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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Rumor: Xbox "Lockhart" specs leaked, is $300

shikamaru317 said:
Otter said:

I wouldn't pay much attention to this at all, MS and Sony have no say. + Microsoft said they consider upscalling 4k as well. All of this will boil down to developers and history is likely to repeat itself, especially with 3rd Parties. Games which target native 4k/60fps will not look as good as games that target 1440p/30fps, so naturally many devs will carefully decide whats more important to the end user.

Games which are not competitive or heavy reflex based will put graphical immersion over 60fps. Open world games will put environmental detail and density over resolution.

Ironically even Microsofts Hellblade 2 Tech showcase was 30fps and sub 4k.

Microsoft intended Xbox One as a 1080p machine but you can probably count the 3rd parties titles that hit 1080p on one hand. 

I'm not so sure about that. Sony encouraged devs to aim for 1440p or higher with checkerboarding on PS4 Pro, and most devs did so. Some games are less than 1440p onPS4 Pro, but alot achieved Sony's target. Xbox One X by comparison, MS was simply encouraging devs to aim as high as possible I think, and most games are 1800p or 4K on XB1 X, only a few are lower than 1800p. I think that most devs will aim for 4K on Series X, even if some choose to go with 30 fps to push graphics further. PS5 is another matter, we still don't know it's specs, if it is 9-10 tflop like some rumors suggest, 3rd party devs will likely aim for 1800p or a bit above on PS5 compared to 2160p on Series X because it is easier to scale back resolution than graphical effects.

You also have to remember that 8K tv's are already a thing and will be becoming more and more common throughout the gen, which will likely end around 2027 or 2028. It's going to look bad marketing wise if 8K tv's are a thing and their consoles aren't even hitting native 4K on most games. I think that Sony and MS will strongly encourage devs to aim for native 4K on PS5 and Series X, so that their mid-gen refresh consoles can aim for higher than 4K so that they can market them as 8K consoles, even if in reality they'll probably be much lower resolution scaled up to 8K. 

This isn't because Sony and MS encouraged it, its because the PS4's GPU is over 2x that of the PS4 and Xbox One X's is 4x that of the XboxOneS.

Developers are currently building games for PS4 and Xbox One, the pro consoles are not base development systems where graphic benchmarks are decided, they exist purely to produce higher resolutions output for games built around much weaker specs.

Next Gen systems however will eventually become base systems, developers will start at zero and decide how they want their games to look and run on them. For sure there will be 4k games and maybe Microsoft might mandate 4k on X1X for first parties if they go ahead with a cheap entry system but most developers have to decide whether they want to use a substantial portion of the compute power to render a resolution which most people won't notice much or will they produce a better looking game at half the pixel count which more realistically reflects their vision and is still crystal clear on any display, something everyone will notice regardless of how big their TV is, how far they sit away from it or whether its 4k or 1080p. 


In the end we will just have to wait and see but here are just a few examples of the graphical and physics leaps developers would want to put before native 4k/60fps.

And don't even get me started on 8k TVs, consumers don't care and neither do game developers. It will be a tick a box and nothing more for the rest of the decade.



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Personally, I don’t see the point in having a lower end console like this if they already have the XB1X, and plan to keep putting games on last gen hardware for the next couple years anyways. Probably be smarter to just cut the price of X and develop on that as the lower end console, if they absolutely need a lower end.

As far as how this will effect sales, we know now that XB1 family of consoles is at 42 - 43 million total, even with XB1 being cheaper than the PS4 for quite some time now. With MS emphasizing subscription fees and moving further way from their own hardware, I don’t see this lower end XS console having much of an impact, especially if it’s digital only.



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DialgaMarine said:
Personally, I don’t see the point in having a lower end console like this if they already have the XB1X, and plan to keep putting games on last gen hardware for the next couple years anyways. Probably be smarter to just cut the price of X and develop on that as the lower end console, if they absolutely need a lower end.

As far as how this will effect sales, we know now that XB1 family of consoles is at 42 - 43 million total, even with XB1 being cheaper than the PS4 for quite some time now. With MS emphasizing subscription fees and moving further way from their own hardware, I don’t see this lower end XS console having much of an impact, especially if it’s digital only.

I can't for my life undertand the point of acting as if a super niche hardware revision is an actual console with dozens of millions sold.



Nu-13 said:
DialgaMarine said:
Personally, I don’t see the point in having a lower end console like this if they already have the XB1X, and plan to keep putting games on last gen hardware for the next couple years anyways. Probably be smarter to just cut the price of X and develop on that as the lower end console, if they absolutely need a lower end.

As far as how this will effect sales, we know now that XB1 family of consoles is at 42 - 43 million total, even with XB1 being cheaper than the PS4 for quite some time now. With MS emphasizing subscription fees and moving further way from their own hardware, I don’t see this lower end XS console having much of an impact, especially if it’s digital only.

I can't for my life undertand the point of acting as if a super niche hardware revision is an actual console with dozens of millions sold.

I’m confused. What do you mean? 



0331 Happiness is a belt-fed weapon

DialgaMarine said:
Personally, I don’t see the point in having a lower end console like this if they already have the XB1X, and plan to keep putting games on last gen hardware for the next couple years anyways. Probably be smarter to just cut the price of X and develop on that as the lower end console, if they absolutely need a lower end.

The point is that a XSS (Xbox Series S) is probably cheaper to produce than a X1X (Xbox One X) while being at least as fast as the X1X and avoiding some bottlenecks (CPU, RAM, loading times).



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Nu-13 said:
DialgaMarine said:
Personally, I don’t see the point in having a lower end console like this if they already have the XB1X, and plan to keep putting games on last gen hardware for the next couple years anyways. Probably be smarter to just cut the price of X and develop on that as the lower end console, if they absolutely need a lower end.

As far as how this will effect sales, we know now that XB1 family of consoles is at 42 - 43 million total, even with XB1 being cheaper than the PS4 for quite some time now. With MS emphasizing subscription fees and moving further way from their own hardware, I don’t see this lower end XS console having much of an impact, especially if it’s digital only.

I can't for my life undertand the point of acting as if a super niche hardware revision is an actual console with dozens of millions sold.

With Microsoft and most third parties likely committed to cross gen for at least 24months, I think Microsoft will have a hard time distinguishing Xbox Series S from X1X. When support for current gen is dropped it'll be much easier but since MS have already said that won't happen for 2 years after Series X launches, so it feels like they should just let those on a budget continue to game on Xbox One or upgrade to Xbox One X which is already $299.



shikamaru317 said:
Otter said:

This isn't because Sony and MS encouraged it, its because the PS4's GPU is over 2x that of the PS4 and Xbox One X's is 4x that of the XboxOneS.

Developers are currently building games for PS4 and Xbox One, the pro consoles are not base development systems where graphic benchmarks are decided, they exist purely to produce higher resolutions output for games built around much weaker specs.

Next Gen systems however will eventually become base systems, developers will start at zero and decide how they want their games to look and run on them. For sure there will be 4k games and maybe Microsoft might mandate 4k on X1X for first parties if they go ahead with a cheap entry system but most developers have to decide whether they want to use a substantial portion of the compute power to render a resolution which most people won't notice much or will they produce a better looking game at half the pixel count which more realistically reflects their vision and is still crystal clear on any display, something everyone will notice regardless of how big their TV is, how far they sit away from it or whether its 4k or 1080p. 


In the end we will just have to wait and see but here are just a few examples of the graphical and physics leaps developers would want to put before native 4k/60fps.

And don't even get me started on 8k TVs, consumers don't care and neither do game developers. It will be a tick a box and nothing more for the rest of the decade.

Yes, and if Microsoft goes through with releasing Lockhart with a 4 tflop RDNA 2 GPU, the new baseline will be Xbox Series S/Lockhart once last gen support is dropped, a console with at least 4x the graphical and CPU power of the old baseline, base Xbox One (plus a huge storage speed improvement). It makes sense for devs to use that extra 4x power to improve graphics at 1080p compared to this gen, then scale up to 4K on PS5 and Xbox Series X. Some developers may choose to develop first for PS5 and XSX and then scale down for XSS, but most are probably going to do the opposite, because scaling up is easier than scaling down. In other words, most next-gen 3rd party games will probably be 4K on Xbox Series X and PS5. 

The focus will eventually shift to 8K, likely by the end of the gen. 8K tv prices are already down to where 4K prices were just a few years ago. MS and Sony won't be able to resist marketing their mid-gen refresh consoles as 8K (hell, MS and Sony are already marketing Series X and PS5 as 8K consoles even though the concept of any games actually being native 8K, or anything higher than native 4K on them is utterly ridiculous).

2 scenarios imo.

1) This happens and it slows the generation in terms of ambition which would be a shame. 

2) Series S is treated like an after thoughts and receives bad ports. We've already seen this with many Xbox One S games run poorly, very few third party titles reach 1080p (PS4 is seen as the target there), some are 720p like Red Dead 2 and Star Wars and many have notable performance/fps issues. Imagine this but even worse since 2 superior alternatives will be available from day one.

Both scenarios are completely avoidable. Don't release a console less than half the GPU power of your nearest and presently more popular competitor.

Also assuming the arrival of 8k TVs means 8k gaming is like assuming 120fps refresh means games are going to target 120fps in AAA games. Its not going to happen because the average person does not care or notice the difference, its a complete waste of resources. PS5 and Xbox Series X are already being marketed with 8k capabilities. They will upscale but nothing more. I imagine If mid-gen refreshes happen, the focus will be improved raytracing capbilities & more SSD space.

Last edited by Otter - on 08 March 2020

Otter said:
Nu-13 said:

I can't for my life undertand the point of acting as if a super niche hardware revision is an actual console with dozens of millions sold.

With Microsoft and most third parties likely committed to cross gen for at least 24months, I think Microsoft will have a hard time distinguishing Xbox Series S from X1X. When support for current gen is dropped it'll be much easier but since MS have already said that won't happen for 2 years after Series X launches, so it feels like they should just let those on a budget continue to game on Xbox One or upgrade to Xbox One X which is already $299.

If the price of Lockhart ends up at $299 I doubt the X1X will still be in production in 6 months time they will just cut the production line to next gen and consumers get a newer console for the same price. $150 Xbox One, $299 Lockhart and $499 Series X will be the options on the market.





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Chazore said:

You get crap like "Ain't nothin gonna beat X series X, there ain't no PC with enough flops to beat it!", and that's just one example of the crap some people spread over there. Colteastwood is doing a bang up job on spreading misinformation and making Tflops his main boasting point for Xbox, to a point where he's downplaying PS5's supposed specs, and then his fanboys downplaying PC at the same time.

I wish that Xbox's marketing team wasn't so high up on spreading bullshit information or trying to warp it to make it sound like it'd be something the casual or laymen folk would know about (but they don't, so now we're seeing this shit spread like wild-fire, just like "blast processing" from the old days). I honestly wish it'd stop, because it just makes some folk look really, really stupid.

There are groups on PC, Playstation, Switch and Xbox... All spread "FUD" and "Hyperbole". - What I try and do is remove the rubbish.

victor83fernandes said:

You're missing the point, Microsoft NEEDS to compete with playstation, they wouldn't launch a much weaker console, unless they want to come in 3rd place yet again for the 3rd time. In fact that would be free advertising for sony, it would be all over gaming news and word of mouth that ps5 is way more powerful, everyone would just pay a bit more and get the ps5.

Maybe thats what microsoft wants, I get a feeling they've been wanting to quit gaming consoles for a long time now, they aren't even trying anymore.

Great. Then let Microsoft advertise.
If they propagate bullshit, I will call them out on it... And if you know me on these forums... I will call Nintendo and Sony out on it as well.

victor83fernandes said:

If ps5 base console is 450dollars, it would be at least 9 teraflops, xbox would be a laughing joke if it is less than half the graphical power, people would just joke that it isn't even next gen while ps5 is the true next gen. Not to mention there wont even be exclusives on xbox for 2 years. No one would buy it. And a console without a disc drive? See how well the xbox one S all digital did? It didn't sell much at all. Most people would rather pay a bit more and get the option of disc drive.


Im not complaining about 4tf against the xbox X, Im looking how it compared to the competition next generation.

How does price have anything to do with flops? How would lockhart be less than half the graphical power?

The Xbox One SAD's failure might not be because people actually want a disc drive... It could also be partially be the fault of pricing, the regular Xbox One S isn't that much more expensive... And when discounted is often the same price or cheaper anyway.

victor83fernandes said:
shikamaru317 said:

Original rumors were that it would have the same 1 TB SSD as Series X. I doubt they'd go smaller, since it's digital only and even 1 TB will fill up fast with next gen file sizes, and I also doubt they'll go larger if they're aiming for $300. 

At 300dollars they would never in a million years put a 1terabyte ssd, that would cost half the price of the console parts (without the controller), unless they put HDD instead, the xbox X uses HDD not ssd.

Not all SSD's are the same price, performance or quality.
Wait until we get more information before jumping to conclusions, could be just a cache setup.

Conina said:
victor83fernandes said:

There is no way this is true, like at all

2 - 4 Teraflops Is way below the current generation xbox X, even below the ps4 pro, that wont happen

3 - Microsoft will not risk the bad marketing and the jokes again this generation, launching a new gen console weaker than the current gen

Both Geforce GTX 1650 Super (4.9 TFlops) and Radeon RX 5500 XT (5.2 TFlops) are on par with a Radeon RX 590 (7.1 TFlops).

The graphic performance of a 4 TFlops Lockhart would probably be on par with the 6.2 TFlops of the Xbox One X and wouldn't have the CPU-bottleneck.

So average performance of the Xbox One X with better frametimes / less slowdowns.
Similar performance in high resolutions, but better performance in FullHD.

Likely faster. We need to remember that Lockhart -is- using RDNA2 which is 50% more performant/efficient than RDNA 1 which in turn is 50% more performant/efficient than GCN.

Conina said:
DialgaMarine said:
Personally, I don’t see the point in having a lower end console like this if they already have the XB1X, and plan to keep putting games on last gen hardware for the next couple years anyways. Probably be smarter to just cut the price of X and develop on that as the lower end console, if they absolutely need a lower end.

The point is that a XSS (Xbox Series S) is probably cheaper to produce than a X1X (Xbox One X) while being at least as fast as the X1X and avoiding some bottlenecks (CPU, RAM, loading times).

Yeah it would be if they can reduce the complexity of the power delivery and cooling system.



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