By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Let's talk about Specs

 

You like Specs?

I love Specs! 16 40.00%
 
I kinda like Specs. 13 32.50%
 
Specs are for nerds! 2 5.00%
 
I don't care either way, ... 9 22.50%
 
Total:40
drkohler said:
These posts get longer and longer to digest with all the quoting.
So I ask everyone for just one thing:

Some people think that 2.23GHz is a boost clock and the thing actually runs at a lower clock some/most of the time. It is NOT.
When Cerny mentioned boost in his talk, he meant it in the engineering sense of the word. What they did when testing the SoC, they started with a low frequency and upped the frequency step by step until the gpu was no longer able to function correctly (My guess is a lot of SoCs bit the dust). This gave them the absolute upper clock limit. Then they did the same thing again up to a point where the thermal/power envelope was reached with whatever cooling solutions were tested. Apparently 2.23GHz is the "sweet spot" for the gpu. (Surprisingly the 3.5GHz for the cpu is already problematic due to a particular 256bit command set that needs large amounts of power.)
Stepping up the clock is called boosting the clock in the engineering world. It has nothing to do with "This thing runs at x GHz but we can boost x by y%".

Nope. Not correct.
Cerny specifically mentioned SmartShift.

The GPU boost clock can certainly be run at 2.23Ghz... Indefinitely. Provided the rest of the system isn't taxed to 100%.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15624/amd-details-renoir-the-ryzen-mobile-4000-series-7nm-apu-uncovered/4

Otherwise it's not a boost, it's a base clock and a failure on Sony's behalf in advertising that particular aspect.

DonFerrari said:

Can't say the audio on PS4 is worse than PS3, but Cerny was clear that they pushed less for audio on PS4 than on PS3 but at PS5 tempest engine they came full on it. He also said that tempest engine is designed similar to SPE (without cache, dump direct on it) so that may be where he understood that the audio on PS3 was better.

And about very few of the data being duplicated that also contradict what Cerny said. He explained that is the reason why even some small patches had to reinstall the whole game, and that because the HDD was slow several of the assets had duplication and that with SSD the file sizes should be a lot smaller.

The DSP in the Playstation 4 is based upon AMD's TrueAudio technology, it's a step-up over the PS3's implementation.
Just wanted him to provide the evidence for his claim.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/ps4-spec-update-audio-dsp-is-based-on-amds-trueaudio

Patches forcing entire reinstalls of games happens on PC, mostly because enough of the underlaying dataset got changed that you might as well discard the old, for the new.

DonFerrari said:

PC instalation size doesn't disprove it since PC ports are developed to address HDD configurations as default.

And the Playstation 4, Xbox One, Playstation 3, OG Xbox, Xbox 360 games aren't!?!?

DonFerrari said:

Pema is the most vocal user on saying Tflops is an useless measure and that even on same architeture you can have lesser Tflop outperform higher because of other aspects of the card. So I guess you aren't understanding his point that Tflop is a direct theoretical maximum that always means the same (so 1 Tflop is always 1 Tflop, instead of a AMD Tflop is 0,6 NVidia Tflop or anything the like) but of course the real world perfomance will vary greatly and that is the gain in efficiency every gen see.

Pretty much... Haha
He is backtracking on his statements now, so nothing to see here.

LudicrousSpeed said:

So you get a performance drop for intense games, whether it’s the CPU for games that heavily utilize the GPU or an actual TFLOP drop for games that utilize the CPU because the GPU needs to be throttled down. You can bicker about exact numbers even though Sony provided none, the person I quoted and myself have the correct understanding of what Cerny was saying.

It remains to be seen how often the system can actually run at full power. Logic would dictate not often, otherwise there would be no need for a boost mode and variable frequencies. Remember this is the same guy who said like 8TF would be required for native 4K. It’s not like he’s infallible.

People smarter or at least more knowledgeable than us on this have said that if MS used the same method of varying frequencies, the XSX could get to like 14.6 TF. They aren’t, because it’s not smart. Sony will either have a very good, very expensive cooking solution in the PS5, or the console will not run at the max frequencies often.

It can maintain 2.23Ghz GPU clocks indefinitely, provided that developers have opted not to peg the CPU and I/O at 100%.

Anyone who has played around with a Ryzen notebooks understands this...

Basically the Ryzen notebooks have a 15w TDP. - In an ideal world the CPU and GPU will be given equal split if pegged at 100%. That is 7.5w each.

But if you reduce the CPU demand by 50% by reducing clockrates (which in turn reduces voltages), then you are reducing the CPU's 7.5W TDP to 5W, which means the GPU can increase it's TDP demands from 7.5W to 10W. - Then the GPU can drive up it's clockrates.

That can mean the clockspeed difference of 900Mhz to 1.2GHz.

And it can maintain that indefinitely. - But once you start increasing the CPU load, the CPU is going to want to take some of the GPU's TDP.

Either way, developers will have all of that in mind when building games.

VAMatt said:

Unfortunately, the relative cost of RAM is higher now than it was up until a few years ago.  Taking these systems up to 24gb would make a noticeable difference in production costs.  So, they've had to figure out how to make do with less (than we might prefer). 

GDDR6 is relatively new, hence the costs. Which is why me and CGI made accurate predictions on this front years in advance.





--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Around the Network
Pemalite said:
drkohler said:
These posts get longer and longer to digest with all the quoting.
So I ask everyone for just one thing:

Some people think that 2.23GHz is a boost clock and the thing actually runs at a lower clock some/most of the time. It is NOT.
When Cerny mentioned boost in his talk, he meant it in the engineering sense of the word. What they did when testing the SoC, they started with a low frequency and upped the frequency step by step until the gpu was no longer able to function correctly (My guess is a lot of SoCs bit the dust). This gave them the absolute upper clock limit. Then they did the same thing again up to a point where the thermal/power envelope was reached with whatever cooling solutions were tested. Apparently 2.23GHz is the "sweet spot" for the gpu. (Surprisingly the 3.5GHz for the cpu is already problematic due to a particular 256bit command set that needs large amounts of power.)
Stepping up the clock is called boosting the clock in the engineering world. It has nothing to do with "This thing runs at x GHz but we can boost x by y%".

Nope. Not correct.
Cerny specifically mentioned SmartShift.

The GPU boost clock can certainly be run at 2.23Ghz... Indefinitely. Provided the rest of the system isn't taxed to 100%.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15624/amd-details-renoir-the-ryzen-mobile-4000-series-7nm-apu-uncovered/4

Otherwise it's not a boost, it's a base clock and a failure on Sony's behalf in advertising that particular aspect.

DonFerrari said:

Can't say the audio on PS4 is worse than PS3, but Cerny was clear that they pushed less for audio on PS4 than on PS3 but at PS5 tempest engine they came full on it. He also said that tempest engine is designed similar to SPE (without cache, dump direct on it) so that may be where he understood that the audio on PS3 was better.

And about very few of the data being duplicated that also contradict what Cerny said. He explained that is the reason why even some small patches had to reinstall the whole game, and that because the HDD was slow several of the assets had duplication and that with SSD the file sizes should be a lot smaller.

The DSP in the Playstation 4 is based upon AMD's TrueAudio technology, it's a step-up over the PS3's implementation.
Just wanted him to provide the evidence for his claim.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/ps4-spec-update-audio-dsp-is-based-on-amds-trueaudio

Patches forcing entire reinstalls of games happens on PC, mostly because enough of the underlaying dataset got changed that you might as well discard the old, for the new.

DonFerrari said:

PC instalation size doesn't disprove it since PC ports are developed to address HDD configurations as default.

And the Playstation 4, Xbox One, Playstation 3, OG Xbox, Xbox 360 games aren't!?!?

DonFerrari said:

Pema is the most vocal user on saying Tflops is an useless measure and that even on same architeture you can have lesser Tflop outperform higher because of other aspects of the card. So I guess you aren't understanding his point that Tflop is a direct theoretical maximum that always means the same (so 1 Tflop is always 1 Tflop, instead of a AMD Tflop is 0,6 NVidia Tflop or anything the like) but of course the real world perfomance will vary greatly and that is the gain in efficiency every gen see.

Pretty much... Haha
He is backtracking on his statements now, so nothing to see here.

LudicrousSpeed said:

So you get a performance drop for intense games, whether it’s the CPU for games that heavily utilize the GPU or an actual TFLOP drop for games that utilize the CPU because the GPU needs to be throttled down. You can bicker about exact numbers even though Sony provided none, the person I quoted and myself have the correct understanding of what Cerny was saying.

It remains to be seen how often the system can actually run at full power. Logic would dictate not often, otherwise there would be no need for a boost mode and variable frequencies. Remember this is the same guy who said like 8TF would be required for native 4K. It’s not like he’s infallible.

People smarter or at least more knowledgeable than us on this have said that if MS used the same method of varying frequencies, the XSX could get to like 14.6 TF. They aren’t, because it’s not smart. Sony will either have a very good, very expensive cooking solution in the PS5, or the console will not run at the max frequencies often.

It can maintain 2.23Ghz GPU clocks indefinitely, provided that developers have opted not to peg the CPU and I/O at 100%.

Anyone who has played around with a Ryzen notebooks understands this...

Basically the Ryzen notebooks have a 15w TDP. - In an ideal world the CPU and GPU will be given equal split if pegged at 100%. That is 7.5w each.

But if you reduce the CPU demand by 50% by reducing clockrates (which in turn reduces voltages), then you are reducing the CPU's 7.5W TDP to 5W, which means the GPU can increase it's TDP demands from 7.5W to 10W. - Then the GPU can drive up it's clockrates.

That can mean the clockspeed difference of 900Mhz to 1.2GHz.

And it can maintain that indefinitely. - But once you start increasing the CPU load, the CPU is going to want to take some of the GPU's TDP.

Either way, developers will have all of that in mind when building games.

VAMatt said:

Unfortunately, the relative cost of RAM is higher now than it was up until a few years ago.  Taking these systems up to 24gb would make a noticeable difference in production costs.  So, they've had to figure out how to make do with less (than we might prefer). 

GDDR6 is relatively new, hence the costs. Which is why me and CGI made accurate predictions on this front years in advance.



Didn't know it would be so common for a let's say 100Mb patch needing to reconstruct the entire file structure so basically needing to "reinstall the game". But well I'm not expert on it.

But I keep the part Cerny said in the wired interview and GDC video that files size were much bigger than necessary due to extensive duplication. Not sure where the mention to other systems came from, it was obvious they have HDD and duplicates. You mentioned PCs install size as evidence of not needing duplication due to speed of HDD, and I just pointed that on PC they are developed with the lower denominator in mind so they would also do duplication because of it.

About PS4 audio being superior to PS3 I wouldn't know as it wasn't something Sony was very vocal about and on PS3 I already had access to dolby, 7.1, etc and didn't really notice an increase on the sound quality but I believe in you if you have researched the subject. My point on it is that now Sony decided to reinforce their focus on inproving the audio (and per what you said MS also, but not the same type of tech is it?);



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Variable frequency means precise that. It will be variable, it will not be maintained at top speed. Power (voltage) is what is gonna be maintained. That way unused voltage from cpu can be transfered to the gpu to make the boost when is needed.

Mark Cerny's PS5 Presentation (35:54)
"...We run at essentially at constant power and let the frequency band "vary" based on the workload"

Mark Cerny's PS5 Presentation (36:47)
"...We look at the activites cpu/gpu are performing and set the frequencies on that basis..."

Last edited by alexxonne - on 21 March 2020

Shadow1980 said:
trunkswd said:

The latest we will be waiting for Xbox Series X gameplay and games is June when E3 was supposed to take place. Microsoft plans an all digital event. 

I know. I just hope it's no later than when E3 was supposed to be. This has been the longest wait for any real information for a Halo game, measured by how many months until release. We already had information on and footage or screenshots of gameplay at this point for every Halo game by this point, but we've had no real information about the how the game plays other than the return of split-screen. Plus by time Infinite releases it'll have been five years since Halo 5. Somebody who was in seventh grade when Halo 5 came out will be a senior in high school when Infinite comes out. That's a long wait, and I crave info.

DonFerrari said:

What better way to evolve combat than using the mechanics from the first?

Not necessarily, but I do think that if you take the wrong path, you need to backtrack and try a different path. Halo 5's "Spartan abilities" mechanics simply didn't feel like Halo to me. Infinite sprint, rapid dodges with a thruster pack, high-impact charging melees, and so on were core attributes of the player character. It was simply too fast-paced and twitchy, and was also a more maximalist "look at everything you can do!" approach. It had significant impacts on things like weapon balance and level design. Spartans were always "walking tanks," but in Halo 5 they're more like fighter jets than tanks. And I didn't like it. I've tried to give Halo 5's multiplayer a chance, but I hardly touch it anymore (since the start of September 2019, I've played only 33 matches in Arena). Once the MCC got fixed, I default to that now. I've played more MCC in the past week than I have for Halo 5 in the past six months. Halo has a certain "feel" to it that Halo 5 completely overturned. Halo 2 Anniversary multiplayer is to me probably the best Halo has played in a long time.

Some recent games have seen the developers make conscious efforts to go back to the series' roots, often times while still finding ways to change things up. RE7 went back to more traditional survivor horror, but moved the perspective to first-person. Doom 2016 went back to a more classic-style fast-paced gameplay centered around killing demons with big guns and moving really fast, but still added new mechanics that meshed well with the traditional. Super Mario Odyssey moved back towards a more Mario 64-esque approach for level design and core 3D platforming after two Galaxy games and the 3D World/Land games, but still added new mechanics (namely Cappy and his associated abilities) that meshed well with old-school 3D Mario platforming.

What I'd like to see in Infinite is a similar "return to the roots" approach to the core mechanics, while finding new ways to innovate that don't drastically overhaul the core formula.

With Halo 5, 343I decided to focus on changing the base abilities of the player character, but in older games the innovations almost always revolved around some sort of sandbox element external to the player, either with new weapons, vehicles, and gadgets or some new form of interaction with those things. In Halo CE, there was the simple but effective and innovative "golden tripod" of guns, grenades, and melees. In Halo 2 & 3, they added new mechanics that revolved around elements in the sandbox, such as vehicle boarding, dual wielding, single-use deployable equipment, and detachable turrets. They weren't base abilities (i.e., core abilities usable at any time with a press of a button, like a melee attack or jumping), but rather abilities centered around interactions with things external to the player character. Armor abilities, introduced in Reach and carried over into Halo 4 (with some slight changes), were often treated as base abilities (and sprint did become a base ability in Halo 4), but weren't necessarily so, and only a handful of them (sprint in Reach, thruster strafe in Halo 4, and jetpack in both) affected mobility. For one, you were limited to one ability at a time, so maps had to be designed to function well if nobody has sprint, or if nobody has a jetpack. Furthermore, in campaign you found modules to equip to use an armor ability, and even in Reach's multiplayer you could add those modules to the map in Forge instead of having players spawn with an ability. So, while you normally spawns with an AA in Reach and Halo 4, they were functionally more like reusable versions of Halo 3's equipment. And while Halo 5 did focus more on changing the core attributes of the player character, it did have one gameplay change I liked that was an interaction with the sandbox, and that was seat switching in vehicles.

Infinite should innovate along similar lines to those older Halo games, namely through new sandbox elements and interactions with them, such as interesting new weapons or disposable gadgets, or dynamic map elements. They should innovate through AI design. They should innovate through level design and new play modes. But the core abilities should preferably stick to "walk," "jump," "crouch," "shoot," "punch," and "throw grenades," with the combat in general having the slower, more methodical approach of earlier titles instead of the fast-paced twitchy approach of Halo 5.

YouTuber Favyn did a more in-depth video on this subject a couple of years ago if you want to watch it:

Hey man don't worry, I was just making a joke because the name of the first is "combat evolve", hence the best way to evolve the combat mechanics was redoing the first one =]



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

My only question now is, what will the performance be like for XSX for games that require more than 10GB of Vram. The only situation on PC that I remember where something similarish happening was with the 970. That GPU had 3.5GB of Vram at 196GB/s and 512MB of Vram at 28GB/s. Now this is clearly not an apples to apples comparison since the 970 has a much more of a drastic difference in Vram memory bandwidth and 10GB is faster than ps5's 16GB. But when pushed to the limit against the 980 which had 4GB of Vram at 224GB/s and games used more than 3.5GB. There were some issues with the 970.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtWL3D9ZL3Q

I wonder if there will be any issues with the XSX or if it's not gonna matter at all since the lower memory bandwidth after the initial 10GB isn't nearly as bad.



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

Around the Network
Captain_Yuri said:
My only question now is, what will the performance be like for XSX for games that require more than 10GB of Vram. The only situation on PC that I remember where something similarish happening was with the 970. That GPU had 3.5GB of Vram at 196GB/s and 512MB of Vram at 28GB/s. Now this is clearly not an apples to apples comparison since the 970 has a much more of a drastic difference in Vram memory bandwidth and 10GB is faster than ps5's 16GB. But when pushed to the limit against the 980 which had 4GB of Vram at 224GB/s and games used more than 3.5GB. There were some issues with the 970.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtWL3D9ZL3Q

I wonder if there will be any issues with the XSX or if it's not gonna matter at all since the lower memory bandwidth after the initial 10GB isn't nearly as bad.

My guess is that both systems will perform very similar. Each approach has its pros and cons. Both are limited to 16 GB of system memory, so a lot will depend on the OS and how it manages the system resources. At 4K60 I see no problems at the start of the next generation, but gradually the memory for both systems will be a bottleneck for higher demanding games. And the rest will be determined by the programing and code optimization each developer has for each system. At the time that occurs enhanced systems will appear(2023+) , rendering the initial game systems irrelevant.

------------------------------------------

XBox One SX / Memory: 10 GB @560GB/s (20% faster than ps5) + 6 GB @336 GB/s. (25% slower than ps5)

Overall Performance : 7,616GB  (10 x 560 GB/s + 6  x 336 GB/s / 16)

Pros Cons

- Higher memory bandwidth

- 20% faster processing of resources allocations (textures, maps, etc)

- Dedicated memory pool for OS and less demanding tasks.

- Better overall performance as a whole.

- Segmented memory pool

- Harder to program (Must choose which pool will allocate resources and tasks)

- Limited Fast Memory pool (10/16)

- 25% slower memory for OS

------------------------------------------

PS5 / Memory: 16GB @448GB/s (20% slower than Xbox SX) 

Overall Performance : 7,168GB  (16 x 448 GB/s)

Pros Cons

- Unified memory pool (not segmented)

- Easier to program (same bandwidth for everything)

- OS memory will run faster (25%)

- Lower memory bandwidth

- 20% Slower Processing of resources allocations (textures, maps, etc)

- Slower overall performance



Captain_Yuri said:
My only question now is, what will the performance be like for XSX for games that require more than 10GB of Vram. The only situation on PC that I remember where something similarish happening was with the 970. That GPU had 3.5GB of Vram at 196GB/s and 512MB of Vram at 28GB/s. Now this is clearly not an apples to apples comparison since the 970 has a much more of a drastic difference in Vram memory bandwidth and 10GB is faster than ps5's 16GB. But when pushed to the limit against the 980 which had 4GB of Vram at 224GB/s and games used more than 3.5GB. There were some issues with the 970.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtWL3D9ZL3Q

I wonder if there will be any issues with the XSX or if it's not gonna matter at all since the lower memory bandwidth after the initial 10GB isn't nearly as bad.

The difference between the Geforce GTX 970 and the Xbox Series X... Is that the Geforce GTX 970 was using all of that VRAM for graphics duties, that will not be happening with the Xbox Series X.

alexxonne said:

XBox One SX / Memory: 10 GB @560GB/s (20% faster than ps5) + 6 GB @336 GB/s. (25% slower than ps5)

Overall Performance : 7,616GB  (10 x 560 GB/s + 6  x 336 GB/s / 16)

------------------------------------------

PS5 / Memory: 16GB @448GB/s (20% slower than Xbox SX) 

Overall Performance : 7,168GB  (16 x 448 GB/s)


The "Overall Performance" is a bit weird. But okay.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

I think the PS5 is going to be awesome with tons of incredible games but there's no sidestepping the fact that the Series X is more powerful hardware.... Fact.....