Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why the SSD is a big deal for PS5, Series X.

padib said:
Hynad said:

The SSD in the PS5 isn’t the same identical tech as the SSDs you’ve been using in your PC.

it’s like saying “The Ford Mustang is old tech! Cars have been around forever now! I’ve been using my Model T for years! About time you youngsters catch up!”

The amount of tech that went on during the years separating the models and the tech that will make future cars more efficient didn’t stop at “here’s a piston engine"...

It is actually. I posted the proof a little earlier.

https://youtu.be/ph8LyNIT9sg?t=1244

Except you can't just put in any old SSD. 



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the-pi-guy said:

Except you can't just put in any old SSD. 

Of course, it needs to be the latest tech. But it's off the shelf!



padib said:
Hynad said:

The SSD in the PS5 isn’t the same identical tech as the SSDs you’ve been using in your PC.

it’s like saying “The Ford Mustang is old tech! Cars have been around forever now! I’ve been using my Model T for years! About time you youngsters catch up!”

The amount of tech that went on during the years separating the models and the tech that will make future cars more efficient didn’t stop at “here’s a piston engine"...

It is actually. I posted the proof a little earlier.

https://youtu.be/ph8LyNIT9sg?t=1244

Ok, but has PCIe 4.0 SSDs been available forever? No.

And how much do they cost for the same speed as the one found in the PS5? 

How was it viable to put one such drive in older console, as you said they should have, when the expected selling price of these consoles is supposed to be around 400 bucks? 

A quick look at the store and you have to pay around 200$ to find something comparable to what is found in the PS5.

Now, if you want to play on words, the hardware developed to support the SSD is a big deal. The use of SSDs in console will greatly affect how games are designed, as it removes one heck of a bottle neck that has been present ever since they moved from cartridges to discs.



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Hynad said:
padib said:

It is actually. I posted the proof a little earlier.

https://youtu.be/ph8LyNIT9sg?t=1244

Ok, but has PCIe 4.0 SSDs been available forever? No.

And how much do they cost for the same speed as the one found in the PS5? 

How was it viable to put one such drive in older console, as you said they should have, when the expected selling price of these consoles is supposed to be around 400 bucks? 

A quick look at the store and you have to pay around 200$ to find something comparable to what is found in the PS5.

Of course, it needs a bit more time to become cheaper. We also don't know how much the price tag is for Sony, so it's hard to debate on that point. But it's not a magic tech that doesn't yet exist, it is in the market. I was just replying to your point about Sony making a special custom SSD that is built for the PS5, but in truth other SSDs will work with the PS5 very well. Also, Sony has never really been known to be a leader in the development of SSDs, there are many manufacturers which have been doing it for years and they are leaders in the industry (Samsung, Sandisk, Kingston, etc.). It is even very likely that Sony has partnered with one to engineer the part.

Sony will also frontload the part cost, as their mass production of PS5s will allow them to amortize the costs over its lifecycle.

They may also sell the PS5 as a loss leader (like they did in the past), at least for a year or so after launch.

Last edited by padib - on 25 March 2020

padib said:
Hynad said:
Armchair hardware specialists talking out of their asses: the thread.

I couldn't care less about hardware capabilities of consoles. I always believed in the power of software.

All I want is to dispel myth, and I really only need an armchair to do it. And my ass loves the comfort.

Wanna join the losing spec war, or would you prefer just accept the obvious, that the XsX is more capable, and that in the end a handful of exclusive games will make use of it, that some folks will choose to buy the XsX for that, but that in the end, it's the library that matters?

It's the right position to take, because it is just right: it's correct.

That myth is? And I want an actual response, not these hit and run replies you've been feeding everyone else.

I have a career in this stuff, so I hope you make it interesting. I've read all of your replies in here and still haven't been given any indisputable reason why the NVMe in the PS5, that is the fastest in any consumer electronic to date, isn't a big deal in any sort of functional way (yes, that is what you're saying).

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 26 March 2020

                                                                                                             

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CGI-Quality said:
padib said:

I couldn't care less about hardware capabilities of consoles. I always believed in the power of software.

All I want is to dispel myth, and I really only need an armchair to do it. And my ass loves the comfort.

Wanna join the losing spec war, or would you prefer just accept the obvious, that the XsX is more capable, and that in the end a handful of exclusive games will make use of it, that some folks will choose to buy the XsX for that, but that in the end, it's the library that matters?

It's the right position to take, because it is just right: it's correct.

That myth is? And I want an actual response, not these hit and run replies you've been feeding everyone else.

I have a career in this stuff, so I hope you make it interesting. I've read all of your replies in here and still haven't been given any indisputable reason why the NVMe in the PS5, that is the fastest in any consumer electronic to date, isn't a big deal in any sort of functional way (yes, that is what you're saying).

Go what? I've already mentioned that it doesn't make a considerable difference at the scale we're talking about.

Also, why are you posting a gif of a monkey? We're supposed to be civilized, not tribal.

There's no hit and run here, I'm committed to this topic and I will stand my ground because my point of view is based on ideas I've built. If I have to win this debate with logic and reason, you better believe me that I will.



padib said:
CGI-Quality said:

That myth is? And I want an actual response, not these hit and run replies you've been feeding everyone else.

I have a career in this stuff, so I hope you make it interesting. I've read all of your replies in here and still haven't been given any indisputable reason why the NVMe in the PS5, that is the fastest in any consumer electronic to date, isn't a big deal in any sort of functional way (yes, that is what you're saying).

Go what? I've already mentioned that it doesn't make a considerable difference at the scale we're talking about.

Also, why are you posting a gif of a monkey? We're supposed to be civilized, not tribal.

Monkeys can be civilized and humans can be tribal. Moot point.

As for the 'go what', no, your explanation leaves plenty of questions and the professionals have already answered them. It will make a considerable difference. I was hoping you gave me a little more, but bah. Guess not.

Only advice I can offer? Look for the results in under a year!



                                                                                                             

CGI-Quality said:
padib said:

Go what? I've already mentioned that it doesn't make a considerable difference at the scale we're talking about.

Also, why are you posting a gif of a monkey? We're supposed to be civilized, not tribal.

Monkeys can be civilized and humans can be tribal. Moot point.

As for the 'go what', no, your explanation leaves plenty of questions and the professionals have already answered them. It will make a considerable difference. I was hoping you gave me a little more, but bah. Guess not.

Only advice I can offer? Look for the results in under a year!

Monkeys are animals, and humans can be like monkeys sometimes, that is very true.

CGI, do you know what the specs are of the SSD in the XsX?

I've got my gloves on, say what your point is because I've already given all of mine.

From the techradar article, again: https://www.techradar.com/news/ps5-vs-xbox-series-x

"[PS5] will be able to run content (if not games) at an 8K resolution, and it will also support 120Hz refresh rates at 4K. The Xbox Series X will match the PS5 by offering DirectX ray-tracing capabilities, and it’ll have a super-fast internal NVMe SSD (which can be expanded with a propriety NVMe card), and can be utilised as virtual RAM to lift load times by up to 40x. "

What is it that I have said that you disagree with?



padib said:
CGI-Quality said:

~ snip

Monkeys are animals, and humans can be like monkeys sometimes, that is very true.

CGI, do you know what the specs are of the SSD in the XsX?

I've got my gloves on, say what your point is because I've already given all of mine.

From the techradar article, again: https://www.techradar.com/news/ps5-vs-xbox-series-x

"[PS5] will be able to run content (if not games) at an 8K resolution, and it will also support 120Hz refresh rates at 4K. The Xbox Series X will match the PS5 by offering DirectX ray-tracing capabilities, and it’ll have a super-fast internal NVMe SSD (which can be expanded with a propriety NVMe card), and can be utilised as virtual RAM to lift load times by up to 40x. "

What is it that I have said that you disagree with?

You can keep your gloves on, because to be perfectly honest, this isn't a field you want to argue with me in the way that you are, Padib.

Now, what you posted is general, not specific. Why should anyone listen to you when those who understand the meat of this stuff say otherwise? You're riding the same ride at the carnival over and over again hoping it will change along the way. Newsflash: it won't. My point? You're wrong, as, again, per the individuals who know how this stuff works who bitch slap what you're saying in here. 

A better question is why are you so hellbent on there being "no considerable difference"?



                                                                                                             

the-pi-guy said:
padib said:

You can't truly believe that. GPUs and CPUs are much more complex than SSD technology.

The I/O system with the PS5's SSD is literally running a CPU that's better than the main system's CPU.  

Well. Not entirely true.
The fixed logic in the I/O optimizes that part of the SoC for those tasks specifically like compression/decompression, that doesn't mean that it would be better at other tasks... Otherwise Sony might as well just copy and paste the SSD controller 8x times rather than use an 8-core Ryzen CPU.

The Ryzen CPU is good at a wide plethora of tasks, unlike the I/O controller.

It's why we don't use a GPU with 10's of teraflops worth of performance to replace a CPU with only 100's of Gflops of performance... Because GPU's are amazing at highly parallel workloads with relatively "simple" code branches.

Where-as a CPU is really good at serialized workloads with lots of intricate branches.

And the I/O controller is good at moving large amounts of data around whilst performing predictable compression/decompression duties.

kirby007 said:
its quite simple if the SSD is so superior they would have cut the CPU out and went with with SSD only,
frankly im going with what star citizen gets as results

StarCitizen is the only real-world example we have right now of what benefits an SSD brings.

In saying that, StarCitizen doesn't really showcase much difference between an SSD with 1.5GB/s of bandwidth or an SSD with 4.5GB/s of bandwidth, for that we need to see what the next few years worth of video games bring to the example table.

the-pi-guy said:

Considering most consoles and PCs have HDDs, games can't be designed to take advantage of SSDs.  

There's pretty much only one game that really needs an SSD.  That might change with both consoles having SSD as being a mandatory part.  

Most gaming PC's have SSD's for at-least the OS.

padib said:

I'll just make my point of view clear: the SSD is not a big deal.

We should wait for the games before we decide that...

Hynad said:

The SSD in the PS5 is a big deal. It will complement the rest of the PS5’s specs exceptionally well. It will make the PS5 a faster console overall than the XBSX when it comes to the user experience (having to wait for anything).

The two big tech features will be Ray Tracing and the SSD.

We don't yet know what extent the Xbox Series X or the Playstation 5 have thrown their support behind the Ray Tracing technology just yet.

The Xbox Series X has the rasterization advantage without a doubt and the Playstation 5 has the Storage advantage, they will both showcase advantages in exclusives and multiplats to varying degrees, to downplay either I think is a disservice to the engineering Microsoft, Sony and AMD have done here on both devices.

padib said:

Why did Cerny make a whole video explaining the SSD? Is it possible that, perhaps, Sony needs to do some PR to make sure people feel like the PS5 has some kind of edge when it really doesn't?

I don't take much credit in what Cerny or Spencer says... Or any official from either company for that matter, part of their job description is to talk-up their product lines in order to accrue sales.

Outlets like Digital Foundry and Anandtech are more credible from a non-biased perspective, that doesn't mean Cerny or Spencer is incorrect, they just have a conflict of interest, so I take their opinions with a grain of salt.

Hynad said:

The SSD in the PS5 isn’t the same identical tech as the SSDs you’ve been using in your PC.

It's also not radically different in concept either.
It still relies on the exact same NAND a PC SSD uses... Heck, even what a Phone or Tablet uses. - The work done is on the controller side of the equation and taking advantage of the parallel nature of memory transactions, for that Sony deserves praise.

Hynad said:

Ok, but has PCIe 4.0 SSDs been available forever? No.

And how much do they cost for the same speed as the one found in the PS5? 

How was it viable to put one such drive in older console, as you said they should have, when the expected selling price of these consoles is supposed to be around 400 bucks? 

A quick look at the store and you have to pay around 200$ to find something comparable to what is found in the PS5.

Now, if you want to play on words, the hardware developed to support the SSD is a big deal. The use of SSDs in console will greatly affect how games are designed, as it removes one heck of a bottle neck that has been present ever since they moved from cartridges to discs.

PC can take a multitude of different approaches, it's not limited by form factor, cost or power consumption.

PCI-E 1.0 SSD's in a wide-enough RAID array can beat the PCI-E 4.0 SSD in the Playstation 5... And unlike the Playstation 5, the PC isn't limited to 825GB of storage either.

And the PC can also take it in the opposite direction, it has smaller, cheaper SSD's than the Playstation 5.



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