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Forums - General Discussion - The LGBT thread (Revisited)

TruckOSaurus said:
Snoorlax said:

Yeah i agree and i think most people don't have a problem with who you are and expressing your sexuality, i sure don't.

I agree that if you don't like the direction the game is taking you dont have to buy it, but that's why fanbases exist, they support developers with what they create and pay big money for it. But not when the developers add a certain "message" in to the game that really makes the fanbase feel attacked and divided, in favor of others when none of that is really necessary. It creates an Us vs. Them kind of thing and creates this whole toxic athmosphere for both sides when this is really just a videogame were talking about we're all supposed to have fun playing.

That's the problem right there, for some people LGBTQ+ people being "present" in a game is considered an attack (or an agenda) and in those cases I'd argue they are simply homophobic.

I'd argue that as well, but remember that Ellie is LGBTQ.

Do most people have a problem with Ellie for being LGBTQ?

the-pi-guy said:
Snoorlax said:

Should a thread be locked for questioning a certain videogame with political undertones which weren't neccessary in the first place? But that's exactly what the mods are doing.

The issue is the belief that LGBT has political undertones.  People in real life are gay, bisexual, transgender.  It has as much to do with politics as trees or the sky. Those aspects aren't political undertones, those are aspects that were made political by people who think they shouldn't exist.  Similarly people who see the game as a political statement for those reasons are the ones who want to make it into a political statement.  

The idea that there is a default, and that anything else must be a political statement is something that's actively harmful for games.  It stamps out creativity.  And it ultimately means that people have less games that they can connect to.  

People want variety in characters.  Different designs, different personalities, etc.  It helps us to connect with the experience.  

And it's disappointing that game devs want to make characters that can be connected to, and people attack them for trying.  Imagine a world where every character was female (and maybe you're perfectly fine with that).  But wouldn't you think it was great to be able to have a male character you could connect to?

I'm fairly certain most gamers have a problem with the direction the second game has taken and not with the inclusion of LGBT people it self. It's just that nowadays you can't question anything without being accused of a phobe, sexist or closed minded person. If Naughty Dog wanted to create a game where they can explore homosexual relationships better, then fine why not just make a new IP about it?

No they take an immensely popular game and basically say FU to the fans of the original and that's what gets them so angry. Sure there are a bunch of closed minded people here and there who hate the game just for including LGBT people but i really don't think we have an anti- Homo, Black, Women problem as a gamers community. 

JWeinCom said:
Snoorlax said:

I don't think i need to explain this to you if you'd actually played the first game. Ellie was shown to have romantic feelings for another girl in the DLC which nobody had a problem with, in fact, most accepted or embraced it.

But her sexuality is not what the whole game was about nor even heterosexual relationships, it was about Joel and Ellie trying to survive this zombie apocalypse and building up this father daughter relationship together. 

From the next game's trailers, leaks, interviews and even response after the leaks it seems this whole sexuality thing is a major point of the whole game, ditching old characters in favor of this political acceptance message. Cause you see, some people here like to make it a "Heterosexual vs Gays" thing but it's not about that at all, it's that the game is being heavily directed in a way most fans didn't expect it to go in and is really not what the original game is known for.

I haven't actually played the game, so my comments are based in the general discussions I've seen around this issue.  That being said I believe Ellie was 14 or so in the game?  And this game she's a young adult?  It makes sense that sexuality is going to be a bigger part of her life at this point.  Just like romantic (yet strangely platonic) relationships became much more prevalent in the Harry Potter books as the characters aged. 

Disregarding that, do you honestly think the backlash would be the same if this was a heterosexual relationship?  Because I've seen similar objections tons of times in regards to gay, trans characters, in all sorts of circumstances, yet not once have I heard anyone accused of pushing a heterosexual acceptance agenda. 

Ok so Ellie is lesbian and while it was unexpected, yes, there was no outrage over this. If the developers never bothered to reveal her sexuality, nobody would really know or even care about it, you would just assume that the norm is heterosexual but that's not what they did with Ellie, No problem. They could've shown Joel to be gay from the start but they chose not to. See? Because that's how they set up their story. How come gamers can now be accused of anti-gay or anything like that just because we question the second games handling of it's story and characters?

In the second game Ellie and Joel are being thrown to the side for a new character nobody knows anything about, other than that she's out for revenge and happens to be LGBT and comes really out of nowhere. Fans just don't like the way this is going and i understand their frustration because it feels like we need to be lectured on acceptance when nobody had a problem with Ellie being gay.

Add, diversity if it adds to the story to character development, not for the sake of being "aware"

Last edited by Snoorlax - on 01 May 2020

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Snoorlax said:
TruckOSaurus said:

That's the problem right there, for some people LGBTQ+ people being "present" in a game is considered an attack (or an agenda) and in those cases I'd argue they are simply homophobic.

I'd argue that as well, but remember that Ellie is LGBTQ.

Do most people have a problem with Ellie for being LGBTQ?

the-pi-guy said:

The issue is the belief that LGBT has political undertones.  People in real life are gay, bisexual, transgender.  It has as much to do with politics as trees or the sky. Those aspects aren't political undertones, those are aspects that were made political by people who think they shouldn't exist.  Similarly people who see the game as a political statement for those reasons are the ones who want to make it into a political statement.  

The idea that there is a default, and that anything else must be a political statement is something that's actively harmful for games.  It stamps out creativity.  And it ultimately means that people have less games that they can connect to.  

People want variety in characters.  Different designs, different personalities, etc.  It helps us to connect with the experience.  

And it's disappointing that game devs want to make characters that can be connected to, and people attack them for trying.  Imagine a world where every character was female (and maybe you're perfectly fine with that).  But wouldn't you think it was great to be able to have a male character you could connect to?

I'm fairly certain most gamers have a problem with the direction the second game has taken and not with the inclusion of LGBT people it self. It's just that nowadays you can't question anything without being accused of a phobe, sexist or closed minded person. If Naughty Dog wanted to create a game where they can explore homosexual relationships better, then fine why not just make a new IP about it?

No they take an immensely popular game and basically say FU to the fans of the original and that's what gets them so angry. Sure there are a bunch of closed minded people here and there who hate the game just for including LGBT people but i really don't think we have an anti- Homo, Black, Women problem as a gamers community. 

JWeinCom said:

I haven't actually played the game, so my comments are based in the general discussions I've seen around this issue.  That being said I believe Ellie was 14 or so in the game?  And this game she's a young adult?  It makes sense that sexuality is going to be a bigger part of her life at this point.  Just like romantic (yet strangely platonic) relationships became much more prevalent in the Harry Potter books as the characters aged. 

Disregarding that, do you honestly think the backlash would be the same if this was a heterosexual relationship?  Because I've seen similar objections tons of times in regards to gay, trans characters, in all sorts of circumstances, yet not once have I heard anyone accused of pushing a heterosexual acceptance agenda. 

Ok so Ellie is lesbian and while it was unexpected, yes, there was no outrage over this. If the developers never bothered to reveal her sexuality, nobody would really know or even care about it, you would just assume that the norm is heterosexual but that's not what they did with Ellie, No problem. They could've shown Joel to be gay from the start but they chose not to. See? Because that's how they set up their story. How come gamers can now be accused of anti-gay or anything like that just because we question the second games handling of it's story and characters?

In the second game Ellie and Joel are being thrown to the side for a new character nobody knows anything about, other than that she's out for revenge and happens to be trans and comes really out of nowhere. Fans just don't like the way this is going and i understand their frustration because it feels like we need to be lectured on acceptance when nobody had a problem with Ellie being gay.

Add, diversity if it adds to the story to character development, not for the sake of being "aware"

A quick google search confirms there was at least some reasonable level of outrage over Ellie being a lesbian.  Less than there is now, but that's likely due to the fact that homosexuality is far more accepted these days than being trans or some sort of gender non-conforming person.  Which I would say is at least partially due to how homosexuals have been portrayed in the media.  I cannot fathom any level of outrage, no matter how minor, for a 14 year old female character kissing a boy.  

There are also plenty of times that a franchise introduces a new character to focus on at the expense of the old.  I've never really seen this responded to with anything other than mild to moderate annoyance.

But the main problem is still something you're not getting.  You keep insisting that there has to be some special reason for a character to be "diverse".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character white unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character black unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character Asian unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character blonde unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character straight unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character short unless it adds to the story or character development".  

Yet when it comes to this circumstance where someone is defying gender norms, either through their sexuality or the way the present themselves, there needs to be a special reason.  A character can't just be trans because that character happens to be trans.  What is the reason that there needs to be this special requirement?  I'm open to suggestions but the only logical reason I can think of is that people just don't like that group of people.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 01 May 2020

Pfew this thread has become a bit tense.

I do not really think we have a lot of transphobes in this community but people are just afraid that well known characters that have build a this IP get shoved to the side in order to push a political agenda, and certain information on the background of Naughty dogs vice president and complains of the devs seems to partly point in that direction.

If Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 before he could fully climb mount olympus to take his revenge in order for a female to take his place then people being upset about that would not assumingly be sexist.



Immersiveunreality said:

Pfew this thread has become a bit tense.

I do not really think we have a lot of transphobes in this community but people are just afraid that well known characters that have build a this IP get shoved to the side in order to push a political agenda, and certain information on the background of Naughty dogs vice president and complains of the devs seems to partly point in that direction.

If Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 before he could fully climb mount olympus to take his revenge in order for a female to take his place then people being upset about that would not assumingly be sexist.

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2019/02/18/naughty-dog-the-last-of-us-part-2-playstation-4-fan-art-agenda/

This is apparently what counts as "pushing an agenda".

If he posted fanart of someone "shipping" two heterosexual characters who were never explicitly romantic in the series, do you think there would have been similar outrage?



JWeinCom said:
Snoorlax said:

I'd argue that as well, but remember that Ellie is LGBTQ.

Do most people have a problem with Ellie for being LGBTQ?

I'm fairly certain most gamers have a problem with the direction the second game has taken and not with the inclusion of LGBT people it self. It's just that nowadays you can't question anything without being accused of a phobe, sexist or closed minded person. If Naughty Dog wanted to create a game where they can explore homosexual relationships better, then fine why not just make a new IP about it?

No they take an immensely popular game and basically say FU to the fans of the original and that's what gets them so angry. Sure there are a bunch of closed minded people here and there who hate the game just for including LGBT people but i really don't think we have an anti- Homo, Black, Women problem as a gamers community. 

Ok so Ellie is lesbian and while it was unexpected, yes, there was no outrage over this. If the developers never bothered to reveal her sexuality, nobody would really know or even care about it, you would just assume that the norm is heterosexual but that's not what they did with Ellie, No problem. They could've shown Joel to be gay from the start but they chose not to. See? Because that's how they set up their story. How come gamers can now be accused of anti-gay or anything like that just because we question the second games handling of it's story and characters?

In the second game Ellie and Joel are being thrown to the side for a new character nobody knows anything about, other than that she's out for revenge and happens to be trans and comes really out of nowhere. Fans just don't like the way this is going and i understand their frustration because it feels like we need to be lectured on acceptance when nobody had a problem with Ellie being gay.

Add, diversity if it adds to the story to character development, not for the sake of being "aware"

A quick google search confirms there was at least some reasonable level of outrage over Ellie being a lesbian.  Less than there is now, but that's likely due to the fact that homosexuality is far more accepted these days than being trans or some sort of gender non-conforming person.  Which I would say is at least partially due to how homosexuals have been portrayed in the media.  

There are also plenty of times that a franchise introduces a new character to focus on at the expense of the old.  I've never really seen this responded to with anything other than mild to moderate annoyance.

But the main problem is still something you're not getting.  You keep insisting that there has to be some special reason for a character to be "diverse".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character white unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character black unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character Asian unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character blonde unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character straight unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character short unless it adds to the story or character development".  

Yet when it comes to this circumstance where someone is defying gender norms, either through their sexuality or the way the present themselves, there needs to be a special reason.  A character can't just be trans because that character happens to be trans.  What is the reason that there needs to be this special requirement?  I'm open to suggestions but the only logical reason I can think of is that people just don't like that group of people.

Sorry but im really feeling you're just reaching here.

Yes, there will always be a minority against gay portrayals in videogames and whatever else but lets not act as if The Last Of Us got bad scores, gamers stopped playing it, put the game down and pissed on it just because of homosexual representation.

Plenty of times, but this is a case where most fans feel it's not done right and they have every right to express their opinions about it.

I don't insist we need a special reason for gay characters, because again Ellie didn't have any reasons, she just happened to kiss another girl and yeah we got the message cool. I insist that we don't need existing franchises to make "awareness" a major point of the game applied to them in an unneccesary manner. Cause we all know racism exists, would i like the game if it centered around racism? Replace Ellie and Joel with Black or Latino characters instead? Not at all i'm sure most people wouldn't cause that's not what they bought the game for, they developed with these two characters, don't throw them away because of modern day politics.

BTW you apparently keep insisting that gamers are anti- LGTB and are the sole reason for there not being enough diversity in gaming. The only reason heterosexuality is viewed as the norm, as you said, in gaming is because most gamers are heterosexual white males, that's their target audience. I don't think it's because of their "closed minded nature" that LGBT, women and minorities aren't as represented as cisgendered white males in gaming. It's because these Game Studios only care about making a profit, notice how they want gamers to be more "open minded" about content they're not neccessarily looking for in their favorite games.

Honestly, if gamers Choose not to buy a game for it not being to their liking, wheter they're closed minded or not, they have every right not to support it and should not have to be attacked and accused for any isms or phobes for it.



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Snoorlax said:
JWeinCom said:

A quick google search confirms there was at least some reasonable level of outrage over Ellie being a lesbian.  Less than there is now, but that's likely due to the fact that homosexuality is far more accepted these days than being trans or some sort of gender non-conforming person.  Which I would say is at least partially due to how homosexuals have been portrayed in the media.  

There are also plenty of times that a franchise introduces a new character to focus on at the expense of the old.  I've never really seen this responded to with anything other than mild to moderate annoyance.

But the main problem is still something you're not getting.  You keep insisting that there has to be some special reason for a character to be "diverse".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character white unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character black unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character Asian unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character blonde unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character straight unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character short unless it adds to the story or character development".  

Yet when it comes to this circumstance where someone is defying gender norms, either through their sexuality or the way the present themselves, there needs to be a special reason.  A character can't just be trans because that character happens to be trans.  What is the reason that there needs to be this special requirement?  I'm open to suggestions but the only logical reason I can think of is that people just don't like that group of people.

Sorry but im really feeling you're just reaching here.

Yes, there will always be a minority against gay portrayals in videogames and whatever else but lets not act as if The Last Of Us got bad scores, gamers stopped playing it, put the game down and pissed on it just because of homosexual representation.

Plenty of times, but this is a case where most fans feel it's not done right and they have every right to express their opinions about it.

I don't insist we need a special reason for gay characters, because again Ellie didn't have any reasons, she just happened to kiss another girl and yeah we got the message cool. I insist that we don't need existing franchises to make "awareness" a major point of the game applied to them in an unneccesary manner. Cause we all know racism exists, would i like the game if it centered around racism? Replace Ellie and Joel with Black or Latino characters instead? Not at all i'm sure most people wouldn't cause that's not what they bought the game for, they developed with these two characters, don't throw them away because of modern day politics.

BTW you apparently keep insisting that gamers are anti- LGTB and are the sole reason for there not being enough diversity in gaming. The only reason heterosexuality is viewed as the norm, as you said, in gaming is because most gamers are heterosexual white males, that's their target audience. I don't think it's because of their "closed minded nature" that LGBT, women and minorities aren't as represented as cisgendered white males in gaming. It's because these Game Studios only care about making a profit, notice how they want gamers to be more "open minded" about content they're not neccessarily looking for in their favorite games.

Honestly, if gamers Choose not to buy a game for it not being to their liking, wheter they're closed minded or not, they have every right not to support it and should not have to be attacked and accused for any isms or phobes for it.

You literally said that characters should not be diverse unless "it adds to the story to character development".  Do you apply the same standard for instance to white characters?  Should a character only be white if it adds to the story or character development?  If not, then yes, you are insisting that there needs to be a special reason for characters to be diverse.  

The rest of the post is a strawman.  As I never said gamers "are anti-LGTB and are the sole reason for there not being enough diversity in gaming", or anything like that, I'm not going to defend a point I never made.

I also never said a person couldn't refuse to buy a game for whatever reason they want.  But if those reasons are based on bias, they should be called out as such. 

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 01 May 2020

Immersiveunreality said:

If Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 before he could fully climb mount olympus to take his revenge in order for a female to take his place then people being upset about that would not assumingly be sexist.

By that same logic though, if Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 so that another male character could take his place then there wouldn't be any accusations of pushing an agenda, it'd just be seen as a stupid plot twist.



OlfinBedwere said:
Immersiveunreality said:

If Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 before he could fully climb mount olympus to take his revenge in order for a female to take his place then people being upset about that would not assumingly be sexist.

By that same logic though, if Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 so that another male character could take his place then there wouldn't be any accusations of pushing an agenda, it'd just be seen as a stupid plot twist.

Yeah, this is similar to the situation in MGS2.  When that came out, there were a lot of people (justifiably I think) upset that they wound up playing as Raiden and not Snake.  Yet nobody accused them of pushing a pro ninja agenda or anything like that.



OlfinBedwere said:
Immersiveunreality said:

If Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 before he could fully climb mount olympus to take his revenge in order for a female to take his place then people being upset about that would not assumingly be sexist.

By that same logic though, if Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 so that another male character could take his place then there wouldn't be any accusations of pushing an agenda, it'd just be seen as a stupid plot twist.

It is because people try to find reason why such a change is made.



Immersiveunreality said:

Pfew this thread has become a bit tense.

I do not really think we have a lot of transphobes in this community but people are just afraid that well known characters that have build a this IP get shoved to the side in order to push a political agenda, and certain information on the background of Naughty dogs vice president and complains of the devs seems to partly point in that direction.

If Kratos got slaughtered in GOW3 before he could fully climb mount olympus to take his revenge in order for a female to take his place then people being upset about that would not assumingly be sexist.

I think you might be wrong there. I think there are a lot of them, but they're subtle about it and not blatantly shitty about it. If they weren't transphobic, they wouldn't be using these games and these arguments against trans inclusion. they're masking their bigotry with the call to 'not be political'.



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