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Torillian said:
KLXVER said:

Well nothing Trump says will make it better. They hate Trump. So he needs to do something. I was just wondering what he could do.

Forcing federal agents to make their names or at very least their agency clear when arresting someone would be a good start to calm things down. There's really no need for this gestapo level of secrecy when detaining your own citizens. 

Absolutely. That is weird I agree.



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KLXVER said:
SpokenTruth said:

5). What the hell does the increased crime rate in NYC and Chicago have to do with unnamed federal agencies abducting protestors in Portland?

5. I just named two places where there is increase in crime, but sure, Portland too.

Do you have any proof that the crime rate in Portland is increasing? What I've looked up shows no indication of that.

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/article/763191



...

Torillian said:
KLXVER said:

5. I just named two places where there is increase in crime, but sure, Portland too.

Do you have any proof that the crime rate in Portland is increasing? What I've looked up shows no indication of that.

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/article/763191

Well I just assumed since they have secret police deployed there. Did check it and shootings are up 380% in July:

https://katu.com/news/local/portland-sees-380-increase-in-shootings-for-july-compared-to-2019



SpokenTruth said:
KLXVER said:

1. Of course there is. Less police means less protection. Also riots have formed because of these protests. That wouldnt have happened if there were no protests. Nothing against the peaceful protesters. They are great. Im just saying shitty people will take advantage of situations like these.

2. The fact that its way down from the 90s just seem to suggest that the US was way worse back then. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

3. No. Thats why I wanted to learn what the correct procedure is in this case.

4. Take money away from or give less to. Thats what defunding means. If thats not the case, then they should use a more appropriate word. Like "reform". Which is something I am on board with.

5. I just named two places where there is increase in crime, but sure, Portland too.

1). First, police don't prevent murders.  I'm sure you can understand how that works. Second, these increased murders are not taking place at the protests. Third, you seem to be suggesting that these murders would not be happening if the protests had not happened.  Again, you need to show us how they are connected.  You're just making a wild assumption that they are.  Correlation is not causation.

2). It's relevant because of the second question I asked in Point 2 which you skipped.  So I'll answer it for you.  No, we didn't.  We didn't go all gestapo back then even when crime was way worse.  In fact, this whole thing is against several state and federal laws. Ever heard of the Miranda Rights/Warning?

3). Then stop making statements about something you don't know about.  Get that info first, then let's talk about it. And to answer the question for you, no we did not.  This is highly illegal.

4). Yep, you need to look it up.  The irony is that we want a system more like yours.  Norway doesn't send cops to most non-violent incidents. Social services, mental health, substance abuse, homelessness, etc...  In the US, the police take on all those roles and more with basically no training for any of it.  Defunding simply means reallocating the funds the police department would use for those calls, issues, and appropriate them for dedicated services.  You can call if police reform but we've been calling it that for decades now and nothing has every happened.  Now things are actually moving forward.

5). So you can prove Portland has seen a significant rise in murders that warrant the use of unnamed federal agencies to abduct protestors?

Can we just take a step back and realize you are talking about murder rate increases while we are talking about are illegally abducted protestors? Can you equate the protestors as being the actual murderers?

Well that is were the discussion went. If you only want to talk about one thing, then fair enough. 

Obviously most protesters havent hurt anyone, but there are people who have been hurt, had their businesses destroyed or people have been killed because of the protests. Not all the people doing these protests care about race or police violence. They are just mad and want to do harm.



SpokenTruth said:
KLXVER said:

Well I just assumed since they have secret police deployed there. Did check it and shootings are up 380% in July:

https://katu.com/news/local/portland-sees-380-increase-in-shootings-for-july-compared-to-2019

"He says they don't know what's caused the increase, "
-Portland Police Chief Chuck Lovell.

The chief of police doesn't know why the increase exist but you seem to think it's protestors.  Protestors that are destroying their cities, to be specific.

Dont just cherry pick. He also says the corona virus and race relations cant be ignored.



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SpokenTruth said:
KLXVER said:

Well that is were the discussion went. If you only want to talk about one thing, then fair enough. 

Obviously most protesters havent hurt anyone, but there are people who have been hurt, had their businesses destroyed or people have been killed because of the protests. Not all the people doing these protests care about race or police violence. They are just mad and want to do harm.

Do you understand the difference between a protest and a riot?  Protestors and rioters? 

KLXVER said:

Dont just cherry pick. He also says the corona virus and race relations cant be ignored.

He said they can't be ignored, not that they were the direct cause.   He still doesn't know....which is exactly what I quoted.

Could be Covid-19, could be race relations....I don't know.  Could be Martians.  I don't know. Could be right wing false flag operations, I don't know.  Do you know what I do know though?  That the Chief of Police and I both don't know what's caused the increase. Do you?

Are you telling me that the riots just happen to take place at the same time as these protests? That they are not related at all? Come on, man.

I can only give you my opinion on why I think its to do with race relations. Just like you can only give me your opinion on what you think it is.



SpokenTruth said:
KLXVER said:

Are you telling me that the riots just happen to take place at the same time as these protests? That they are not related at all? Come on, man.

I can only give you my opinion on why I think its to do with race relations. Just like you can only give me your opinion on what you think it is.

Where in the world did I say they were unrelated?  Stop reaching for crap no one is saying.

Minneapolis:
May 26. Floyd was killed in Minneapolis.
May 27. Protests in the afternoon.  Riots at night.
May 28. Protests in the afternoon.  Riots at night.
May 29. Protests in the afternoon.  Riots at night.
May 30. Protests.
And on and on.

Rest of the nation:
May 26. Floyd was killed in Minneapolis.
May 30. Protests in the afternoon.  Sparse riots at night in major cities.
May 31. Protests.
And on and on.

They have been intertwined as well. Its not just protests happened then and the riots happened later. The fact that you are separating the two makes it sound like they are two completely different groups. What starts out as a peaceful protest turns into a riot at times. Both the people peacefully protesting and many of the people rioting have the BLM shirts and are condemning the police. They are the same group. Some are just better and more peaceful than others. 



KLXVER said:
SpokenTruth said:

OK, time to back away from the right wing media.  No cities are being destroyed. The worst it got was Minneapolis back in late May and it was largely limited to a 5 mile stretch of 1 street.

Crime is up in places like Chicago and New York. Cops are being assaulted. The people in charge there just talks about defunding the police and blaming Trump. At some point they need to do something. 

Defunding the police is doing something. Our current policing and criminal justice systems are not the best ways to fight crime. We should invest in our communities to fight crime in healthy ways, instead of waging a war against them.

Pretty sure we already had this conversation, but that could have been someone else...

Also, I'm not sure if you noticed, but there is currently a global pandemic going on, which also has an effect on crime rates. Doesn't really make sense to compare this year to last when you are unable to account for the effect of the pandemic.



SpokenTruth said:
KLXVER said:

They have been intertwined as well. Its not just protests happened then and the riots happened later. The fact that you are separating the two makes it sound like they are two completely different groups. What starts out as a peaceful protest turns into a riot at times. Both the people peacefully protesting and many of the people rioting have the BLM shirts and are condemning the police. They are the same group. Some are just better and more peaceful than others. 

I'm not sure where you get your media from but it's doing you a disservice.  The rioters are comprised of several sub-groups.

1. Instigator Type A. Those who came to riot for the sake of rioting/looting, etc...  These people will either be part of the earlier peaceful protest or will show up later.
2. Instigator Type B.  These are false flag operators.  They incite the riot and then leave.
3. Protestor Type A.  These are peaceful protestors that were incited by Instigator Type A.
4. Protestor Type B.  These are peaceful protestors that were incited by Instigator Type B.
5. Protestor Type C.  These are peaceful protestors that were incited by instigator Type C (overly aggressive police).

That is the make-up of the rioters.  Who, again, only rioted for a few days in Minneapolis in late May and 1 night sparsely in other cities.  A whole month and a half ago.

So yes, some rioters were also protestors.  Some were just there to riot.  Some only rioted when incited.  Most cities noted a 10:1 protestor to rioter ratio.  Say you had 2,000 people protest during the day, about 200 would be part of the riot later that night. 

So now that you know all this and when they happened and where, should we be using unnamed federal agencies to illegally abduct and detain peaceful protestors 1.5 months later who have nothing to do with those riots or the increased murder rates? 

Oh, and it's about to expand beyond Portland. Acting Homeland Security Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli told NPR, "...this is a posture we intend to continue not just in Portland but in any of the facilities that we’re responsible for around the country.” The justification for this action is that some people are defacing federal property. Yep, graffiti.  That's what they are using to justify the use of secret police to illegally abduct and detain peaceful citizens.

You are severely downplaying the riots. Police officers are still being hurt. Statues are still being teared down, burned or destroyed. Same with some businesses. Regular people are still affected by these smaller riots in different ways. It may not be at the level it was at first, but they are still happening. 

Also you keep separating people into several groups to defend the movement, but its ok that all police officers must suffer for what very, very few of them have done? At least take a step back and try to see it from a different perspective.



sundin13 said:
KLXVER said:

Crime is up in places like Chicago and New York. Cops are being assaulted. The people in charge there just talks about defunding the police and blaming Trump. At some point they need to do something. 

Defunding the police is doing something. Our current policing and criminal justice systems are not the best ways to fight crime. We should invest in our communities to fight crime in healthy ways, instead of waging a war against them.

Pretty sure we already had this conversation, but that could have been someone else...

Also, I'm not sure if you noticed, but there is currently a global pandemic going on, which also has an effect on crime rates. Doesn't really make sense to compare this year to last when you are unable to account for the effect of the pandemic.

Its doing nothing but keeping the police morale down. Two officers were just killed answering a domestic disturbance call and you want psychologists and social workers to answer stuff like that instead. A simple speeding ticket can turn into shootout. We need the police.