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Torillian said:

On the second point "commercial receptacles for penises" I'm curious how your viewpoint takes into account the existence of male prostitutes. 

Very easily on two points:

1) Male prostitutes compose a fringe minority of the total and you know it (i.e. you're dismissing the rule for the exception), AND...

2) The sex industry is the only business on Earth that pays women more than men on an hourly basis. Every other line of work pays men higher rates than women on average. That the men are paid less than the women in hourly rates goes to discourage men from participating and conversely encourages women to do so. And it also reflects what we as a society value in women. We just simply don't prize men either exclusively or primarily for their sexual capacity, which is why male prostitutes are less valued than their female counterparts.



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Jaicee said:
Torillian said:

On the second point "commercial receptacles for penises" I'm curious how your viewpoint takes into account the existence of male prostitutes. 

Very easily on two points:

1) Male prostitutes compose a fringe minority of the total and you know it (i.e. you're dismissing the rule for the exception), AND...

2) The sex industry is the only business on Earth that pays women more than men on an hourly basis. Every other line of work pays men higher rates than women on average. That the men are paid less than the women in hourly rates goes to discourage men from participating and conversely encourages women to do so. And it also reflects what we as a society value in women. We just simply don't prize men either exclusively or primarily for their sexual capacity, which is why male prostitutes are less valued than their female counterparts.

1) I'd never looked it up so I was unsure but a quick google seems to indicate that male prostitutes are 20% of the total. I don't think that's such a fringe minority that it can be dismissed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-42-million-prostitutes-in-the-world-and-heres-where-they-live-2012-1

2) You don't think this is just market forces at work? Men are the ones paying for sex most often, more men prefer women than prefer men, women are more demanded even when taking into account the increase supply, women get paid more. 



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Jaicee said:
RolStoppable said:

Resentment of women happens to be an ingredient because the killers tend to hate lots of groups and at times really everyone. But using that ingredient to portray a massacre as being caused by misogyny is almost as bad as blaming violent video games when violent video games were among the interests of a killer. Your initial post complained about news reporting to fit a certain narrative, but you are trying to pursue a certain narrative yourself.

Wow. Just wow. I don't even know how to respond to this. I mean by this logic, SURELY half of all mass shooters should be female.

I'm not trying to create a narrative, I'm trying to point out demographic and attitudal patterns among mass shooters that to me seem very obvious and worthy of some scrutiny.

I also said precisely nothing about video games and did not definitively conclude as to what the main motives of the Dayton shooter were, but rather highlighted that women seem to have been especially high on his proverbial list of hates.

If we go by what you have presented it would appear that we could reduce mass shootings by getting these young guys laid.  If that is the case, something needs to be done right away.



Torillian said:

1) I'd never looked it up so I was unsure but a quick google seems to indicate that male prostitutes are 20% of the total. I don't think that's such a fringe minority that it can be dismissed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-42-million-prostitutes-in-the-world-and-heres-where-they-live-2012-1

2) You don't think this is just market forces at work? Men are the ones paying for sex most often, more men prefer women than prefer men, women are more demanded even when taking into account the increase supply, women get paid more. 

To your first "point", 20% seems like a very small percentage to me. I think it's disingenuous of you to just dismiss the fact that 80% of prostitutes are female and that the vast majority of buyers are male as though these are insignificant ratios.

To your second point, the fact that market forces spontaneously favor the interests of men in the context of a larger, patriarchal social reality is neither surprising nor a good excuse as far as I'm concerned. (You may have noticed that I'm not the biggest fan of the free market.)



Jaicee said:
Torillian said:

1) I'd never looked it up so I was unsure but a quick google seems to indicate that male prostitutes are 20% of the total. I don't think that's such a fringe minority that it can be dismissed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-42-million-prostitutes-in-the-world-and-heres-where-they-live-2012-1

2) You don't think this is just market forces at work? Men are the ones paying for sex most often, more men prefer women than prefer men, women are more demanded even when taking into account the increase supply, women get paid more. 

To your first "point", 20% seems like a very small percentage to me. I think it's disingenuous of you to just dismiss the fact that 80% of prostitutes are female and that the vast majority of buyers are male as though these are insignificant ratios.

To your second point, the fact that market forces spontaneously favor the interests of men in the context of a larger, patriarchal social reality is neither surprising nor a good excuse as far as I'm concerned. (You may have noticed that I'm not the biggest fan of the free market.)

Wouldn't women making more for their work favor the interests of women?



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sundin13 said:

Wouldn't women making more for their work favor the interests of women?

Nope, not if sex "work" is the only field that does so! Like I said, it reflects what we as a society value in women, and the consequences of that value system redound to all women, not just the prostituted ones.



Jaicee said:
Torillian said:

1) I'd never looked it up so I was unsure but a quick google seems to indicate that male prostitutes are 20% of the total. I don't think that's such a fringe minority that it can be dismissed.

https://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-42-million-prostitutes-in-the-world-and-heres-where-they-live-2012-1

2) You don't think this is just market forces at work? Men are the ones paying for sex most often, more men prefer women than prefer men, women are more demanded even when taking into account the increase supply, women get paid more. 

To your first "point", 20% seems like a very small percentage to me. I think it's disingenuous of you to just dismiss the fact that 80% of prostitutes are female and that the vast majority of buyers are male as though these are insignificant ratios.

To your second point, the fact that market forces spontaneously favor the interests of men in the context of a larger, patriarchal social reality is neither surprising nor a good excuse as far as I'm concerned. (You may have noticed that I'm not the biggest fan of the free market.)

So your argument would be that these forms of sex work (porn, prostitution, surrogacy) should be illegal as they are detrimental to the equality of women as a whole?



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Machiavellian said:

If we go by what you have presented it would appear that we could reduce mass shootings by getting these young guys laid.  If that is the case, something needs to be done right away.

That would be the incel movement's pseudo-logic, yes, to which end they've devised all sorts of proposals like "state girlfriend programs" and state-sponsored rape houses and other psychotic solutions that seem ripped right out of The Handmaid's Tale.

I, on the other hand, feel that what we actually need to do is reach a collective understanding that no one is simply entitled to a yes answer.



Torillian said:

So your argument would be that these forms of sex work (porn, prostitution, surrogacy) should be illegal as they are detrimental to the equality of women as a whole?

Essentially. I'm not in favor of punishing the prostituted women or what have you for being sucked into these sorts of fields, as I really feel like that's a kind of victim-blaming, but I do think it should be a criminal offense to buy sex, that online pornography should be blocked, that no one should be allowed to hire an impoverished woman to use her as a womb, have her endure a full pregnancy and post-partum depression, and then take what is by all rights and reason her child away from her, etc. No one should be allowed to do these kinds of sick, parasitic things! There's no pay that's high enough to justify their existence.



Jaicee said:
Machiavellian said:

If we go by what you have presented it would appear that we could reduce mass shootings by getting these young guys laid.  If that is the case, something needs to be done right away.

That would be the incel movement's pseudo-logic, yes, to which end they've devised all sorts of proposals like "state girlfriend programs" and state-sponsored rape houses and other psychotic solutions that seem ripped right out of The Handmaid's Tale.

I, on the other hand, feel that what we actually need to do is reach a collective understanding that no one is simply entitled to a yes answer.

Why would you need to go to such extremes when the oldest profession is available since man and woman walked this earth.  If you find a young adult exhibiting the symptoms you stated, you just buy him some ass, case close.  Back when I was young you had to fight to get to that magic box, these days you basically just have to show up.