Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 10 14.93%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 40 59.70%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 17 25.37%
 
Total:67
o_O.Q said:

what I'm asking is what happens if an obese person identifies as a fit muscular person? do we play along with that or not?

And where is the psychology behind that?  You are describing a purely physical attribute, not a mixed physical and psychological one as gender identity is.

An obese person cannot identify as muscular the same way one can identify as a gender because there is not a psychological factor.

A transgender psychologically feels like and psychologically functions like the gender they are identifying with.
A trans-body shaper (as we'll call your mythical person) does not psychologically feel like or psychologically function like the body shape they identify with because that's not a thing. There is not a psychology difference there. 



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

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o_O.Q said:

ok so my argument is that you are dismissing biology because you are stating here that the only thing taken into consideration is 'identity"

Gender identity is biological.

It seems like the only person who is dismissing biology here is you.



o_O.Q said:
Pemalite said:

You're conflating two different things... So lets try to step away from that. - Obesity and being Transgender are completely different.

If you don't care what people do with their life, why do you have such an issue with Trans people? You have been abundantly clear about your disdain for that minority.

hold on, lets make a distinction here

I can criticise the ideas at play here without criticising the right of trans people to do whatever they want

which is my position in just about everything, let people do whatever the hell they want as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others

but at the same time ideas that are illogical should be criticised

"Obesity and being Transgender are completely different"

I'm talking about identity not obesity itself... there are obviously obese people who identify as being fat

what I'm asking is what happens if an obese person identifies as a fit muscular person? do we play along with that or not?

They aren't a fit muscular person regardless of what they think, so your point is entirely moot.

Trans people for all intents and purposes can be the gender they identify as, as they can have the surgery, hormone treatment and other such things to adhere to stereotypical gender norms.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
o_O.Q said:

hold on, lets make a distinction here

I can criticise the ideas at play here without criticising the right of trans people to do whatever they want

which is my position in just about everything, let people do whatever the hell they want as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others

but at the same time ideas that are illogical should be criticised

"Obesity and being Transgender are completely different"

I'm talking about identity not obesity itself... there are obviously obese people who identify as being fat

what I'm asking is what happens if an obese person identifies as a fit muscular person? do we play along with that or not?

They aren't a fit muscular person regardless of what they think, so your point is entirely moot.

Trans people for all intents and purposes can be the gender they identify as, as they can have the surgery, hormone treatment and other such things to adhere to stereotypical gender norms.

Does adhering to stereotypes make one a certain gender?  I'd say that's a dangerous argument to make, as it calls into question the gender of those who do not adhere to gender norms.



Pemalite said:
o_O.Q said:

hold on, lets make a distinction here

I can criticise the ideas at play here without criticising the right of trans people to do whatever they want

which is my position in just about everything, let people do whatever the hell they want as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others

but at the same time ideas that are illogical should be criticised

"Obesity and being Transgender are completely different"

I'm talking about identity not obesity itself... there are obviously obese people who identify as being fat

what I'm asking is what happens if an obese person identifies as a fit muscular person? do we play along with that or not?

They aren't a fit muscular person regardless of what they think, so your point is entirely moot.

Trans people for all intents and purposes can be the gender they identify as, as they can have the surgery, hormone treatment and other such things to adhere to stereotypical gender norms.

"They aren't a fit muscular person regardless of what they think, so your point is entirely moot."

but a man is a woman if he identifies as one?

"Trans people for all intents and purposes can be the gender they identify as, as they can have the surgery, hormone treatment and other such things to adhere to stereotypical gender norms."

and what if they don't transition?



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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

ok so my argument is that you are dismissing biology because you are stating here that the only thing taken into consideration is 'identity"

Gender identity is biological.

It seems like the only person who is dismissing biology here is you.

"Gender identity is biological."

the only thing presented so far has been male and female brains which according to some scientists has been discredited

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/meet-the-neuroscientist-shattering-the-myth-of-the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon

instead they argue that it is the environment which shapes the brain to differentiate

beyond that when you were speaking of biological characteristics before weren't you talking about other characteristics?

" When we think of an individual who holds these attributes of "femaleness" we may think of someone who is shorter and has breasts (generally biological characteristics)"

interesting



JWeinCom said:
Pemalite said:

They aren't a fit muscular person regardless of what they think, so your point is entirely moot.

Trans people for all intents and purposes can be the gender they identify as, as they can have the surgery, hormone treatment and other such things to adhere to stereotypical gender norms.

Does adhering to stereotypes make one a certain gender?  I'd say that's a dangerous argument to make, as it calls into question the gender of those who do not adhere to gender norms.

exactly make sure he understands the ideology before he argues for it



SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

what I'm asking is what happens if an obese person identifies as a fit muscular person? do we play along with that or not?

And where is the psychology behind that?  You are describing a purely physical attribute, not a mixed physical and psychological one as gender identity is.

An obese person cannot identify as muscular the same way one can identify as a gender because there is not a psychological factor.

A transgender psychologically feels like and psychologically functions like the gender they are identifying with.
A trans-body shaper (as we'll call your mythical person) does not psychologically feel like or psychologically function like the body shape they identify with because that's not a thing. There is not a psychology difference there. 

"And where is the psychology behind that?  You are describing a purely physical attribute, not a mixed physical and psychological one as gender identity is"

how would it be different? I'm saying the fat man feels like a muscular man inside and wants to identify as one despite not having that body type

just like how a man may claim he feels like a woman inside and wants to identify as one despite not having that body type

"An obese person cannot identify as muscular the same way one can identify as a gender because there is not a psychological factor."

so a fat man and a muscular man have less similarities psychologically than a biological male and a biological female?

"A transgender psychologically feels like and psychologically functions like the gender they are identifying with."

why would you presume that this can only occur with gender?

I can't honestly say that I've seen a case like this, but I get the idea that if I was to start digging I'd find something

regardless I'm presenting this as a hypothetical



o_O.Q said:

"And where is the psychology behind that?  You are describing a purely physical attribute, not a mixed physical and psychological one as gender identity is"

1). how would it be different? I'm saying the fat man feels like a muscular man inside and wants to identify as one despite not having that body type

2). just like how a man may claim he feels like a woman inside and wants to identify as one despite not having that body type

"An obese person cannot identify as muscular the same way one can identify as a gender because there is not a psychological factor."

3). so a fat man and a muscular man have less similarities psychologically than a biological male and a biological female?

"A transgender psychologically feels like and psychologically functions like the gender they are identifying with."

4). why would you presume that this can only occur with gender?

1). But "muscular man" is not a psychological condition.  It's physical. 

2). But "feeling like the (gender) man/woman" is psychological. Are you confusing gender and physical sex again?

3). You completely read that wrong because you failed to understand points 1 and 2 above.  Go back and start again.

4). Again, go back to points 1 and 2 and start again.  If you are ignoring the psychology of it all, then you will never understand it. Period.

You know what?  I'm just going to dumb it down for you.

If you are born a biological woman but have a male gender psychology, you will feel like a man on the inside despite a female biology.

But you cannot have an obese or muscular psychology regardless of gender or sex.

I really don't think I can make that any clearer for you.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

o_O.Q said:

"They aren't a fit muscular person regardless of what they think, so your point is entirely moot."

but a man is a woman if he identifies as one?

Clearly you don't understand the concepts of being transgender and transitioning if that is your line of thinking... But at this point with the several threads on the topic and lots of people chiming in to tell you how it all works... Probably anything I say at this point will not change your line of thinking anyhow.

o_O.Q said:

"Trans people for all intents and purposes can be the gender they identify as, as they can have the surgery, hormone treatment and other such things to adhere to stereotypical gender norms."

and what if they don't transition?

Transitioning is the process of changing ones gender presentation and/or sex characteristics in order to conform to your own internal gender identity, it's like you are trapped in a body that isn't your own.

Transitioning is a process, not a singular event... You don't just wake up and are automagically Transgender, you were born that way... Likewise you don't transition overnight to the gender you identify as, it's a process... And some people will spend a lifetime transitioning.

JWeinCom said:

Does adhering to stereotypes make one a certain gender?  I'd say that's a dangerous argument to make, as it calls into question the gender of those who do not adhere to gender norms.

It's more or less to do with how one sees themselves, rather than how everyone else perceives them.

Which is why it is a "dysphoria".

It is like going to the Gym, 90% of the people that go (myself included) are generally deemed relatively attractive by the population, but generally we are unhappy with the way we look because we feel we haven't achieved our physical "look" so to speak, which is why that is also a dysphoria.

SpokenTruth said:

You know what?  I'm just going to dumb it down for you.

If you are born a biological woman but have a male gender psychology, you will feel like a man on the inside despite a female biology.

But you cannot have an obese or muscular psychology regardless of gender or sex.


I really don't think I can make that any clearer for you.

Exactly, make sure he understands the concept before he argues against it.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--