become less special very quickly, but is not like they need to throw the concept away entirely. I understand they can't make every single one of them unique, because its unfeasible, but they can, as a suggestion, separate them in categories. Make the tests of strength look a certain way, the puzzle heavy ones another, the maze like ones another, etc. Also, as i said before, try to not have shrine when you're just entering them to get a chest, integrate the reward in the world.

The dungeons, funnily enough, are not that bad in my opinion. They are made in a way that requires you to understand how they operate, and change their layout to progress, which is a thing i'm a big fan of. I just think they could integrate them more in the overworld, and make the athmosphere of each one more memorable. They all look the same on the inside, they all have similar mechanics, and they all have a boring boss that also looks similar, even if they function in a different way. Again, i understand that a lot of that just comes out like this because time and money aren't infinite, but as a consumer i can always respectfully ask for more. I do also think they can implement more things now that they have an engine that they are familiar with, as well as a lot of ready to use assets.

These are the ones that i find the most grave, tho i have a loooooong list of smaller ones. I didn't adress stuff like enemy variety, the weapon and armor limited slots and how it affects things, how rain works and etc because i am confident on those being things they would change in the sequel, and i also didnt wanted this to be too long. I'm carefully optmistic about the sequel, if they work well it could be one of my favorite games of all time.

As it is, botw is a very good game and maybe the best beta of all time. But that's all.



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I agree with most of this list, but personally BOTW's combat was some of the most fun I have ever had with any combat. It was so simple yet so fun



stop breaking my stuff



Finale said: 

(..)

1- The armor system completely negates the climate challenges and all systems related to it. Cold in botw is only a problem while you are on the great plateau, because once you get the armor on the ice peak with the old man, it is solved forever. In any snow area later, you dont have any reason to care or fear the lower temperatures, just go to the menu and equip the armor and its done. (..)

This isn’t true. And made me stop reading any further.

The initial cold armor isn’t adequate enough for the colder areas in the game. You’ll suffer damage just like if you wouldn’t wear it at all if you only wear the cold resistant shirt you get on the Plateau in parts like the top of Mount Lanayru. You’ll need cold resistant food or potions, get better cold resistant armor, or equip combinations of items that work against the cold like the flame swords. There’s multiple levels of cold resistance suitable for different environments. The same goes for heat resistant, though that also has a secondary hazard; flame resistance.

Anyway Breath of the Wild is great, wouldn’t change much, I just hope the new game will mold the old dungeon style back into it some more. The shrines and the divine beasts were fine for what they were, but the game needed some bigger dungeons with unique styles and themes and bosses.

Last edited by S.Peelman - on 08 August 2020

1- If they didn't give you something to make up for the cold/heat at all in the game it would suck and people would have complained. You have to get there and do a little while with potions/meals but i do like the fact you can unlock armor making you resistent. Like it also make sense since there is people living there like in the desert and snowy area so it make sense that they have developped ways to survive and they just share/sell you these options.

2- Well sometimes i do agree, but it's not always the case. You have side quests, visual landscape, puzzles, camps. The world feeling big was necessary so it needed to have points where there isn't necessary a reward other than just a beautiful sunset. Without empty places the game would be way too crowded. I feel like you guys don't really think about how it would be otherwise.

3- Easy to learn but there is a lot you can do with your runes, environnement, combos. Just depends on if you wanna keep it simple or actually play it however you want. I do agree they could expand, but i don't get it when it's way more deep than most Zelda games.

4- I do agree it would be better to have a story in the current time. I didn't dislike what they did with botw tho.

5- Agreed with shrines, they should have been a little more experimental with them like in the DLC which were pretty enjoyable. I really liked the turn on dungeon they took with this game. I do prefer actual dungeon, but again, we gotta stop comparing with what they done in the past and see what they tried to do here. It's like people complaining because of lack of music in the overworld while the game is literally called Breath of the Wild. IT'S THE POINT. Like i get there is opinions but ..... gotta think a little sometimes.



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I strongly agree with your first point, but am in disagreement with the third and fourth one.

1. Part of what made the initial exploration exciting was the obstacles of it. When those limitations vanish, the game begins to lose much of its appeal. I think that having the ability to effectively erase the obstacles should be more of an aspirational reward, similar to full 60 charge for the master sword when completing the trials; or perhaps as a BIG leap at the end of the upgrade chain. In my opinion, the removal of challenge in the harsh environments is a big miss for Breath of the Wild. I really enjoy the survival elements in the early game, and while I do like building experience and gradually making these less harsh from a simulation standpoint, I don't agree with negating the challenge entirely via armour so much as maintaining the challenge but easing back on it making it for a more comfortable and sustainable experience - with, as I said, complete negation being more of an aspiration reward for longterm play.

Of course, in practice, maybe they had it this way and playtesting found it got annoying, so perhaps changing what already exists might serve to ruin the game.  So I don't know the answer. I know Nintendo tested the crap out of this game for experience, and I only played the final product.

3. I find the combat to be exactly where I want it to be in terms of complexity. While it's simple, you can generally do A LOT more in Breath of the Wild than you can in the vast majority of games. Often adding complexity to battle systems, ironically, serves to increase the limits of what you can effectively do in combat as it tends to narrow the methods down of what you need to do to defeat the enemy. One of the best features of Breath of the Wild is that you can achieve great things while feeling like you're discovering a new way of doing them that isn't intended by the design. 

4. On story, I am in complete disagreement. I found it had by far the greatest story of the Zelda franchise and that it was past Zelda games that really struggled with story. In the older Zelda games, the story is limited to a very simplistic bare bones narrative that serves as little more as flavour text between dungeons with cliche conflicts. Instead, Breath of the Wild provides one of the most sprawling and engrossing emergent storytelling experiences I've ever seen in a game, and perhaps the first time I've ever seen this in any major console franchise.

2 and 5, are more or less just extra content and just about every game can be improved in these ways; but neither were an issue for me in Breath of the Wild, and I don't think significantly increasing the number of rewards or diversifying background art in temples would improve the game in any significant way. In terms of the size of the content in the shrines, I would enjoy the game less if they began making giant dungeons again - playing older Zelda games, I realize I don't really like the dungeons in any of the other 3D games. While some of the Shrines are similar to others, when it comes to the puzzles in the dungeons of older Zelda games, how many broke down to a series of just finding a hidden key or a switch? My big issue with the older Zelda games is it felt like WAY too much time is wasted in the big dungeons; the Divine beasts and Hyrule Castle was enough for large dungeons, the main attraction of Zelda games (for me) has always been the world, not the dungeons.

As for critics giving Breath of the Wild 10/10, it achieves so much that I couldn't imagine myself scoring it any lower. It might not be a 10/10 game in 2030, but in 2017 it most certainly was 10/10. Penalizing scores on the basis of what games could possibly achieve in the future just defeats the purpose of scoring games at all. Breath of the Wild was a substantial jump over all other action adventure games, and even makes great games like Witcher 3 look backwards/outdated in many ways (and that is still one of the best games available to this day), Witcher 3 was a 10 out of 10 in 2015, and Breatg of the Wild is a 10 out of 10 in 2017 (and I'd say it still is in 2020). Ocarina of Time, for example, was a 10/10 in 1998, but if it came out today, few would score it higher than 7 or 8.

Last edited by Jumpin - on 08 August 2020

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Finale said:

3- The combat is way too simple, and its also way too inconsequential.

As it is, botw is a very good game and maybe the best beta of all time. But that's all.

If I already suck hard in the current system battle I'm doomed if they try something more complex...

Agree with point 5, but disagree with points 4 and 2. It's personal, but the game is damn rewarding (it literally gives you rewards every time for small things) and the story is awesome

Point 1 is a bit... pointless I guess. Every armor was designed to solve a short-therm problem, after it was solved we can explore the region in "normal' conditions, if they haven't done this exploration in desert, mountains and snow areas would be really painful like it already is in raining areas 



Finale said:

The game doesn't have enough meaningful rewards. Look,i know to some people climbing by itself is satisfactory, and the way the land is made makes the game feel like a great fantasy adventure and whatever, but to me it is not enough. While you're going by in botw, the number of meaningful things to do, to me, is limited. You can either hunt korok seeds, look for a shrine or just go to the next story path. Most of the time you find something different or weird, it is related to those three things, and it just makes them feel less special. the korok puzzles often catch you off guard, but it also just mean that every time i see something weird in the overworld i already know what it is beforehand; just a korok seed puzzle. Sometimes you find old structures, like a maze or a fallen castle, but i also already know what they are; a path to a shrine that will give me something. It makes the world feel less special.

As i said before, i do understand it isn't like this to everyone. I know that to some people, simply being in the maze and finding your way is already enough as a reward, but i'm not like that. I do enjoy being in the maze, but knowing that its just the same shrine model that i see everyone in the overworld just makes me tired. It is an aesthetic problem i admit, but i dont think that makes it not important regardless. On that maze example, if the reward was the same( a piece of armor, if i'm not mistaken) but the location in which you get it is an old altar, or if there's an old warrior boss rooting in a deceased dungeon waiting for you, it makes it way more engaging. It tells you about the world, and it makes it more memorable. So i hope that they diversify in the sequel. Make some of the korok puzzles different things, with a different context; it makes all the difference. Don't tie every weapon/armor reward to a shrine, it just makes it feel less special.

Yeah, this is my big issue with the game too. I was so invested in exploring that world, it was a magical, adventurous feeling for a while, but it quickly started fading away the moment I began to realize every interesting-looking thing would turn out to be either a shrine or a korok seed. Even worse when I started to understand which ones would turn out to be a shrine, and which ones were a korok seed. Standardizing the rewards like that just eats away at any feeling of wonder and excitement. Not because the reward isn't worth it, but because you already know what it is - and finding out what things are is half the fun of exploring anyway.

I have other gripes too. I don't mind the combat system too much, besides a few changes I'd make such as making dodges and flurry rush less OP, but what I am really annoyed by is the lack of enemy variety and the bad enemy design (HP sponges). It got really boring when the tough late-game enemies were just a 5000 HP monster you had to waste all your arsenal on, by doing the same repetitive dodges and attacks you learn during the first 200 HP. Late-game enemies should be tough because they're difficult to battle against, not because they have a lot of HP.

About the story, I didn't mind the way it was handled in Breath of the Wild, although I was very disappointed about the ending, especially with the final boss being something straight out of Link's Crossbow Training. But, other than having a decent ending with a decent final boss, I would like to see a more in-depth story, with actual progression and stuff. Don't tell me the whole backstory within the first 4 hours of the game. Again, not something I particularly disliked about the BotW approach, just something I'd rather not see again in later games.



xMetroid said:
2- Well sometimes i do agree, but it's not always the case. You have side quests, visual landscape, puzzles, camps. The world feeling big was necessary so it needed to have points where there isn't necessary a reward other than just a beautiful sunset. Without empty places the game would be way too crowded. I feel like you guys don't really think about how it would be otherwise.

The problem isn't that there isn't enough to do, it's that what there is to do is very repetitive and becomes predictable. For me, it was always a memorable moment when I climbed a hill and there wasn't anything on top, no korok, no nothing. Those, I enjoyed and remember more than the other hundred hills I climbed that did have a korok seed on top. If the rewards you're getting for doing stuff are so repetitive that you'd find more enjoyment in not getting them, then there's something wrong with your rewards.

You mention sidequests... yeah, "bring me X random item and I'll give you 50 rupees". Nearly every sidequest in the game boiled down to that, it's not fun or rewarding, just padding.

You mention visual landscape... yeah, that's not exactly a reward, but it was the best stuff you could get.

Puzzles, all of them end up as a korok seed or shrine. So you already know what you're in for before even getting started, that's boring. Enemy camps aren't too bad, but they become more and more obsolete as you power up your weapons and armor. By the end of the game, fighting enemies only serves to waste weapons.

It's another issue of the game, really. You become too overpowered. I wanted to upgrade all my armor for completion's sake, but when I fought a Hinox and none of its attacks dealt more than 1/4 heart damage, all I had was regret. It made the game boring. Breath of the Wild was at its best in the Great Plateau and Eventide Island, I think that's quite telling of how poorly they balanced the mid/late game.



There should be rights in the streets over the Zelda series forced explanations of every item you first pick up. Press A for three pages about a thing you don’t want to know right now. And repeat. Grrrrr