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Forums - Movies Discussion - The Rise of BS - Star Wars Epi 9 SPOILERS

Hiku said:
Jaicee said:

I think almost anyone who sees this movie will dislike it, or at least consider it the weakest Star Wars film installment to date.

That's what I expected, after everything I heard. So halfway through, I was surprised to find that I didn't absolutely hate the film. But I still fully expected something to completely ruin it for me, similar to how I felt about what they did to Luke's character in TLJ.
Especially because I specifically heard someone say "If you like ****, you're going to hate this film." But that character wasn't even in the film, and I'm still not sure what he meant by that.

This movie was about as bad as Episode 7 for me, but I liked it a bit more due to better fan service. I didn't hate it.
I didn't hate Epi 7 either, but there was also nothing about it that I liked. It was just boring. There were at least a few things I liked in this one though.

So I go online and post some of my thoughts on Epi 9, and I see people here commonly express very similar opinions as my self. Even after seeing it and not hating it, that surprised me. Because I had heard almost nothing but bad things about it, and critics dislike it.

But looking at Rotten Tomatoes, currently the situation seems reversed from TLJ.

For TLJ critics generally liked it, and fans disliked it.
Now critics dislike this one, and fans like it.

I didn't read your entire OP yet, but I will probably tomorrow.

My ranking of the films would probably be:

1) The Empire Strikes Back
2) Return of the Jedi
3) Revenge of the Sith

4) A New Hope
5) Attack of the Clones
6) The Rise of Skywalker
7) The Force Awakens
8) The Phantom Menace
9) The Last Jedi

I used to like Phantom Menace more, almost entirely due to Darth Maul. But after seeing that fight again in recent years, I think it was choreographed poorly, so now it bothers me whenever I see it.

You should really try using scientific surveys of moviegoers like the ones I pointed to in an earlier post on this thread, NOT internet-based "viewer reviews" that don't even verify that you saw the movie. According to the surveys of actual, verified moviegoers, The Last Jedi was widely received well (like with the critics) and The Rise of Skywalker got the worst reception of any Star Wars film to date (also similar to critical opinion).

In other words, don't just believe organized internet activists.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 22 December 2019

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Also, can we please stop altering the titles of my threads so often?

I know my opinions are broadly unpopular here and everything, but does every disagreement we have really call for moderation?

Hiku said:
haxxiy said:

I see. Says there that what they changed since then was to not allow people to review a movie before it releases in theaters, to weed out comments from people who are unlikely to have seen it yet.
I'm sure that's for the better, and maybe other sites should try the same.

Speaking of "professional "Critics, user scores tend to get most of the flack (for good reason), but I don't think how unprofessional some of these critics are gets enough attention. Here's a recent example.

To be fair, I believe both series dropped at once and long or ongoing games suffer from the same issue, since a lot of these reviewers are pressured to release their evaluation as quickly as possible without really reviewing the work as a whole. And some, of course, genuinely won't care after the first impression: I'd say that particularly the first episode of the Witcher has been fairly criticized in terms of pacing and acting, and that should reflect in the final score, but to take it for the entirety of the season? That's streching too far.

But that's straying a bit too much from the topic now.






I knew this movie was destined to be a mess after I saw The Last Jedi.

Nintendo is selling their IPs to Microsoft and this is true because:

mZuzek said:
Jaicee said:

Let me start this off by pointing reminding those who don't know that I've held a very positive view of (most of) the recent Star Wars movies. The Last Jedi was, in fact, the best Star Wars installment to date as far as I'm concerned and I will die on that hill if need be. I loved Rey and Kylo Ren and Rose

This is where I stopped.

To be fair, though, of course every TLJ fan is going to hate the new one. It was made with a very clear and specific purpose to be the anti-TLJ, to the point where all the actors and staff involved seemed to be pointing fingers at TLJ in every interview they made. Obviously, that isn't wholly wrong, because TLJ is a terrible movie, but you can't hope to be creating an exciting trilogy when the third movie is trying to undo everything the second movie did - which, to be fair, was already trying to undo everything the first one did. This whole trilogy was a massive fiasco, there was never any planning involved, just committee decisions on what would make the most money. All three movies filled with loads of shallow fanservice, with barely any substance to show for it. "Have an issue in your story? Just throw *insert random character from the OG trilogy here* and there you go, problem solved!" That was the mentality throughout the whole thing - TLJ probably being the one that least did this, but it still was an offender with that Yoda scene which was super uncalled for, and in its attempt at "subverting expectations" over another old character, ruined that character.

I don't know why I'm bothered to come talk about it, to be honest, but yeah. A massive trainwreck, this thing. I feel sorry for those who enjoyed TLJ, not only because of their poor taste, but also because it means they got spat in the face for no good reason. Any person with a decent taste would've given up on the franchise already, at least let the TLJ fans get something since they're the only ones who still care - and consequently, don't make the trilogy's continuity issues even worse in the process.


And this sentence just illustrates the problem with the trilogy, as a whole.  JJ started out the trilogy with a competent film.  It wasn't great, but I think most see it as an ok film.  There were some things he left out story-wise that shouldn't have been, but it did set up a few good mysteries that could have had interesting reveals in the following films.  Unfortunately, Kathleen Kennedy saw it fit to give the film to what was basically an internet troll. 

"Oh, you want something interesting to happen in the film, nope!  Subverted your expectations, didn't I?  You liked this character before?  Well, he's completely changed and for no real good reason, too."

And the fans of TLJ can say that most people liked it all they want, but the fact is they didn't.  Who knows this most of all? Disney.  There's a reason ROS tries to retcon TLJ, and throws a few jabs at Rian.  And Disney made sure this time, unlike with TLJ, the cast and crew weren't going around bashing the fans who criticized the negatives of the new trilogy.  Disney saw a film that was "guaranteed" to hit ~$1.8B, then supposed to do $1.6B after the big 2nd weekend drop, go on to hitting just $1.33B.  They saw their merch sales plummet.  A movie that could have rose the level that TFA ended up if it was a great movie with interesting reveals, just dragged the first film down with it.

Now, we have ROS, which turned out EXACTLY how I predicted it would.  A muddled mess of retcons, ones that are too little, too late, while also trying to tell its own story.  An original enemy that could have been interesting, instead was killed off prematurely, so they had to bring back Palpatine.  While it is a dumb decision, it really was the only one that they were left with.  The 3rd film is too late to introduce a new main villain.  It would be like if Sauron (in a stupid easily seen coming way, I might add) was killed off in The Two Towers, the threat is gone, even though he was made out to be the big bad of the series for two films.  Then, in Return of the King, out of nowhere there's a new villain that was never hinted at.  We have to learn his back story, motivations, and see his defeat in the span of an hour.  Just awful writing. 

It doesn't help matters that they gave the series back to JJ, who is an opener, not a closer.  He's pretty good at setting up mysteries, but is god awful at giving them any kind of meaningful payoff.  He served up the ball competently enough, but Rian spiked it into the net.  Then, JJ tried kicking it over the net.  A nice try, but it isn't how the game is played, so it doesn't count even if it went over, and the fans aren't happy.

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I enjoyed the movie.... however, in the grand scheme of things it was absolute garbage.

1. They made Palpatine the chosen one.
2. Force healing was absolutely garbage. Makes Anakins dive into darkness completely stupid.
3. It wasn't a Skywalker saga. It was a Palpatine saga.
4. If Palpatine needed a blood heir why kill his son?
5. If Leia senses what Ben will be and tells Luke... then why train ben to be strong and why would luke give him a reason to turn?
6. There was something else and I'll remember it.

6.... IF FORCE GHOSTS CAN INTERACT WITH PHYSICAL OBJECTS SUCH AS LIGHT SABERS WHY THE FUCK DONT ALL OF THEM COME BACK FROM THE DEAD AND START FUCKING UP SITH. And I dont mean in Episode 9... I mean in like Episode 4... you hear Kenobi, Gin, Windu at the end... mother fuckers, use force ghost and wipe out that clone army. You're a ghost. You're unstoppable now.

7. The force making inanimate objects use Goku's instant teleportation was kinda stupid. I was able to ignore it when it happened with the Vader mask. It made for a cool fight dynamic but even if one of them landed a killing blow then itd be idiotic. For the last fight scene I could just shut that out of my mind and say since I didnt see it that Ben just force pulled it to him since he wasn't that far away.

Last edited by DarthJarvis - on 22 December 2019

Jaicee said:

You should really try using scientific surveys of moviegoers like the ones I pointed to in an earlier post on this thread, NOT internet-based "viewer reviews" that don't even verify that you saw the movie. According to the surveys of actual, verified moviegoers, The Last Jedi was widely received well (like with the critics) and The Rise of Skywalker got the worst reception of any Star Wars film to date (also similar to critical opinion).

In other words, don't just believe organized internet activists.

If I was more invested in the subject, then I may do that. Though statistics on an arbitrary scale are usually not very informative anyway, when there are people who just like movies for the action or pretty effects.
I brought up Rotten Tomatoes only because the situation appeared reversed from last time. I can't vouch for the people going there though.

So what I tend to look for is mainly people explaining their thoughts in detail. And they can do that here. Or in a review article/video. Or in a conversation with a friend over the phone, etc.

And that's where I've gotten my perception of what people around me who are generally thoughtful think of these things. (And I think people who are more attracted to expressing themselves in these ways, are. Rather than just picking between Yes/No, 1-9, etc on a survey.)

For TLJ, I've been able to discuss it with a number of friends, listened to a few reviews, and read or engaged with posters here. And in my experience, the perception was not only almost unanimously negative, but the criticism was often extremely harsh.
On a level that I couldn't recall seeing before, until Game of Thrones Final Season showed up. Although I'm sure there are some surveys out there that has people primarily liking it, I'm not sure those people have considered the same critique that I know people who have expressed them have.

But likewise, I'm interested in hearing your opinions on the movies, so I'll read through your OP thoroughly.

By the way, in case I use SurveyMonkey for something in the future, you mentioned that they have verified that the people they polled watched the movie. And I wondered how they did that, so I looked around on their site. But couldn't find it in their methodology
It says they surveyed 4,441 people for TLJ. I don't imagine they'd have the time to ask everyone to submit proof for every movie.
So since you said that they do verify moviegoers, do you know what process they use, or where I can read about it?

Jaicee said:
Also, can we please stop altering the titles of my threads so often?

I know my opinions are broadly unpopular here and everything, but does every disagreement we have really call for moderation?

I don't dislike your posts. In fact I like reading them. And I have another one of your threads bookmarked to read for later.

I've never edited one of your thread titles before, nor am I aware if anyone has. But I did this time. Though I didn't change anything you had already written. It's still there. I only added the "Star Wars Epi 9 Spoilers" part, because it's a thread that focuses on discussing plot points from the film, so it should be clear in the thread title. You can alter it to something else if you want. As long as it makes people aware that you'll be discussing spoilers.

Last edited by Hiku - on 22 December 2019

As far as critics vs fan scores - and I say this as a critic (well when it comes to games anyway), a lot of critics can tend to have an agenda, focus more on the artistic nuances vs entertainment value, and/or could somewhat have biases thanks to Disney accommodating them. Not going full-on conspiratorial and saying these guys are paid under the table or something, but it could even just be more indirect by getting free screenings and thus looking at the film more favorably, or simply not wanting to piss off Disney execs and "rock the boat" too much. I know it my experience, while I strive to be objective as possible, this can be a tougher feat when tossed a free copy of a game.

With user scores, while many of them can also certainly come with their own agendas, there's at least a far greater pool of people to pull from so the cumulative average tends to be a bit more in line with the actual quality in terms of accuracy. The users tend to speak a bit more from the heart and have no reason to go out of their way to provide a review so you get the sense that they're (typically) more authentic. They aren't being paid, they don't need to bring traffic to their site/blog, etc. Of course - you DO also get the issue with fanboys of other consoles purposely trying to sabotage reviews (Sony vs Nintendo and vice-versa), though I think this is far more an issue in gaming than in films unless maybe we're talking DC vs Marvel or something.

That's not to discredit reviewers - I mean hey, they're getting paid usually to do what they do, so they obviously know what they're doing to SOME degree. But I think some forget that critics are just fans too (and sometimes maybe not EVEN fans), just fans that tend to be better writers than the average fan :P


"We hold these truths t-be self-ful evident. All men and women created by the.. Go-you know the.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

John2290 said:
I have no interest in watching it, i tried to watch TLJ again recently with a fresh head and I wanted to shoot myself half way through rather than sit it out all again. Wasted my money on that this year, no more Star wars for me unless it's a rerun of the OG trilogy, Revenge of the sith or Rouge one which I think is a film up there with the OG trilogy and the only one this decade that is even worth watching this late in the game. They killed star wars and unless they take a different time period and just build out a new story I can't see them getting my money again, I hope the Mandalorian is something that will fill this void once it comes to Ireland next year, for now I only know it has baby Yoda and I don't want to know anything else.

I would have to say its absolutely skippable. They shat all over Anakin and Lucas in it.