Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 10 14.93%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 40 59.70%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 17 25.37%
 
Total:67
SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

"And where is the psychology behind that?  You are describing a purely physical attribute, not a mixed physical and psychological one as gender identity is"

1). how would it be different? I'm saying the fat man feels like a muscular man inside and wants to identify as one despite not having that body type

2). just like how a man may claim he feels like a woman inside and wants to identify as one despite not having that body type

"An obese person cannot identify as muscular the same way one can identify as a gender because there is not a psychological factor."

3). so a fat man and a muscular man have less similarities psychologically than a biological male and a biological female?

"A transgender psychologically feels like and psychologically functions like the gender they are identifying with."

4). why would you presume that this can only occur with gender?

1). But "muscular man" is not a psychological condition.  It's physical. 

2). But "feeling like the (gender) man/woman" is psychological. Are you confusing gender and physical sex again?

3). You completely read that wrong because you failed to understand points 1 and 2 above.  Go back and start again.

4). Again, go back to points 1 and 2 and start again.  If you are ignoring the psychology of it all, then you will never understand it. Period.

You know what?  I'm just going to dumb it down for you.

If you are born a biological woman but have a male gender psychology, you will feel like a man on the inside despite a female biology.

But you cannot have an obese or muscular psychology regardless of gender or sex.

I really don't think I can make that any clearer for you.

"But "muscular man" is not a psychological condition.  It's physical. "

its not, I'm saying that the identity of the person is that of a muscular man

"But "feeling like the (gender) man/woman" is psychological. Are you confusing gender and physical sex again?"

If you are saying that gender is a psychological state and people can just identify that they should have physical attributes that they do not, why would this exclude muscles? why do you believe it can only apply to just female sexual characteristics or male sexual characteristics?

just for clarity you would not entertain someone who is fat identifying as someone who is muscular?

"But you cannot have an obese or muscular psychology regardless of gender or sex."

that's not true, there are significant differences in the psychological state of an obese person compared to a fit muscular person

it seems to me like you don't understand that your psychology is actually pretty variable beyond the influences sex has on it



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Pemalite said:
o_O.Q said:

"They aren't a fit muscular person regardless of what they think, so your point is entirely moot."

but a man is a woman if he identifies as one?

Clearly you don't understand the concepts of being transgender and transitioning if that is your line of thinking... But at this point with the several threads on the topic and lots of people chiming in to tell you how it all works... Probably anything I say at this point will not change your line of thinking anyhow.

o_O.Q said:

"Trans people for all intents and purposes can be the gender they identify as, as they can have the surgery, hormone treatment and other such things to adhere to stereotypical gender norms."

and what if they don't transition?

Transitioning is the process of changing ones gender presentation and/or sex characteristics in order to conform to your own internal gender identity, it's like you are trapped in a body that isn't your own.

Transitioning is a process, not a singular event... You don't just wake up and are automagically Transgender, you were born that way... Likewise you don't transition overnight to the gender you identify as, it's a process... And some people will spend a lifetime transitioning.

JWeinCom said:

Does adhering to stereotypes make one a certain gender?  I'd say that's a dangerous argument to make, as it calls into question the gender of those who do not adhere to gender norms.

It's more or less to do with how one sees themselves, rather than how everyone else perceives them.

Which is why it is a "dysphoria".

It is like going to the Gym, 90% of the people that go (myself included) are generally deemed relatively attractive by the population, but generally we are unhappy with the way we look because we feel we haven't achieved our physical "look" so to speak, which is why that is also a dysphoria.

SpokenTruth said:

You know what?  I'm just going to dumb it down for you.

If you are born a biological woman but have a male gender psychology, you will feel like a man on the inside despite a female biology.

But you cannot have an obese or muscular psychology regardless of gender or sex.


I really don't think I can make that any clearer for you.

Exactly, make sure he understands the concept before he argues against it.

"Clearly you don't understand the concepts of being transgender and transitioning"

I'm arguing against the idea that a man becomes a woman through simply identifying as one without transitioning

"Transitioning is a process, not a singular event... You don't just wake up and are automagically Transgender, you were born that way... Likewise you don't transition overnight to the gender you identify as, it's a process... And some people will spend a lifetime transitioning."

so... just to clarify you think transitioning or as jweincom would say "conforming to gender stereotypes"(looking and behaving as a man or a woman is expected to) is necessary to be regarded as the preferred gender for a trans person?

"It's more or less to do with how one sees themselves, rather than how everyone else perceives them.

Which is why it is a "dysphoria".

It is like going to the Gym, 90% of the people that go (myself included) are generally deemed relatively attractive by the population, but generally we are unhappy with the way we look because we feel we haven't achieved our physical "look" so to speak, which is why that is also a dysphoria."

you haven't understood jweincom's argument I believe and hopefully he'll work with you a little more

what he is saying I believe is that we need to work on breaking down this idea that a woman has look or behave a certain way and that a man has to look and behave a certain way, so if I'm right, for him transitioning is not necessary for a trans person to be their preferred gender



Pemalite said:
o_O.Q said:

"They aren't a fit muscular person regardless of what they think, so your point is entirely moot."

but a man is a woman if he identifies as one?

Clearly you don't understand the concepts of being transgender and transitioning if that is your line of thinking... But at this point with the several threads on the topic and lots of people chiming in to tell you how it all works... Probably anything I say at this point will not change your line of thinking anyhow.

o_O.Q said:

"Trans people for all intents and purposes can be the gender they identify as, as they can have the surgery, hormone treatment and other such things to adhere to stereotypical gender norms."

and what if they don't transition?

Transitioning is the process of changing ones gender presentation and/or sex characteristics in order to conform to your own internal gender identity, it's like you are trapped in a body that isn't your own.

Transitioning is a process, not a singular event... You don't just wake up and are automagically Transgender, you were born that way... Likewise you don't transition overnight to the gender you identify as, it's a process... And some people will spend a lifetime transitioning.

JWeinCom said:

Does adhering to stereotypes make one a certain gender?  I'd say that's a dangerous argument to make, as it calls into question the gender of those who do not adhere to gender norms.

It's more or less to do with how one sees themselves, rather than how everyone else perceives them.

Which is why it is a "dysphoria".

It is like going to the Gym, 90% of the people that go (myself included) are generally deemed relatively attractive by the population, but generally we are unhappy with the way we look because we feel we haven't achieved our physical "look" so to speak, which is why that is also a dysphoria.

SpokenTruth said:

You know what?  I'm just going to dumb it down for you.

If you are born a biological woman but have a male gender psychology, you will feel like a man on the inside despite a female biology.

But you cannot have an obese or muscular psychology regardless of gender or sex.


I really don't think I can make that any clearer for you.

Exactly, make sure he understands the concept before he argues against it.

I get what dysphoria is, but that really wasn't my question.

I guess what I don't understand about trans people is whether or not they are transitioning because they actually feel like another gender, or is it because they like to behave in a certain manner which would be acceptable for the other gender, but not for them. In other words is the dysphoria based on what they are vs society's expectations, or what they want to do vs society's expectations?

For instance, if we had a world where a man was not judged for wearing dresses, makeup, being emotional, or other things that are typically considered feminine, would we see a decrease in the amount of people transitioning from male to female?  



o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

Gender identity is biological.

It seems like the only person who is dismissing biology here is you.

"Gender identity is biological."

the only thing presented so far has been male and female brains which according to some scientists has been discredited

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/meet-the-neuroscientist-shattering-the-myth-of-the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon

instead they argue that it is the environment which shapes the brain to differentiate

beyond that when you were speaking of biological characteristics before weren't you talking about other characteristics?

" When we think of an individual who holds these attributes of "femaleness" we may think of someone who is shorter and has breasts (generally biological characteristics)"

interesting

We spoke not too long ago about twin studies (which are used to determine whether a trait is biological or a product of environment) which indicated that identical twins are more likely than fraternal twins to both identify as transgendered, which indicates that there is a strong biological component to gender identity.

As for your other point, I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. I am in no way contradicting that quote with anything I am saying or arguing. I feel as if you may be misinterpreting something again, but you haven't given me enough info to know what.

JWeinCom said:

I guess what I don't understand about trans people is whether or not they are transitioning because they actually feel like another gender, or is it because they like to behave in a certain manner which would be acceptable for the other gender, but not for them. In other words is the dysphoria based on what they are vs society's expectations, or what they want to do vs society's expectations?

For instance, if we had a world where a man was not judged for wearing dresses, makeup, being emotional, or other things that are typically considered feminine, would we see a decrease in the amount of people transitioning from male to female?  

I think the answer to that question is mostly conjecture as we don't really have any way of knowing how individuals would act in a world that is so different from our own. While I think that is an interesting conversation to have, I don't know if it is really possible to have such a conversation when one of the individuals in the room is not acting in good faith.



o_O.Q said:

"But "muscular man" is not a psychological condition.  It's physical. "

1). its not, I'm saying that the identity of the person is that of a muscular man

"But "feeling like the (gender) man/woman" is psychological. Are you confusing gender and physical sex again?"

2). If you are saying that gender is a psychological state and people can just identify that they should have physical attributes that they do not, why would this exclude muscles? why do you believe it can only apply to just female sexual characteristics or male sexual characteristics?

3). just for clarity you would not entertain someone who is fat identifying as someone who is muscular?

"But you cannot have an obese or muscular psychology regardless of gender or sex."

4). that's not true, there are significant differences in the psychological state of an obese person compared to a fit muscular person.

1). Then you don't understand that an identity is psychological.  You believe it to be physical.

2). See above. Muscle mass is not psychological.

3). No, I do not. Because fat and muscular are not psychological.

4). Then you fail to grasp the difference between psychological conditions with emotions. Certainly a muscular person may be more confident than an obese person but that it not an inherent psychological factor of being muscular.  You can be muscular and still be insecure.  Or obese and still be confident.  Musculature and obesity affect a psychology, they are not inherent traits of a psychology.

By the way, gender reassignment surgery. You cannot just walk into a facility and get reassigned just because you want to.  You have to pass a battery of prerequisites to qualify as a candidate. For most centers, you must be officially diagnosed with gender dysphoria, be recommended by 2 or more mental health specialists in the field, begin hormone treatment for at least 1 year, have a documented "living the life" test completed (proving you actually live as your claimed gender), are declared emotionally stable, are medically healthy, and (optionally, depending on facility) have the support of friends and family.

My point is that this isn't taken lightly and is backed by rigorous qualifications to ensure a person truly has the psychology they purport to have. Your weightlifter example earlier could never be qualified for gender reassignment surgery. 

What I mean is the people who are transgender (whether surgically reassigned or not) have a psychology that matches their intended gender expression.

Last edited by SpokenTruth - on 05 September 2019

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

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JWeinCom said:

I get what dysphoria is, but that really wasn't my question.

I guess what I don't understand about trans people is whether or not they are transitioning because they actually feel like another gender, or is it because they like to behave in a certain manner which would be acceptable for the other gender, but not for them. In other words is the dysphoria based on what they are vs society's expectations, or what they want to do vs society's expectations?

For instance, if we had a world where a man was not judged for wearing dresses, makeup, being emotional, or other things that are typically considered feminine, would we see a decrease in the amount of people transitioning from male to female?  

I am part of the LGBT community... And from what a ton of Trans people have told me, it's that they feel they are trapped in a body that doesn't belong to them.
It has absolutely nothing to do with society expectations, their mannerisms/how they act.
They simply feel they aren't the person they are supposed to be, which I can relate with. Hence the Gym example.

Just because a man wears a dress, makeup, is emotional... And has feminine outward characteristics, doesn't make them Trans, they can still identify as the sex they were born with.
Whether if such judgement has any effect on the amount of people undergoing transition? That's a good question, Transitioning/Transgender seems more common now, because people are more free to be who they want to be in the modern era.

In short, they don't need to live in the closet.

o_O.Q said:

"Clearly you don't understand the concepts of being transgender and transitioning"

I'm arguing against the idea that a man becomes a woman through simply identifying as one without transitioning

And the reason why your argument is redundant is because you don't understand the fundamentals of being transgender and transitioning.

o_O.Q said:

so... just to clarify you think transitioning or as jweincom would say "conforming to gender stereotypes"(looking and behaving as a man or a woman is expected to) is necessary to be regarded as the preferred gender for a trans person?

No.

o_O.Q said:

you haven't understood jweincom's argument I believe and hopefully he'll work with you a little more

what he is saying I believe is that we need to work on breaking down this idea that a woman has look or behave a certain way and that a man has to look and behave a certain way, so if I'm right, for him transitioning is not necessary for a trans person to be their preferred gender

I think he can present his own argument rather than have you possibly alter his intention.

But you are right, men and women aren't obligated to act or behave in a certain way. - But that isn't what being Trans is about, that isn't what Transitioning is about either.





--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
JWeinCom said:

I get what dysphoria is, but that really wasn't my question.

I guess what I don't understand about trans people is whether or not they are transitioning because they actually feel like another gender, or is it because they like to behave in a certain manner which would be acceptable for the other gender, but not for them. In other words is the dysphoria based on what they are vs society's expectations, or what they want to do vs society's expectations?

For instance, if we had a world where a man was not judged for wearing dresses, makeup, being emotional, or other things that are typically considered feminine, would we see a decrease in the amount of people transitioning from male to female?  

I am part of the LGBT community... And from what a ton of Trans people have told me, it's that they feel they are trapped in a body that doesn't belong to them.
It has absolutely nothing to do with society expectations, their mannerisms/how they act.
They simply feel they aren't the person they are supposed to be, which I can relate with. Hence the Gym example.

Just because a man wears a dress, makeup, is emotional... And has feminine outward characteristics, doesn't make them Trans, they can still identify as the sex they were born with.
Whether if such judgement has any effect on the amount of people undergoing transition? That's a good question, Transitioning/Transgender seems more common now, because people are more free to be who they want to be in the modern era.

In short, they don't need to live in the closet.


I think in general we should try to limit gender reassignment surgery as much as possible.  Not on any kind of moral grounds or anything, but simply on the basis that we always want to use the least extreme medical intervention as possible, and surgery is a pretty extreme option.  If a doctor/psychiatrist decides it's truly the best option, then I'm for it, but if there is a way to make trans people feel comfortable with themselves without surgery, I think that would be preferable.  

As for feeling trapped in a body, I just don't get that.  As a male, I really have no concept of what being a man means beyond physical factors and in most, but definitely not all, circumstances being more in line with societal expectations for a man than a woman.  I don't know what "feeling like a man" inside would mean beyond acting in line with societal expectations of a man. And I'm, not sure the gym example is comparable.  Like, do you feel that you want to be more muscular or fit than you are?  I get that.  But do you feel like you somehow really are that fit and muscular on the inside and it's just somehow not showing?  That I don't really get.  And from my understanding, being trans is less about wanting to be the other gender, but more of feeling that you already are.  

Maybe it's just one of those things you have to experience, and because I identify with the gender I was born as, I haven't ever really had to question it.  But it's still something I can't really wrap my head around.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 05 September 2019

o_O.Q said:
Pemalite said:

Clearly you don't understand the concepts of being transgender and transitioning if that is your line of thinking... But at this point with the several threads on the topic and lots of people chiming in to tell you how it all works... Probably anything I say at this point will not change your line of thinking anyhow.

Transitioning is the process of changing ones gender presentation and/or sex characteristics in order to conform to your own internal gender identity, it's like you are trapped in a body that isn't your own.

Transitioning is a process, not a singular event... You don't just wake up and are automagically Transgender, you were born that way... Likewise you don't transition overnight to the gender you identify as, it's a process... And some people will spend a lifetime transitioning.

It's more or less to do with how one sees themselves, rather than how everyone else perceives them.

Which is why it is a "dysphoria".

It is like going to the Gym, 90% of the people that go (myself included) are generally deemed relatively attractive by the population, but generally we are unhappy with the way we look because we feel we haven't achieved our physical "look" so to speak, which is why that is also a dysphoria.

Exactly, make sure he understands the concept before he argues against it.

"Clearly you don't understand the concepts of being transgender and transitioning"

I'm arguing against the idea that a man becomes a woman through simply identifying as one without transitioning

"Transitioning is a process, not a singular event... You don't just wake up and are automagically Transgender, you were born that way... Likewise you don't transition overnight to the gender you identify as, it's a process... And some people will spend a lifetime transitioning."

so... just to clarify you think transitioning or as jweincom would say "conforming to gender stereotypes"(looking and behaving as a man or a woman is expected to) is necessary to be regarded as the preferred gender for a trans person?

"It's more or less to do with how one sees themselves, rather than how everyone else perceives them.

Which is why it is a "dysphoria".

It is like going to the Gym, 90% of the people that go (myself included) are generally deemed relatively attractive by the population, but generally we are unhappy with the way we look because we feel we haven't achieved our physical "look" so to speak, which is why that is also a dysphoria."

you haven't understood jweincom's argument I believe and hopefully he'll work with you a little more

what he is saying I believe is that we need to work on breaking down this idea that a woman has look or behave a certain way and that a man has to look and behave a certain way, so if I'm right, for him transitioning is not necessary for a trans person to be their preferred gender

You're half right.  I think breaking down those ideas is beneficial not just for trans people but people in general.  But, I would not say that transitioning is not necessary.   I don't have nearly enough knowledge or experience in this matter to tell a trans person what is or is not necessary for them.  What I'm saying is that I don't understand the reason why a physical transformation is necessary. But just because I don't understand the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.



JWeinCom said:

1). I think in general we should try to limit gender reassignment surgery as much as possible.  Not on any kind of moral grounds or anything, but simply on the basis that we always want to use the least extreme medical intervention as possible, and surgery is a pretty extreme option.  If a doctor/psychiatrist decides it's truly the best option, then I'm for it, but if there is a way to make trans people feel comfortable with themselves without surgery, I think that would be preferable.  

2). As for feeling trapped in a body, I just don't get that.  As a male, I really have no concept of what being a man means beyond physical factors and in most, but definitely not all, circumstances being more in line with societal expectations for a man than a woman.  I don't know what "feeling like a man" inside would mean beyond acting in line with societal expectations of a man. Maybe it's just one of those things you can't get unless you experience it.

1). But gender reassignment surgery is only undertaken if medically cleared.  I'll copy my text I posted earlier.

"You cannot just walk into a facility and get reassigned just because you want to. You have to pass a battery of prerequisites to qualify as a candidate. For most centers, you must be officially diagnosed with gender dysphoria, be recommended by 2 or more mental health specialists in the field, begin hormone treatment for at least 1 year, have a documented "living the life" test completed (proving you actually live as your claimed gender), are declared emotionally stable, are medically healthy, and (optionally, depending on facility) have the support of friends and family."

2). You are correct at the end. You and I will never likely experience that psychology and emotions. I'm cis male and cannot imagine what it must feel like to be in the wrong sex or gender but I can fully sympathize with those that do go through that because I understand the psychology behind it.

One does not need to have cancer to analyze it.

Last edited by SpokenTruth - on 05 September 2019

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

JWeinCom said:
Pemalite said:

I am part of the LGBT community... And from what a ton of Trans people have told me, it's that they feel they are trapped in a body that doesn't belong to them.
It has absolutely nothing to do with society expectations, their mannerisms/how they act.
They simply feel they aren't the person they are supposed to be, which I can relate with. Hence the Gym example.

Just because a man wears a dress, makeup, is emotional... And has feminine outward characteristics, doesn't make them Trans, they can still identify as the sex they were born with.
Whether if such judgement has any effect on the amount of people undergoing transition? That's a good question, Transitioning/Transgender seems more common now, because people are more free to be who they want to be in the modern era.

In short, they don't need to live in the closet.


I think in general we should try to limit gender reassignment surgery as much as possible.  Not on any kind of moral grounds or anything, but simply on the basis that we always want to use the least extreme medical intervention as possible, and surgery is a pretty extreme option.  If a doctor/psychiatrist decides it's truly the best option, then I'm for it, but if there is a way to make trans people feel comfortable with themselves without surgery, I think that would be preferable.  

As for feeling trapped in a body, I just don't get that.  As a male, I really have no concept of what being a man means beyond physical factors and in most, but definitely not all, circumstances being more in line with societal expectations for a man than a woman.  I don't know what "feeling like a man" inside would mean beyond acting in line with societal expectations of a man. And I'm, not sure the gym example is comparable.  Like, do you feel that you want to be more muscular or fit than you are?  I get that.  But do you feel like you somehow really are that fit and muscular on the inside and it's just somehow not showing?  That I don't really get.  And from my understanding, being trans is less about wanting to be the other gender, but more of feeling that you already are.  

Maybe it's just one of those things you have to experience, and because I identify with the gender I was born as, I haven't ever really had to question it.  But it's still something I can't really wrap my head around.

I can't speak for other countries... But surgery is certainly a "last resort" here in Australia pretty much.
You need to actually have multiple evaluations, see a psychiatrist and more before you can attempt it from what I have been told by the Trans people in my life.

Then you have the cost... It cost my mate 10 thousand dollars for just the top surgery. (Removal of breasts.)
And bottom surgery is going to be more significant from a cost perspective... Something like 30 grand. - So it's not just a walk in the park by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes I feel less fit and muscular on the inside, or rather I don't feel I am what I should be physically, although other people will see my muscular definition and be pretty envious... It's difficult to explain, it's a dysphoria though.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--