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Forums - Sony Discussion - Rumour: Sony's PS5 is definitely more powerful than Microsoft Project Scarlett

 

Which will be the more powerful?

PS5 53 63.86%
 
XB4 30 36.14%
 
Total:83
potato_hamster on 18 June 2019
RolStoppable said:
potato_hamster said:

That disguise being.... writing super detailed walkthroughs for RPGs he loved, many of which on Super Nintendo, that got him noticed and gave him his start in the gaming industry? What is it that makes his Nintendo fandom a disguise? Is it the alleged King DeDeDe tattoo that make it a disguise?

I don't have access to his sources. Do you? How do you know the specs of PS5 and Xbox Scarlett are not yet finalized. For all you know the PS5 will be announced at TGS and released November. I doubt that but it's certainly not impossible. I don't know if his claims are unreasonable, but neither do you. But,  certainly don't see any reason to not believe him.

If the PS5 and Xbox Scarlett are released and the PS5 is more powerful than the Xbox Scarlett, would that sway your opinion of Colin in any way? Because I'm betting it doesn't. In fact, let me ask you this, what would it take to convince you that Colin is a Nintendo fan? What would he have to do?

I am using common sense. The development kits a year and a half away from launch are definitely not the final version of a console, because manufacturers keep an eye on the prices of various components and make adjustments accordingly. Your counter-argument that the PS5 could be released this November is so incredibly poor that I have to wonder why you defend Moriarty time and time again. If the PS5 launched this year and therefore one year earlier than Scarlett (which was confirmed for holidays 2020), then why would anyone expect it to be more powerful than Scarlett? You should give your posts a lot more thought before you hit the submit button.

You're now assuming the PS5 is coming out holidays 2020. You're also assuming that a console launched a year earlier would not be more powerful than one launched after. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Xbox 360 more powerful than the PS3 in many ways, or at least on-par with the PS3's performance despite the year head start and the smaller price tag?

This is just one more instance of you letting your feelings get in the way of facts. Perhaps you should take your own advice on giving your own posts more thought.

Let me ask you again: what would it take to convince you that Colin is a Nintendo fan? What would he have to do?



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method114 on 18 June 2019
shikamaru317 said:
the-pi-guy said:

Since when has the quality of multiplats been a substantial driver for console sales?  Historically that has never been the case.  

The average gamer in a gen buys a console to play with their friends.  Since PS4 got a jump start, it continued momentum even when XB was cheaper because people were still going to buy the same system their friend already had.  

Friends is a factor for sure, but specs are definitely a factor for alot of people, myself included. If two consoles are somewhat similar in price and one of them is noticeably more powerful than the other, like PS4 vs XB1, people go with the more powerful one.

It's a factor for me for sure. Unfortunately that all goes out the window next gen for two reasons. Both of which hurt Xbox IMO.

1. Backwards compatibility. Very few people are going to be willing to give up their games for a new console that is slightly stronger. This goes for both sides but it hurts Xbox more for obvious reasons. I know for a fact I'm not giving up my PS4 library just for a stronger xbox. I was hesitant to give up my 360 for a PS4 because of achievements. 

2. Games. Xbox did horrible this gen with games and I think people will remember that. I remembered how poorly they did with the 360 towards the end of the gen and I saw PS3 still getting games and it bothered me a bit. It was part of the reason I switched as well (less powerful and the used games situation was the main reason though). Also with MS releasing all their games on PC and Xbox now PC players no longer have any reason to get an Xbox. While I know that's not very many people it's still less sales.



DonFerrari on 18 June 2019

What a clever Nintendo hater, not only have Nintendo tattoos, but also have good praises for games on SNES...

To bad Rol wasn't on the other threads calling some users fanboy because they were certain Xb4 will be stronger than PS5. Certain to a point of saying there would be no way MS would allow PS5 to be stronger.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

potato_hamster on 18 June 2019
RolStoppable said:
potato_hamster said:

You're now assuming the PS5 is coming out holidays 2020. You're also assuming that a console launched a year earlier would not be more powerful than one launched after. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Xbox 360 more powerful than the PS3 in many ways, or at least on-par with the PS3's performance despite the year head start and the smaller price tag?

This is just one more instance of you letting your feelings get in the way of facts. Perhaps you should take your own advice on giving your own posts more thought.

Let me ask you again: what would it take to convince you that Colin is a Nintendo fan? What would he have to do?

The general consensus on the power disparity between the 360 and PS3 is that the PS3 was the more powerful console because its exclusive games produced better results. The big catch was that it was more difficult to get good results from the PS3 than from the 360, but the topic isn't ease of development.

If you look at the history of PS and Xbox consoles, you'll see a clear trend that the console that had a headstart was always the weaker one.

PS2 vs. Xbox: Xbox launched later, was more powerful.
PS3 vs. 360: PS3 launched later, was more powerful.
PS4 vs. XB1: Launched at the same time, PS4 was more powerful.
PS4 Pro vs. XB1X: XB1X launched later, was more powerful.

The logical conclusion is that a PS5 that launches earlier won't be as powerful as its Xbox counterpart. When both launch at the same time, it's up in the air which one is more powerful. But unlike with the XB1, Microsoft has already said that Scarlet will be about gaming and that power will play a central role in the development process.

With both consoles being more than one year away, it's up in the air which one will be more powerful. Therefore making a definitive claim in either direction (like Moriarty did) is not reasonable.

As for your concluding questions, he would have to consistently give credit to Nintendo when credit is due. But what he actually does is bashing. One such instance was another time you defended him, when he said things along the lines of "Nintendo messed up with Switch." Another instance was when he responded to good Switch sales by downplaying them, showing that he lacks the decency to admit when he is wrong. Those aren't the actions of a Nintendo fan, but rather those of a Nintendo detractor. Lastly, his legendary sales prediction for the outcome of the 3DS vs. Vita battle was filled with contempt towards Nintendo's console and its games.

In short, he would have to behave like a Nintendo fan in order for me to consider that he is a legit Nintendo fan. A token gesture on small things here or there doesn't undo the trolling on the big things, hence why I call it a disguise.

Aww that's sweet how you're stretching to claim the PS3 "was more powerful" than the X360. Good one.

That's not a conclusion that a console launching before the other would be less powerful than the one launching later. That's an assumption. You're making an assumption. If the PS5 launches before the XB Scarlett and is more powerful, your assumption would be wrong. Concluding that this will not happen is foolish. What was that about thinking carefully about what you post?


News flash Rol: You don't decide what credit Nintendo deserves. Also, define "behave like a Nintendo fan". It seems to me that you have an image in your head of "what a Nintendo fan is" and anyone that doesn't fit that is faking it. That's not up to you. I know plenty of Nintendo fans that thought the Switch was a bad move before launch. I know some others that still prefer their 3DS to their Switch.  I know plenty of other Nintendo fans that aren't too happy about the games situation on the Switch and how that has evolved, and how it's AAA third party support is still total shit. I suppose in your mind none of those people are Nintendo fans?

Once again, treating your opinion like objective truth does nothing but make you look bad. But hey, who needs facts when they have feelings, right?



Pemalite on 18 June 2019
DonFerrari said:

Read "the-pi-guy" answer, on Assembly translating to what I said. You may claim it is a false statement, I would say it is at most imprecise.

And I don't remember any 3rd party going this route to optimize their code, nor any MS dev, not even other Sony devs on PS3. No other company was looking this deep in tailoring the code. That was even the reason gave for why the remaster took so long to be made when compared to other ports from PS3 to PS4.

Naughty Dog wasn't writing their entire engines in Assembly. They were writing it in C++. Evidence for that has been provided.
It was actually common for developers who wanted to keep the SPE's/SPU's at 100% utilization to interface via assembly... But the bulk of their code base? C++.

This was out of a need rather than a want because of the Cell processor, one of the reasons why it was difficult to program for... Generally no one makes games in pure Assembly or Machine Code, because there is no point... Even harder for big developers/publishers because they need a team to be working on a code base and C++ is very accessible to that end.

DonFerrari said:

That also doesn't deny the fact that MS going for multiplat on PCs with DirectX will probably use less of low level specialized code for Xbox on their games.

Game engine and API are separate pieces of kit.

A game engine can support multiple API's, if Microsoft builds a game for PC, there is no reason why it couldn't leverage Direct X, OpenGL or Vulkan (Even at the same time!) and on the Xbox, use it's low-level API... This actually used to be a common practice on the PC where a game like Unreal Tournament would support OpenGL, 3DFX Glide and Direct X on the PC.

drkohler said:
Time critical stuff is always programmed in Assembly language. Other stuff might be, too, if you have talented "Hand Assemblers" in your code grouip. As compilers mature over time, less and less code is hand assembled. That rule applies to everything, not only consoles. Of course, writing in Assembler takes more time and is more error prone than simply using a high-level language, hence one tries to stay away from it as much as possible.

As time goes on, I find it's being used less often.
It was very common in the SNES and prior days as there was a greater need to extract more out of the hardware... But by today it's a rarity, it might be used by a few smaller teams making a smaller scope game with some impressive aspects like Physics, but overall, the bulk of the work is C++... Compilers have gotten substantially better as well, which has eased the burden somewhat.

In regards to programming itself, my bread and butter is objective C.

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/31987/how-much-assembly-is-really-used-in-modern-game-code

fordy said:

That's because the more advanced compilers tend to exploit a lot of the CPUs hidden features that a lot of programmers never take into account, such as interleaving instructions for optimised use of SMT, re-ordering assembly language for better use of eg. Intel's branch prediction logic, down to storage order and spatial locality.

From what I can understand, the Cell used the PowerPC instruction set. However, the way it processed these instructions was different to IBMs other CPUs, due to the architecture of the Cell. Therefore, it would make sense why ND might have manually optimised some code using assembly language, especially if the PowerPC compilers used were optimised more toward the IBMs CPUs and not the Cell.

However, on an architecture as old and thoroughly optimised as x86/x64, the benefits of assembly language over a well advanced compiler range from absolute minimal to counterproductive.

That being said, there may be a little gain if compilers aren't yet optimised toward Zen2. However, I doubt this will be anything like we saw with the Cell.

It's a bit of a stretch either way as it was an uncommon practice on the Playstation 3 even for a tiny part of a games code base.

As for compilers on x86... From what I remember a few years back, x86 compilers tend to have an advantage on Intel processors as Intel worked with developers on making the compilers shine on their hardware, plus they had the majority of the market locked up... So AMD specific instructions tended to fall by the wayside. (I.E. 3D now!)

That is rapidly changing now of course, Zen/Zen+ has been on the market for a few years and Zen2 is quickly ramping up, AMD's market share is also growing rather significantly... So that is likely to have a flow on effect.

potato_hamster said:

You're now assuming the PS5 is coming out holidays 2020. You're also assuming that a console launched a year earlier would not be more powerful than one launched after. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Xbox 360 more powerful than the PS3 in many ways, or at least on-par with the PS3's performance despite the year head start and the smaller price tag?

This is just one more instance of you letting your feelings get in the way of facts. Perhaps you should take your own advice on giving your own posts more thought.

Yes, the Xbox 360 certainly had a multitude of technical advantages over the Playstation 3... It had a better memory system and it had a superior GPU.
But overall, the Cell did give the Playstation 3 the advantage in the end, it just took awhile for developers to get accustomed to the chip.

In saying that, it wasn't a dramatic advantage, it was still clearly a 7th gen machine outputting games that looked 7th gen.




--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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fordy on 19 June 2019
Pemalite said:
fordy said:

That's because the more advanced compilers tend to exploit a lot of the CPUs hidden features that a lot of programmers never take into account, such as interleaving instructions for optimised use of SMT, re-ordering assembly language for better use of eg. Intel's branch prediction logic, down to storage order and spatial locality.

From what I can understand, the Cell used the PowerPC instruction set. However, the way it processed these instructions was different to IBMs other CPUs, due to the architecture of the Cell. Therefore, it would make sense why ND might have manually optimised some code using assembly language, especially if the PowerPC compilers used were optimised more toward the IBMs CPUs and not the Cell.

However, on an architecture as old and thoroughly optimised as x86/x64, the benefits of assembly language over a well advanced compiler range from absolute minimal to counterproductive.

That being said, there may be a little gain if compilers aren't yet optimised toward Zen2. However, I doubt this will be anything like we saw with the Cell.

It's a bit of a stretch either way as it was an uncommon practice on the Playstation 3 even for a tiny part of a games code base.

As for compilers on x86... From what I remember a few years back, x86 compilers tend to have an advantage on Intel processors as Intel worked with developers on making the compilers shine on their hardware, plus they had the majority of the market locked up... So AMD specific instructions tended to fall by the wayside. (I.E. 3D now!)

That is rapidly changing now of course, Zen/Zen+ has been on the market for a few years and Zen2 is quickly ramping up, AMD's market share is also growing rather significantly... So that is likely to have a flow on effect.

Though I wasn't talking about feature sets like MMX or 3DNow. Even if Intel and AMD both make x86/x64 processors, the way they meet the instruction set requirements can be achieved using vastly different methods. Some use direct hardware, and the level of complexity determines how many clock cycles a result can be returned. Intel themselves have been using Microcode from a RISC based internal module since the days of the P6. It's those differences where compilers optimised for certain manufacturer hardware comes into account; It's still instruction code compliant with all compatible hardware, but performs better with specific hardware.

As an example, Intel optimised x86 code can utilise answers from branch instructions quicker, thanks to their stupidly complex, yet surprisingly accurate branch predictor logic. Likewise, AMD has logic where code executed in a certain order can achieve a result quicker than Intel hardware. Methods like prefetching and ILP have also made a huge difference in optimisation considerations.

The same goes for IBM PowerPCs and Cell; both use the PowerPC instruction set, but achieved those outputs from different hardware methods.

Compilers optimised for certain hardware are hardly new. I started x86 programming in 1995, and I remember them being around then; Usually Intel, AMD and Cyrix.



crissindahouse on 19 June 2019
DonFerrari said:
What a clever Nintendo hater, not only have Nintendo tattoos, but also have good praises for games on SNES...

To bad Rol wasn't on the other threads calling some users fanboy because they were certain Xb4 will be stronger than PS5. Certain to a point of saying there would be no way MS would allow PS5 to be stronger.

It's (or was) part of MS's roadmap to have the strongest console next gen. That's why people said that and there weren't reasons to call them out.

But since they didn't even mention two versions of their next console they might have changed it to only one which could also change the “our stronger version will beat PS5“ plan.

But yeah, it at least was MS's plan, that's a known fact.



setsunatenshi on 19 June 2019
crissindahouse said:
DonFerrari said:
What a clever Nintendo hater, not only have Nintendo tattoos, but also have good praises for games on SNES...

To bad Rol wasn't on the other threads calling some users fanboy because they were certain Xb4 will be stronger than PS5. Certain to a point of saying there would be no way MS would allow PS5 to be stronger.

It's (or was) part of MS's roadmap to have the strongest console next gen. That's why people said that and there weren't reasons to call them out.

But since they didn't even mention two versions of their next console they might have changed it to only one which could also change the “our stronger version will beat PS5“ plan.

But yeah, it at least was MS's plan, that's a known fact.

Having the most powerful hardware is not only an ever moving target, but MS would be in no position to assure they have the most powerful hardware. If anything, Xbox's plan for the next gen seem pretty obvious for some time now while Sony is keeping things much more secret.

So to hit that objective they would need to know 1) the specs of the PS5 base model, 2) be sure that Sony won't have 2 SKUs available at launch (similar to what MS seems to have in mind) and finally 3) be confident that no "pro" version of the PS5 would come out some time later.

This is all marketing smoke and mirrors for now, anything can happen at this point, so there's no reason to doubt the reports that one dev kit seems more powerful than the other, especially as we have a year before release and final specs can be updated in the meantime.



DonFerrari on 19 June 2019
crissindahouse said:
DonFerrari said:
What a clever Nintendo hater, not only have Nintendo tattoos, but also have good praises for games on SNES...

To bad Rol wasn't on the other threads calling some users fanboy because they were certain Xb4 will be stronger than PS5. Certain to a point of saying there would be no way MS would allow PS5 to be stronger.

It's (or was) part of MS's roadmap to have the strongest console next gen. That's why people said that and there weren't reasons to call them out.

But since they didn't even mention two versions of their next console they might have changed it to only one which could also change the “our stronger version will beat PS5“ plan.

But yeah, it at least was MS's plan, that's a known fact.

I would have no issue with anyone saying MS is aiming to have the most powerful or if that was their objective or roadmap.

But there is no legal way MS could be 100% sure as those people claimed. They can't make a contract with AMD with "assure XB4 HW is at least 10% more powerful than PS5" or discover the power of PS5 without spying. So there is no way MS could be certain. They could of course make a 800USD HW selling for 400USD that they think Sony wouldn't ever go above it, but nothing would stop Sony from doing it.

setsunatenshi said:
crissindahouse said:

It's (or was) part of MS's roadmap to have the strongest console next gen. That's why people said that and there weren't reasons to call them out.

But since they didn't even mention two versions of their next console they might have changed it to only one which could also change the “our stronger version will beat PS5“ plan.

But yeah, it at least was MS's plan, that's a known fact.

Having the most powerful hardware is not only an ever moving target, but MS would be in no position to assure they have the most powerful hardware. If anything, Xbox's plan for the next gen seem pretty obvious for some time now while Sony is keeping things much more secret.

So to hit that objective they would need to know 1) the specs of the PS5 base model, 2) be sure that Sony won't have 2 SKUs available at launch (similar to what MS seems to have in mind) and finally 3) be confident that no "pro" version of the PS5 would come out some time later.

This is all marketing smoke and mirrors for now, anything can happen at this point, so there's no reason to doubt the reports that one dev kit seems more powerful than the other, especially as we have a year before release and final specs can be updated in the meantime.

Exactly. You could be 90% confident MS will have the better HW, but before release or at least official information from at least one of the 2 you can't be sure.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

potato_hamster on 19 June 2019
RolStoppable said:
potato_hamster said:

Aww that's sweet how you're stretching to claim the PS3 "was more powerful" than the X360. Good one.

That's not a conclusion that a console launching before the other would be less powerful than the one launching later. That's an assumption. You're making an assumption. If the PS5 launches before the XB Scarlett and is more powerful, your assumption would be wrong. Concluding that this will not happen is foolish. What was that about thinking carefully about what you post?


News flash Rol: You don't decide what credit Nintendo deserves. Also, define "behave like a Nintendo fan". It seems to me that you have an image in your head of "what a Nintendo fan is" and anyone that doesn't fit that is faking it. That's not up to you. I know plenty of Nintendo fans that thought the Switch was a bad move before launch. I know some others that still prefer their 3DS to their Switch.  I know plenty of other Nintendo fans that aren't too happy about the games situation on the Switch and how that has evolved, and how it's AAA third party support is still total shit. I suppose in your mind none of those people are Nintendo fans?

Once again, treating your opinion like objective truth does nothing but make you look bad. But hey, who needs facts when they have feelings, right?

Pemalite agrees with my assessment that the PS3 was more powerful than the 360. I bet you won't dare to respond with the same condescending attitude to him.

You keep telling me how I am making assumptions when I say that a definitive call cannot be made at this point in time, but you should remember that Moriarty is making the biggest assumption of all in claiming that it is a sure thing that the PS5 will be more powerful than Scarlett. But instead of calling Moriarty out for his very questionable assumption, you keep defending him while attacking me. That's very hypocritical.

If someone said that they are a PS fan and made a prediction that Switch will become the bestselling console of all time while the PS5 will tread water because it's a crappy and boring console, then everyone would question this supposed PS fandom. That's Moriarty's situation when it comes to his supposed Nintendo fandom.

The types of Nintendo fans you mention are Nintendo fans, and in the order you mention them they are:

1. Clueless. I am aware that quite a few Nintendo fans are like that. I made threads to address them, among others, a good two years ago.
2. A matter of preference. There are still 3DS developers that have yet to put a game on Switch.
3. Another matter of preference, although this example reads like overexaggerated anecdotal evidence.

As for your concluding paragraph, I tell you what. If you get a moderator to agree with your posts in this thread, then I will reconsider my stance.

Pemalite is a big boy and doesn't need you speaking on his behalf or namedropping him to try and lend yourself credibility. But, see he actually bases his opinion on verifiable facts, supports his opinion when question, and most importantly, consistently demonstrates that he has done the research and understands the things he talks about the vast majority of the time. You on the other hand... I've let you dig yourself into a fine little hole there, and you're obvious to it.

See, as it turns out, you actually don't have a clue what Moriarty said, do you? You just read the headlines. You've been making blind assumption after blind assumption, when all you had to do was listen to a minute long audio clip, and I'll demonstrate just how you let your opinion of him sway your better judgement, and just let yourself assume that what he said must lack credibility. So here. I did you a favor and transcribed it for you.

"[Reiner] had been hearing rumors and I had been hearing stuff like this too, but I don't know if it's true - that the next playstation is definitively more powerful than [Xbox Scarlett]. That people that have access to both [developer kits] for making games are saying the playstation is more powerful. Now that is a scary notion to me, because if a machine is running a game at 120 frames in 8K, I just don't believe that that's even possible. I think you have to choose one or the other. Otherwise this machine is gonna be extremely expensive and if Playstation 5 can do even better than this - and I don't think they're saying they can do better than 120 or 8K - but if it's more powerful then how much are these machines gonna cost?"

But please, let me distill that down into a TL:DR because it's you know, one paragraph has proven too much in this case: That he's saying that the PS5 Dev Kit is rumored to be more powerful than the Xbox Scarlett Dev Kit, and that this could mean the PS5 ends up being more powerful than the Xbox Scarlett, which could mean that the PS5 will be far more expensive than he would like it to be.

Sacre bleu! Incroyable! Stupefiant!

Look at those "it is a sure thing" bold statements! ...that he never actually made! 

What was that about "questionable assumptions"?
What was that about "hypocrisy"?
What was that about "Clueless Nintendo fans"?

And yes, it would be a dick move to question someone's Playstation fandom if they really liked what they saw in the Switch, and thought it could sell better than the DS, and saw everything going on with game streaming, liked what they saw there, and thought that Sony releasing nothing more than a more powerful PS4 (If that's what PS5 turns out to be) wasn't doing enough to maintain or expand their position in the home console space. Those aren't totally unreasonable opinions to have in the gaming community. It would literally mean that they're not some blind fanboy and are open and receptive to new gaming experiences, not just supporting the products one particular company makes because they made them. I also fail to see what's so unfathomable that someone who spent their childhood playing as Link, Samus, Mario, Star fox, Smash Bros etc. day after day, year after year, would have more fondness and love for those games and those consoles than they would for a brand that only came into relevancy much later and has had a revolving door of hit franchises, even if that's their platform of choice for the last decade or so. There are tens of millions of Playstation and Xbox owners who have very similar stories who still consider themselves Nintendo fans even if they haven't bought or owned a Nintendo console in 15 years. They're not wrong to call themselves that even if they found the SNES classic much more desirable than anything on the Switch.

Also, laughable that you act like the opinions of a moderator will sway you when you have tomes worth of posts doing nothing but criticizing, questioning, undermining, and distrusting everything they say and do, and showing complete and utter fits of unsubstantiated paranoia that the mod team has it out for you. But all I have to do is to get one of the mod team, who almost definitely has a poor opinion of you to agree with my posts, when I know you're paranoid enough to think they could be doing that out of pure spite? So, hey moderators, what say you ;)