Forums - Politics Discussion - Official Thread: The Impeachment of President Donald Trump

Illusion said:
zorg1000 said:

So only people who openly admit to being racist can be considered racist? Shaking hands with a black person disqualifies one from being racist?

Given that the corporate media has made open comparisons between Trump and Hitler and his supporters to Nazi's then yes, you should be able to see clear evidence of hatred towards those with different skin colors.  If you cannot, then this should lead you to seriously question the honesty of the corporate media and whether you should trust anything it tells you in the future including the details of this impeachment.

Hitler/Nazi comparisons are over the top but I'm pretty sure a user just gave sources of the racist/discriminatory things he has done.



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Locknuts said:
A lot of effort for something that will simply be rejected once it hits the Senate. Unless someone can actually show evidence of 'High Crimes and Misdemeanors'. Then maybe some Republicans will actually have a reason to impeach.

There is already ample evidence of impeachable conduct. Republicans just don't care.



sundin13 said:
Locknuts said:
A lot of effort for something that will simply be rejected once it hits the Senate. Unless someone can actually show evidence of 'High Crimes and Misdemeanors'. Then maybe some Republicans will actually have a reason to impeach.

There is already ample evidence of impeachable conduct. Republicans just don't care.

I haven't seen it. It all seems pretty weak to me. They need something absolutely concrete after that whole Russia fiasco, otherwise Trump is basically guaranteed 2020.

Unless I've just missed it? I'd be happy to get a link to some concrete stuff.



padib said:
Runa216 said:

Why do you (And most republicans) have to be so disingenuous about all this? Stop trying to twist and contort the narrative so that the world is simply hating Trump becuase we hate Trump. This isn't a witch hunt, it's not a hoax, it's not fake news, the man has been an abolute shit-disturber since day one. we're not looking for an excuse to boot him due to partisan bias, we're not trying to twist the narrative so that we can excuse our hate...

...we hate him BECAUSE of all the things he does, the lies he tells, the complete lack of qualifications he has, and the petulant, childish behaviour he exists. Nobody's out to get him becuase the meanie republican got elected, we hate him becuase he's an abhorrent human being who has no place being in a position of power. He did all of this to himself by being racist, bigoted, ignorant, and childish. He's being treated appropriately to his behaviour. He's acting like a child, so he's being punished accordingly. 

If anything Democracy is working at its best, becuase the moronic masses the voted him in had their voice heard, and now the rest of us collectively agree he's an absolute shithead and needs to go for all sorts of issues. This is just the tipping point to a campaign of petulance and disgusting behaviour. Frankly, the only reason he wasn't impeached 6 months into his term was because of the partisanship of the republican party and his shitty followers inexplicably supporting his fascist behaviour and rampant xenophobia. The only reason he got voted for in the first place and wasn't kicked to the curb soon thereafter is because there's a gross number of very terrible people in America supporting his bigotry as the last gasp of old racist white men. 

My only concern is what's gonna happen if he does get impeached. Who knows what equally terrifying leader we'll have. Because, for as idiotic and childish as Trump is, at least he doesn't wanna 'hang em all' when it comes to gay people. 

I'm Canadian. I have no agenda here, just stating my point of view. How did you get 4 likes without even reading my original post which mentioned that?

You hate him, but you are not the democratic majority. That's my point.

Keep in mind, the hatred that is shared on all camps of political divide is what created Trump in the first place. If radical left-wing citizens didn't so alienate republicans like you're doing with me (I'm not even a republican for crying out loud), none of this would've happened. You are responsible for your own reality.

Here is my reply in the thread I got... redirected to (ugh): http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9087382

I'm also Canadian, but I do have an agenda because this is a global community and I want my friends south of the border to live safe, prosperous lives. Not lives marred by that cheeto tyrant. Everyone deserves compassion, nobody should have the right to deny that. Not even the president. 

And trust me, I'd like nothing more than for Democrats and Republicans to get along and find common ground and compromise. The ideal forms of government are when the liberal left and the conservative right find solutions that best help the largest number of people. There is room for left-wing and right-wing politics in any democracy, as there needs to be a balance between personal liberty and freedom with the costs needed to ensure that society as a whole is better for everyone. 

The problem is that modern Republicans do not stand for what traditional right-wing politics are supposed to represent. Right-wing politics, at its core, stands for freedom from government control. The idea that a person should be able to do what they want without the government getting involved. But that's not what the modern right actually stands for. They represent xenophobia, controlling of other people's sex lives, pushing of religion, guns guns guns, denying climage change if it means more free capital, Controlling women's bodies, and tradition over progression. If they were crying only about the gubmint telling them what to do and how to live their lives, then I'd be more sympathetic. as it stands, they are trying to control others based on their morals while crying foul and claiming to be the victim. They are actively repressing gays, women, minorities, trans folk, atheists, and anyone else who has a modern or progressive lifestyle because it's not about freedom anymore, it's about maintaining the status quo at all costs. They don't care about freedom, they literally stand for the exact opposite of what they claim to be about all while decrying the left for their supposed transgressions while the Left is more centrist. 

So I don't know why people are whining when people rightly vilify the current republicans. They are villains. They legitimately are the bad guys. They're hypocrites, a black mark on their party's frankly positive overall history. They are a group that, as a whole, celebrate oppression while crying about how the left oppress them. They don't want freedom, they want freedom for them to do things the way they want without repercussion but don't want the same for those who have vastly different values. They want tradition and resist change, even positive change. They liked it better when black folks sat at the back of the bus, women were relegated to the kitchen, homos had the faggotry beaten out of them to turn them into real men, sports mattered more than academics, and God was the only source of morality. 

From my perspective, and what I've seen, Liberals/Democrats are pushing the values we need. They are the ones who accept the cost of net gain and understand that taxes need to be paid, social programs need to be maintained, and laws need to be reformed to change with the times while Republicans/Conservatives are resisting these changes and stomping around like petulant children becuase two guys wanted to fuck without having to worry about literally being lynched. 

I treat this situation as an us vs them mentality becuase that's what it's become, thanks almost entirely to the republicans. 

And keep in mind I truly believe a balance between right-wing and left-wing politics need to be found. I just don't think that the current 'right' has 'making the world a better place for everyone' on their mind and are too busy trying to keep things the way they were, regardless of how bad it is over time. 



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SpokenTruth said:
padib said:

Then how was he elected, I just don't understand what you're trying to say.

The electoral college and the mixed rules for each state.

Some states evenly split their electoral voters based on votes.  If 50% of the state votes Candidate A and 50% votes Candidate B then 50% of the electoral vote will equally represent both candidates, A and B..

Some states are winner takes all.  If 50.1% of that state votes for Candidate A then ALL of that states electoral votes go to Candidate A. Basically, it means that it completely ignores the votes from 49.9% of voters from that state.  Imagine how that would make you feel.

This is how you can win an election despite losing the popular vote by 3 million people. The problem is that this is never really been an issue until recently.  The popular vote and the electoral vote have almost always agreed 1:1.  But that's changed in the past 20 years.  Bush won the electorate despite losing the popular vote.  Now Trump won the electorate despite losing the popular vote. It is this recent divergence of electorate and popular vote that has driven many to rethink the wisdom of the Electoral College. Especially given that both favored one party and both happened very recently and was the largest margin differential since 1876.

In fact, it's happened only 5 times in US history.  The first was a different party structure but the 4 after have all favored Republicans. I'm sure you can understand how that raises eyebrows.

That's true, we have the same problem over here. I understand what he means now. Thanks for reminding me.

Runa216 said:
padib said:

I'm Canadian. I have no agenda here, just stating my point of view. How did you get 4 likes without even reading my original post which mentioned that?

You hate him, but you are not the democratic majority. That's my point.

Keep in mind, the hatred that is shared on all camps of political divide is what created Trump in the first place. If radical left-wing citizens didn't so alienate republicans like you're doing with me (I'm not even a republican for crying out loud), none of this would've happened. You are responsible for your own reality.

Here is my reply in the thread I got... redirected to (ugh): http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9087382

I'm also Canadian, but I do have an agenda because this is a global community and I want my friends south of the border to live safe, prosperous lives. Not lives marred by that cheeto tyrant. Everyone deserves compassion, nobody should have the right to deny that. Not even the president. 

And trust me, I'd like nothing more than for Democrats and Republicans to get along and find common ground and compromise. The ideal forms of government are when the liberal left and the conservative right find solutions that best help the largest number of people. There is room for left-wing and right-wing politics in any democracy, as there needs to be a balance between personal liberty and freedom with the costs needed to ensure that society as a whole is better for everyone. 

The problem is that modern Republicans do not stand for what traditional right-wing politics are supposed to represent. Right-wing politics, at its core, stands for freedom from government control. The idea that a person should be able to do what they want without the government getting involved. But that's not what the modern right actually stands for. They represent xenophobia, controlling of other people's sex lives, pushing of religion, guns guns guns, denying climage change if it means more free capital, Controlling women's bodies, and tradition over progression. If they were crying only about the gubmint telling them what to do and how to live their lives, then I'd be more sympathetic. as it stands, they are trying to control others based on their morals while crying foul and claiming to be the victim. They are actively repressing gays, women, minorities, trans folk, atheists, and anyone else who has a modern or progressive lifestyle because it's not about freedom anymore, it's about maintaining the status quo at all costs. They don't care about freedom, they literally stand for the exact opposite of what they claim to be about all while decrying the left for their supposed transgressions while the Left is more centrist. 

So I don't know why people are whining when people rightly vilify the current republicans. They are villains. They legitimately are the bad guys. They're hypocrites, a black mark on their party's frankly positive overall history. They are a group that, as a whole, celebrate oppression while crying about how the left oppress them. They don't want freedom, they want freedom for them to do things the way they want without repercussion but don't want the same for those who have vastly different values. They want tradition and resist change, even positive change. They liked it better when black folks sat at the back of the bus, women were relegated to the kitchen, homos had the faggotry beaten out of them to turn them into real men, sports mattered more than academics, and God was the only source of morality. 

From my perspective, and what I've seen, Liberals/Democrats are pushing the values we need. They are the ones who accept the cost of net gain and understand that taxes need to be paid, social programs need to be maintained, and laws need to be reformed to change with the times while Republicans/Conservatives are resisting these changes and stomping around like petulant children becuase two guys wanted to fuck without having to worry about literally being lynched. 

I treat this situation as an us vs them mentality becuase that's what it's become, thanks almost entirely to the republicans. 

And keep in mind I truly believe a balance between right-wing and left-wing politics need to be found. I just don't think that the current 'right' has 'making the world a better place for everyone' on their mind and are too busy trying to keep things the way they were, regardless of how bad it is over time. 

I see where you're coming from. It is important to underline those fundamental issues with certain people.

The issue though is, what sources tell us this? Are there polls that show this, or is it only what we hear from certain leaders, is it only what we see in certain closed circles. These issues exist on both sides, the far right and the far left. That's why I agree with your idea of balance. And also to point out that, while on these fundamental items Trump hasn't shown to be a leader for change, he hasn't (during his time as president) done something in the wrong direction (apart from what could be understood as xenophobia at the border). At the same time he did things to help the citizens of America stand taller on the international front, especially economically. Balance also begins in how we judge people, groups of people, it starts with us. Only people can make this world better, not just presidents or politicians. It's important that people stay cool and meet in the middle, come out of their comfort zones and debate to let the best ideas stand out. From my perspective, Trump was bashed by the media and the extreme left, or by disgruntled voters of the democratic party who hoped that Hilary would be elected, while most of what he was saying, to me, was not so offensive, and showed to me that he wanted to strengthen America. That leaves a bad feeling as an observer. Sure he was a jerk, he was abrasive, but that is his leadership style, aggressive. And in that sense it's both his strength and his weakness. But in the end, I felt that an anti-Trump movement was created at first by a minority, and it blew up into something that, to me, shouldn't really happen in America.



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padib said:

That's true, we have the same problem over here. I understand what he means now. Thanks for reminding me.

Runa216 said:

I'm also Canadian, but I do have an agenda because this is a global community and I want my friends south of the border to live safe, prosperous lives. Not lives marred by that cheeto tyrant. Everyone deserves compassion, nobody should have the right to deny that. Not even the president. 

And trust me, I'd like nothing more than for Democrats and Republicans to get along and find common ground and compromise. The ideal forms of government are when the liberal left and the conservative right find solutions that best help the largest number of people. There is room for left-wing and right-wing politics in any democracy, as there needs to be a balance between personal liberty and freedom with the costs needed to ensure that society as a whole is better for everyone. 

The problem is that modern Republicans do not stand for what traditional right-wing politics are supposed to represent. Right-wing politics, at its core, stands for freedom from government control. The idea that a person should be able to do what they want without the government getting involved. But that's not what the modern right actually stands for. They represent xenophobia, controlling of other people's sex lives, pushing of religion, guns guns guns, denying climage change if it means more free capital, Controlling women's bodies, and tradition over progression. If they were crying only about the gubmint telling them what to do and how to live their lives, then I'd be more sympathetic. as it stands, they are trying to control others based on their morals while crying foul and claiming to be the victim. They are actively repressing gays, women, minorities, trans folk, atheists, and anyone else who has a modern or progressive lifestyle because it's not about freedom anymore, it's about maintaining the status quo at all costs. They don't care about freedom, they literally stand for the exact opposite of what they claim to be about all while decrying the left for their supposed transgressions while the Left is more centrist. 

So I don't know why people are whining when people rightly vilify the current republicans. They are villains. They legitimately are the bad guys. They're hypocrites, a black mark on their party's frankly positive overall history. They are a group that, as a whole, celebrate oppression while crying about how the left oppress them. They don't want freedom, they want freedom for them to do things the way they want without repercussion but don't want the same for those who have vastly different values. They want tradition and resist change, even positive change. They liked it better when black folks sat at the back of the bus, women were relegated to the kitchen, homos had the faggotry beaten out of them to turn them into real men, sports mattered more than academics, and God was the only source of morality. 

From my perspective, and what I've seen, Liberals/Democrats are pushing the values we need. They are the ones who accept the cost of net gain and understand that taxes need to be paid, social programs need to be maintained, and laws need to be reformed to change with the times while Republicans/Conservatives are resisting these changes and stomping around like petulant children becuase two guys wanted to fuck without having to worry about literally being lynched. 

I treat this situation as an us vs them mentality becuase that's what it's become, thanks almost entirely to the republicans. 

And keep in mind I truly believe a balance between right-wing and left-wing politics need to be found. I just don't think that the current 'right' has 'making the world a better place for everyone' on their mind and are too busy trying to keep things the way they were, regardless of how bad it is over time. 

I see where you're coming from. It is important to underline those fundamental issues with certain people.

The issue though is, what sources tell us this? Are there polls that show this, or is it only what we hear from certain leaders, is it only what we see in certain closed circles. These issues exist on both sides, the far right and the far left. That's why I agree with your idea of balance. And also to point out that, while on these fundamental items Trump hasn't shown to be a leader for change, he hasn't (during his time as president) done something in the wrong direction (apart from what could be understood as xenophobia at the border). At the same time he did things to help the citizens of America stand taller on the international front, especially economically. Balance also begins in how we judge people, groups of people, it starts with us. Only people can make this world better, not just presidents or politicians. It's important that people stay cool and meet in the middle, come out of their comfort zones and debate to let the best ideas stand out. From my perspective, Trump was bashed by the media and the extreme left, or by disgruntled voters of the democratic party who hoped that Hilary would be elected, while most of what he was saying, to me, was not so offensive, and showed to me that he wanted to strengthen America. That leaves a bad feeling as an observer. Sure he was a jerk, he was abrasive, but that is his leadership style, aggressive. And in that sense it's both his strength and his weakness. But in the end, I felt that an anti-Trump movement was created at first by a minority, and it blew up into something that, to me, shouldn't really happen in America.

Life is my source. Actions speak louder than words and you can tell these are the values they have due to the bills they pass, the bills they don't pass, the way they act around others, the people they elect, the fundamentals of their campaigns. If a person who outwardly pushes ideals of racism and xenophobia gets elected, the logical conclusion is that those who voted for him support his racism and xenophobia. Same with ecology, same with religion and gun rights and sexuality and gender equality. You can easily decipher what matters to this party by observing what politicians they elect to represent them. 

Why is this so difficult to understand for most people. Nobody's ever going to come out and say "I hate all people from this race", becuase that would be stupid. But say "We're going to literally build a wall to keep these people out while simultaneously making it even harder for these people to enter our country legally to the point we might as well be proposing a ban" says the same thing while not sounding as bad. In the end, the result is the same, and 52 million people still voted for that shit stain of a human, and now the senate has agreed that his actions have gone too far. 

This is a pretty obvious and one-sided discussion.

Also, holy shit no Trump did not 'do anything to make America look good on the international front." Ask a thousand people from random parts all over the world and 995 of them will say Trump is a goddamn joke and making that country look bad. Because he is. 

You're also wrong about 'Trump just being bashed by the media'. Again, this isn't some bipartisan con job or smear campaign, he has a well-documented history of lies, ineptitude, childish behaviour, lies, aggression, hatred, lies, ignorance, sensationalism, lies, and more lies. He lies so much. He floats from one lie to the next it's gotten too hard to keep up with them. Literally over half the things he says are lies, fabrications, or blatant misrepresentations of the data. I can't listen to five minutes of him without having to pause once a second to subconsiously say "No, that's wrong, here's the real stat." He says shitty things and does shitty things and conjures up falsehoods with such consistency and fervor that I wouldn't be surprised if he woke himself up every morning by looking in the mirror and calling himself Jesus. Politifact polled everything he said this year (2019), and found he lied MORE THAN 2016, 2017, and 2018 BY A WIDE MARGIN, SO NOT ONLY DID HE GET ELECTED ON BULLSHIT BUT HE'S GETTING EMBOLDENED AND AS A RESULT IS GETTING WORSE.

Not you in particular, but I don't care if [the royal] you are a bigoted, traditonalist, religious, hate-filled person (Again, the royal 'you' as a general statement, not aimed at any one person), I don't know how anyone could trust Trump based on his assault on reality. He's so far removed from anything resembling the truth that I wonder if this is all a game to him or something, because there's absolutely no way he's actually that delusional. He just says what he says with so much confidence and repetition that morons believe him. 

Repeating the same lie doesn't make it the truth, no matter how sure of yourself you are. The fact that 52 million people fell for it makes me absolutely hate and disrespect at least 52 million Americans. Not the other 250 million, but the 52 million who voted for him? yeah, they're all fools. Or assholes. Or bigots. Or whatever. They just are. That's who they voted in to represent them. 

Actions do in fact speak louder than words. 



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SpokenTruth said:
padib said:

Then how was he elected, I just don't understand what you're trying to say.

The electoral college and the mixed rules for each state.

Some states evenly split their electoral voters based on votes.  If 50% of the state votes Candidate A and 50% votes Candidate B then 50% of the electoral vote will equally represent both candidates, A and B..

Some states are winner takes all.  If 50.1% of that state votes for Candidate A then ALL of that states electoral votes go to Candidate A. Basically, it means that it completely ignores the votes from 49.9% of voters from that state.  Imagine how that would make you feel.

This is how you can win an election despite losing the popular vote by 3 million people. The problem is that this is never really been an issue until recently.  The popular vote and the electoral vote have almost always agreed 1:1.  But that's changed in the past 20 years.  Bush won the electorate despite losing the popular vote.  Now Trump won the electorate despite losing the popular vote. It is this recent divergence of electorate and popular vote that has driven many to rethink the wisdom of the Electoral College. Especially given that both favored one party and both happened very recently and was the largest margin differential since 1876.

In fact, it's happened only 5 times in US history.  The first was a different party structure but the 4 after have all favored Republicans. I'm sure you can understand how that raises eyebrows.

Yep.

The problem is that Trump was never legitimately elected. Any election where the winner has less votes than the loser is not a legitimate election. The authority to rule a country does not come from God. It is not a piece of property that is passed down through family either. It comes from the consent of the people to be governed. When you do not have a majority of voters consenting to that government, then that government is not legitimate. And when not all adults can vote, then consent was never given either.

Some people may bristle at this idea, and say "Oh, but America is a Republic! The founding father's didn't want a Direct Democracy so they designed the Electoral College to decide elections!" These people have obviously never checked a map. North Korea calls itself a Republic. China calls itself a Republic. Stalin's USSR called itself a Republic! Furthermore, the Founding Fathers kept slaves, and thought only land owning white men should vote. They weren't perfect people. They were products of their time. We've fixed  their mistakes in the past when we abolished slavery, and gave suffrage. It's time to fix their mistake with the Electoral College.



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Runa216 said:

Life is my source. Actions speak louder than words and you can tell these are the values they have due to the bills they pass, the bills they don't pass, the way they act around others, the people they elect, the fundamentals of their campaigns. If a person who outwardly pushes ideals of racism and xenophobia gets elected, the logical conclusion is that those who voted for him support his racism and xenophobia. Same with ecology, same with religion and gun rights and sexuality and gender equality. You can easily decipher what matters to this party by observing what politicians they elect to represent them. 

Why is this so difficult to understand for most people. Nobody's ever going to come out and say "I hate all people from this race", becuase that would be stupid. But say "We're going to literally build a wall to keep these people out while simultaneously making it even harder for these people to enter our country legally to the point we might as well be proposing a ban" says the same thing while not sounding as bad. In the end, the result is the same, and 52 million people still voted for that shit stain of a human, and now the senate has agreed that his actions have gone too far. 

This is a pretty obvious and one-sided discussion.

Also, holy shit no Trump did not 'do anything to make America look good on the international front." Ask a thousand people from random parts all over the world and 995 of them will say Trump is a goddamn joke and making that country look bad. Because he is. 

You're also wrong about 'Trump just being bashed by the media'. Again, this isn't some bipartisan con job or smear campaign, he has a well-documented history of lies, ineptitude, childish behaviour, lies, aggression, hatred, lies, ignorance, sensationalism, lies, and more lies. He lies so much. He floats from one lie to the next it's gotten too hard to keep up with them. Literally over half the things he says are lies, fabrications, or blatant misrepresentations of the data. I can't listen to five minutes of him without having to pause once a second to subconsiously say "No, that's wrong, here's the real stat." He says shitty things and does shitty things and conjures up falsehoods with such consistency and fervor that I wouldn't be surprised if he woke himself up every morning by looking in the mirror and calling himself Jesus. Politifact polled everything he said this year (2019), and found he lied MORE THAN 2016, 2017, and 2018 BY A WIDE MARGIN, SO NOT ONLY DID HE GET ELECTED ON BULLSHIT BUT HE'S GETTING EMBOLDENED AND AS A RESULT IS GETTING WORSE.

Not you in particular, but I don't care if [the royal] you are a bigoted, traditonalist, religious, hate-filled person (Again, the royal 'you' as a general statement, not aimed at any one person), I don't know how anyone could trust Trump based on his assault on reality. He's so far removed from anything resembling the truth that I wonder if this is all a game to him or something, because there's absolutely no way he's actually that delusional. He just says what he says with so much confidence and repetition that morons believe him. 

Repeating the same lie doesn't make it the truth, no matter how sure of yourself you are. The fact that 52 million people fell for it makes me absolutely hate and disrespect at least 52 million Americans. Not the other 250 million, but the 52 million who voted for him? yeah, they're all fools. Or assholes. Or bigots. Or whatever. They just are. That's who they voted in to represent them. 

Actions do in fact speak louder than words. 

Yeah some people follow trump the same way as others idolize rockstars and actors,when they have a certain fantasy of them they often tend to hold on to that firmly and it makes their thinking partly closed when confronted with the stupid things that idolized person says and that results in the only lightly processing of everything that could be an outed negative compared to those that do not idolize him.

Actions do speak louder than words yes and most of the twitter warriors would do well to remember that,don't say good(only) but do good,it comes off as insincere when one only talks about it.



Whatever happens with Lord Orange, hopefully Americans wake up and implement much needed reforms in terms of holding elected officials to account.



SpokenTruth said:

Some states evenly split their electoral voters based on votes.  If 50% of the state votes Candidate A and 50% votes Candidate B then 50% of the electoral vote will equally represent both candidates, A and B.

Just a nitpick, but the two states that split their electoral votes, Nebraska and Maine, award 2 EVs to the statewide winner, while each congressional district gives 1 vote to its winner. That's how Obama got 1 EV from Nebraska in '08 and Trump got 1 from Maine in '16.