Forums - Movies Discussion - The Rise of BS - Star Wars Epi 9 SPOILERS

Jaicee said:

I feel like the people here blaming RoS's failures on TLJ are frankly trying to justify the fact that the actual reason RoS sucks is because it very obviously panders to their demands for this trilogy instead of following through on the direction established in TLJ.  #StarWarsFans type people simply don't want to own their own role in ruining this trilogy for most everyone, including me.

This is a bit odd of a statement for a number of reasons - for one I think it's pretty clear Rian Johnson ruined the trilogy if anything. Two - you do like Last Jedi correct? So that would now make you a #StarWarsFan. What is the differential between you, a Star Wars fan, and those "other" Star Wars fans who "ruined" the trilogy? And given many of the reviews I've seen it clearly wasn't ruined for a great many, so that's a more-or-less subjective idea.

I get the opposition in being against obvious, desperate "fan service," and share some of that sentiment myself. But ultimately Disney is going to go in the direction that they think will get them the most success. At the end of the day, money talks and bullshit walks. And I think it makes more sense for Disney to make a film that more resembles the old ones. After all, these are Star Wars films. If Rian Johnson wanted to make some weird new dark, edge, avant-garde sci-fi themed film, I think he should have just developed his own film/franchise, rather than roll with the Star Wars name and turn it into something that resembles the franchise in name only. He may have done better in that role - and really when you boil it down Last Jedi had PLENTY of fan service itself anyway, between the odd Yoda showing & the final scene which looked and felt exactly like the Empire opening scene..

The Luke Skywalker in that film was simply not Luke Skywalker. I think this was a large part of the backlash. A character is more than a name and an actor. People identify with a character because of, well, their character. And with the new Luke, there was virtually nothing that tied him to the old (well really the "young") Luke. When fans see "Star Wars" they expect a certain type of film & w/certain traits. Last Jedi had very few of those. It's largely the same reason Phantom Menace was panned by fans. If you stray too far from the Star Wars traits, it ceases to really be Star Wars, and becomes just another paint-by-numbers sci-fi or superhero film of which there are a million of those out there already. 

Ultimately, I just don't quite get what fans of the Last Jedi were expecting with this film - given how things were set up. It almost felt like the end of that film was setting things up for an onging Saturday morning cartoon but not the climactic, dramatic 2nd part of a space fantasy trilogy.

Perhaps it's a lack of creativity on my part, but I truly don't see any plot for RoS that could have transpired that could have really made this film interesting, after killing off Luke, Han, Snoke, Kylo reverting back to his evil mustache-twirling self, and establishing that "ehh Rey is just some chick, no heritage of significance, limited motivation (or personality for that matter), nothing. Oh - and everyone and anyone can use the Force and be a super powerful Jedi!" The weird and ambiguous new laws of the Force established, the lack of cliffhangers, of personal narratives or world-building, continuity issues, killing off of many of the interesting characters, etc - basically meant that Abrams was set up to fail, especially given he was to wrap up this entire trilogy in around 2 hours. 



 

"We hold these truths t-be self-ful evident. All men and women created by the.. Go-you know the.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

Around the Network

As soon as I read the OP's first paragraph? I knew we would be the absolute opposite on this film. IMO, TLJ was basically a disjointed 24hr car chase in space, all because Poe stuffed up destroying a dreadnought and loosing all those bombers. The whole angsty thing between Poe and the Admiral was just pointless soap opera drama with no benefit to the narrative. TLJ showed how much RJ does not know Star Wars. But, the cinematography was good. But again, Rey's parents - answer? Nothing to see here.

JJ did what he could with TRoS and saved the whole thing from disaster. See - I told you I would be the opposite. Rey's grand parent - everything to see here. Luke? An orphan with loving foster parents who resists the darkside leading to his father's last moment redemption. Rey? An orphan who had trauma of her parents being executed, living the life of a scavenger, and dealing with the anger that comes from this, leading to the redemption of Kylo, and then adopting the name of Skywalker that obviously means metaphorically to her, at least, redemption. JJ made that happen, not RJ. RF threw Rey under the bus. JJ made her the best female/male hero in the whole canon.



DarthJarvis said:
9. Finn has something extremely important to tell Rey that it's a matter of life or death... then completely drops it and when its brought up again its secretive. I figured it was that he was force sensitive too but if that's the case BFD... why make it cause issues with one of your friends and keep it a secret?

Since TFA it was obvious that Finn was infatuated with Rey so Finn in TROS was just ashamed of telling Rey and almost got the courage when they were about to die. Don't be surprised if you see future stories talking about Rey and her children with Finn.

I read your other post and yes, Finn turns down Rose, it is obvious Finn ignores Rose the same way TROS ignores her.

I won't defend this movie much because this sequel trilogy is not worth it.

Machiavellian said:
AbbathTheGrim said:
I knew this movie was destined to be a mess after I saw The Last Jedi.

Which means you already tarnished yourself in taking the movie as it is and enjoying what it does.  If your thought process is already negative, then most time it would take a lot to change a person already predisposed opinion.

Nonsense. I had a feeling Hustlers was going to be an overrated movie due to how it looked and how it was discussed by shills and it turned out to be a pretty good movie. This happens to me with some movies, I am always opened to be wrong.

I was expecting that TROS would be a mess because the people behind TLJ didn't care for the movie that came before it, TFA, and didn't care for the movie that would come next TROS. So TROS had to tag on a bigger villain (Sidious), with no set up, because there was no villain worth fighting against after the TLJ and TROS had to show Jedi training when Johnson completely and absolutely failed to show the importance of Jedi training, not to mention the death of Carrie Fisher but then you can't blame that one on anyone.



Nintendo is selling their IPs to Microsoft and this is true because:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=221391&page=1

AbbathTheGrim said:
DarthJarvis said:
9. Finn has something extremely important to tell Rey that it's a matter of life or death... then completely drops it and when its brought up again its secretive. I figured it was that he was force sensitive too but if that's the case BFD... why make it cause issues with one of your friends and keep it a secret?

Since TFA it was obvious that Finn was infatuated with Rey so Finn in TROS was just ashamed of telling Rey and almost got the courage when they were about to die. Don't be surprised if you see future stories talking about Rey and her children with Finn.

I read your other post and yes, Finn turns down Rose, it is obvious Finn ignores Rose the same way TROS ignores her.

I won't defend this movie much because this sequel trilogy is not worth it.

Machiavellian said:

Which means you already tarnished yourself in taking the movie as it is and enjoying what it does.  If your thought process is already negative, then most time it would take a lot to change a person already predisposed opinion.

Nonsense. I had a feeling Hustlers was going to be an overrated movie due to how it looked and how it was discussed by shills and it turned out to be a pretty good movie. This happens to me with some movies, I am always opened to be wrong.

I was expecting that TROS would be a mess because the people behind TLJ didn't care for the movie that came before it, TFA, and didn't care for the movie that would come next TROS. So TROS had to tag on a bigger villain (Sidious), with no set up, because there was no villain worth fighting against after the TLJ and TROS had to show Jedi training when Johnson completely and absolutely failed to show the importance of Jedi training, not to mention the death of Carrie Fisher but then you can't blame that one on anyone.

Yes, you have one incident where your opinion changed.  How often is that then not having an opinion at all until you actually watch the movie.  If you go into anything already thinking negative thoughts any little thing thats negative sticks to you and the more you may experience the least bit of chance your opinion change.  I am not trying to question your opinion of why you like or dislike ROS, because its your opinion, I am just saying already making up your mind something will be bad then having it change is far more difficult then not having any opinion and then forming one after you experience the content.



Machiavellian said:
AbbathTheGrim said:

Since TFA it was obvious that Finn was infatuated with Rey so Finn in TROS was just ashamed of telling Rey and almost got the courage when they were about to die. Don't be surprised if you see future stories talking about Rey and her children with Finn.

I read your other post and yes, Finn turns down Rose, it is obvious Finn ignores Rose the same way TROS ignores her.

I won't defend this movie much because this sequel trilogy is not worth it.

Nonsense. I had a feeling Hustlers was going to be an overrated movie due to how it looked and how it was discussed by shills and it turned out to be a pretty good movie. This happens to me with some movies, I am always opened to be wrong.

I was expecting that TROS would be a mess because the people behind TLJ didn't care for the movie that came before it, TFA, and didn't care for the movie that would come next TROS. So TROS had to tag on a bigger villain (Sidious), with no set up, because there was no villain worth fighting against after the TLJ and TROS had to show Jedi training when Johnson completely and absolutely failed to show the importance of Jedi training, not to mention the death of Carrie Fisher but then you can't blame that one on anyone.

Yes, you have one incident where your opinion changed.  How often is that then not having an opinion at all until you actually watch the movie.  If you go into anything already thinking negative thoughts any little thing thats negative sticks to you and the more you may experience the least bit of chance your opinion change.  I am not trying to question your opinion of why you like or dislike ROS, because its your opinion, I am just saying already making up your mind something will be bad then having it change is far more difficult then not having any opinion and then forming one after you experience the content.

Shazam was better than I expected.

One Upon A Time In Hollywood was less good than I expected.

Insidious Chapter 3 was better than I expected after the first 2 which I didn't like at all and had no positive expectations for that third movie, at all.

Frozen was better than I expected when I first thought it would be just another Disney kids movie with lame slapstick comedy.

My correct expectations for the mess that TROS ended up being were nothing but observations in the development of a trilogy (or lack of development) and the specific disregard for development in TLJ towards a the third movie that forced said third movie to tackle and tag a lot of things without the resources.

I don't know if you are trying to project yourself in how you function using your own observations of how you may have found that you auto-suggest yourself into not liking something, but I don't work that way and there is no point in you trying to make claims about how I work when you don't even know my real name. It costs me nothing to say: "I was wrong, this movie is better than I expected."



Nintendo is selling their IPs to Microsoft and this is true because:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=221391&page=1

Around the Network

I see a lot of people blaming exclusively the Last Jedi for the trilogy not being coherent. I disagree - I think that the Force Awakens led the foundations for bad story-telling, and is at least equally to blame as the Last Jedi for the trilogy not feeling coherent. (This, aside from the fact that the real blame is the lack of planning within Disney in the first place - who does a trilogy without knowing where it's going? Jeez.)

Anyway - here's a challenge, if anyone wants to take it up: One of the biggest quoted flaws for the Last Jedi is how they treated Luke's character. My thing is - how was the Last Jedi supposed to treat Luke? The very first scene in the Force Awakens has the main villain looking for Luke, because he's missing and absolutely nobody knows his true location. What kind of excuse is the Last Jedi supposed to come up with to explain Luke's disappearance without Luke looking like a total arse? When the next movie begins, what the hell is Luke supposed to say that still makes him look like a hero?

The Last Jedi took some risks and ignored some stuff from the Force Awakens, this is true, but I sincerely also don't think the Force Awakens placed good foundations in the first place. JJ Abrams threw a bunch of stuff in the air in hopes that the next directer would catch it and run with it. It didn't work out.

Anyway, I always hoped RoS would connect the trilogy finally, but it didn't, and I left the heater having enjoyed an underwhelming Star Wars movie.



I'll be reading your full impressions once I watch the movie at the end of the week.
It's a shame though. I enjoyed The Last Jedi for what it was, but they capitulated to loud and angry minorities.



Fallawful said:
I see a lot of people blaming exclusively the Last Jedi for the trilogy not being coherent. I disagree - I think that the Force Awakens led the foundations for bad story-telling, and is at least equally to blame as the Last Jedi for the trilogy not feeling coherent. (This, aside from the fact that the real blame is the lack of planning within Disney in the first place - who does a trilogy without knowing where it's going? Jeez.)

Anyway - here's a challenge, if anyone wants to take it up: One of the biggest quoted flaws for the Last Jedi is how they treated Luke's character. My thing is - how was the Last Jedi supposed to treat Luke? The very first scene in the Force Awakens has the main villain looking for Luke, because he's missing and absolutely nobody knows his true location. What kind of excuse is the Last Jedi supposed to come up with to explain Luke's disappearance without Luke looking like a total arse? When the next movie begins, what the hell is Luke supposed to say that still makes him look like a hero?

The Last Jedi took some risks and ignored some stuff from the Force Awakens, this is true, but I sincerely also don't think the Force Awakens placed good foundations in the first place. JJ Abrams threw a bunch of stuff in the air in hopes that the next directer would catch it and run with it. It didn't work out.

Anyway, I always hoped RoS would connect the trilogy finally, but it didn't, and I left the heater having enjoyed an underwhelming Star Wars movie.

I agree that TFA started things off on the wrong foot. I wanted to love it. I liked it okay but I personally wanted an original story before diving back into the familiar. When it was over, I said to myself "This is the new crew. Now that this is out the way, let's see where this goes..." and I was excited.

I saw TLJ review scores and I was even more excited. I saw TLJ and...I didn't enjoy it. As an audience member, it wasn't my job to write the story or say "They should have done this." My job was to watch the film and be entertained. I wasn't. I was actually bored and couldn't even turn off my brain and enjoy it in any capacity.

BUT based on your challenge, Luke could have just said something like:

-"I've been expecting you."

-"There are forces at work that you don't yet understand."

-He could have gone there to train at this sacred Jedi training ground to get more powerful for the unknown threat out there. He was "The Last Jedi" and Kylo and his Knights were looking for him.

All pulled directly from my ass in thirty seconds. Probably all sucked but I'm not a writer 

*On a different note, if I WAS a writer, I'd have had it be revealed that Finn was "Order 66'd" into joining the rebellion. That he was the reason the First Order was tracking the Rebellion in TLJ. He would spend the rest of the trilogy trying to redeem himself and that's what he would be trying to tell Rey. That's my personal fanfic, though.



Twitter: @d21lewis  --I'll add you if you add me!!

Fallawful said:
(..)
Anyway - here's a challenge, if anyone wants to take it up: One of the biggest quoted flaws for the Last Jedi is how they treated Luke's character. My thing is - how was the Last Jedi supposed to treat Luke? The very first scene in the Force Awakens has the main villain looking for Luke, because he's missing and absolutely nobody knows his true location. What kind of excuse is the Last Jedi supposed to come up with to explain Luke's disappearance without Luke looking like a total arse? When the next movie begins, what the hell is Luke supposed to say that still makes him look like a hero? (..)

Could've been looking for Palpatine. Which he needs to do alone because there's no one in the universe who'd stand a chance.

But, obviously, they could've only done that if they had planned out this trilogy in the first place.



d21lewis said:
(..)

*On a different note, if I WAS a writer, I'd have had it be revealed that Finn was "Order 66'd" into joining the rebellion. That he was the reason the First Order was tracking the Rebellion in TLJ. He would spend the rest of the trilogy trying to redeem himself and that's what he would be trying to tell Rey. That's my personal fanfic, though.

This is a funny idea. Though that would've created continuity problems; Finn isn't a clone, while the early Stormtroopers were clones that had the Order 66 and other stuff programmed into their heads to be super-loyal.