By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

SpokenTruth said:
jason1637 said:

The Black community who are arguably the most disenfranchised minority group want Biden to be their voice and it was shown in last nights results.

Didn't we also learn that the majority of them made up their mind less than 3 days before even voting?  I'm just going to leave it at that. 

Actually - what are you even implying?



Around the Network
SpokenTruth said:
Raven said:

You conveniently skipped 2008 and by extension 2012.

You just had this discussion with Uran.  There was nothing convenient about skipping it other than the fact he already explained exactly what I was going to explain to you.  Simply stated, Obama came off as a progressive with his rhetoric and campaigning but his policies have proven otherwise. 

I didn't have a discussion with Uran, he repeated his pre-determined beliefs at me as he has done many times. Obama's rhetoric was that of an optimistic moderate, working within the system and compromising with Republicans in order to make major change. That's not really what this current brand of progressivism is looking to accomplish, so I'm not sure why Obama doesn't count.



uran10 said:
jason1637 said:

Okay lets say Bernie were to get elected. There is no way in hell his budget would get passed the way he images to even have enough money to fund his Climate change proposals in the current political climate. First issue.

His job training proposal wont work because like Yang pointed out before the math shows that job training programs have a low success rate. Second issue.

Not everyone wants to be forced to give up their job and work for the government. Third issue.

Compared to Biden Bernies chances of being elected are low and the chances of him actually passing his policies are even lower.

Okay first of all, that's what taxing the rich is for, he has a page explaining how to pay for all his policies. 2nd of all, do we really have time to care about a budget when we wont have 11 years to stop climate change? Do you not realize how dire this is?

2nd of all that may be the case but I also think Bernie's job guarantee along with a UBI that wasn't trash working together is the best way to go forward and I need Bernie to be pushed on this issue. But the truth is people want to work.

3rd of all LOL. Biden has a 0% chance of beating trump. You're running hillary 2.0 while Bernie has been beating trump in 95% of the polls, probably more than that for the last 4 years. Bernie is the more electable candidate by far. Centrist take L's during presidential elections, that's not changing especially considering Joe Biden clearly has Dementia.

Tha math does not even add up. It's estimate that Bernies tax plan would generate tops 3.3 trillion in 10 years. His Climate change plan alone will cost 16 trillion in 10 years (3rd party estimates say it will actually cost more but lets go with bernies estimates). Last fiscal year the US government spent 4.4 trillion. Over 10 years thats like 44 trillion. Bernie wants to cut the military budget by 1.25 trilion . That leaves 42.75 trillion. Now lets say he uses taxes to fully cover his climate change proposal. 16 trillion minus 3.3 trillion is 12.7 trillion extra that Bernie will need to convince the house an senate to spend over 10 years. And thats not including his other expensive proposals. And yes we need to care about a budget. If Bernie cant pass a budget he cant get most of his proposals done.

As of now Bernie does not support UBI. If he did along with his job guarantee program it would make more sense since job training wont work.

Bernie gets less Black support than Clinton. Biden has more black support than them both. This put Michigan on the table for Trump. Biden in polling better in Pennsylvania because he is doing better in the suburbs and is attractive to Obam-Trump voters. Pennslyvania is on the table for Trump with Bernie. Florida wont like that Bernie is a socialist meaning that Trump can have an easier shot winning against Bernie. The electoral college and the African American demographic favors Biden more over Bernie.



Raven said:
SpokenTruth said:

You just had this discussion with Uran.  There was nothing convenient about skipping it other than the fact he already explained exactly what I was going to explain to you.  Simply stated, Obama came off as a progressive with his rhetoric and campaigning but his policies have proven otherwise. 

I didn't have a discussion with Uran, he repeated his pre-determined beliefs at me as he has done many times. Obama's rhetoric was that of an optimistic moderate, working within the system and compromising with Republicans in order to make major change. That's not really what this current brand of progressivism is looking to accomplish, so I'm not sure why Obama doesn't count.

Like with anything you have to put things in the correct context. Both progressivism and centrism were different even back in '08 than it is in today's climate. By all accounts Obama was running a progressive campaign and had progressive policies especially when compared to Clinton. He had won over a lot of the progressives in the party with his platform because he was the only one to pivot to their side. That's why he doesn't count as a centrist when he ran.



 

tsogud said:
jason1637 said:

If Biden becomes the nominee leftist can continue to bash him eif they want but they should understand that this bashing is helping Trump. I'm not saying you gotta back the guy fully because you might not agree with him on everything but if you're concerned about beating Trump but share negative comments and videos about the guy trying to beat Trurmp you're part of the reason he could

I'm not really arguing about the medias bias towards Sanders. I agree that the media has treated Sanders very poorly.

It's not fair how Sander is being treated but once the primary ended in 2016 Bernie Bros still went after Clinton on twitter and im seeing signs of that happening again.

I want to save the planet but it should be done in a way that can mitigate the damage that would be caused from people losing jobs. Biden has policies for this. The EPA and the paris agreement all helped to solve this problem.

Biden has a plan that can give healthcare to those that can't afford it and to those that want to leave their providers.

The Black community who are arguably the most disenfranchised minority group want Biden to be their voice and it was shown in last nights results.

Bernie's climate plan directly addresses that issue as well and goes a step further in having a federal jobs guarantee and training for the transition off of fossil fuels.

Yes Biden's healthcare plan tries to make healthcare affordable but that's the entire problem. Healthcare should be guaranteed for all not affordable for some. That article I linked a few posts back explains the inherent problems with Biden's proposal.

The black community are split generationally with young black voters overwhelmingly supporting Bernie and older black voters overwhelmingly supporting Joe. Older black voters and older voters in general vote in larger numbers than younger voters for various socioeconomical reasons; for example there are more younger people in the workforce that have two/three jobs, younger people have the kinds of jobs that don't readily allow them to take a day or hour off to vote, etc.

Bernie's plans will lift some of the burden being felt by the younger generation specifically younger poc and that will, hopefully in turn, allow them to have the agency they need to vote and let their voice be heard.

The time for incrementalism is over, we had our chance to go as slow as we wanted to regarding climate change but our govt was too busy being bought out by special interests to care. Now we have no choice but to change drastically our way of life and thinking to even hope to save our planet from irreparable damage.

A Joe Biden presidency with his current platform would've been great progress in the 80's but it doesn't cut it now.

I already explained the issues with Bernies federal job guarantee a few post back. Basickly the maht shows that job training how a low sucess rate and people dont want to be forced to work for the government. 

Bidens plan is guaranteed for all who wants it. If everyone in America wants free healthcare they jusy gotta opt in to Bidens plan. He's giving people a choice.

What matters at the end of the dya is who votes. Even if young Black people support you it does not matter if they dont vote for you at the end of the day. Black voters overhwemingly voted for Biden and want him to be their voice.

Well his plans arent resinating with younger people as much as expected because young voter turnour is down. Biden also has plans to help younger generation btw.

Climate change is a big issue but if we want things actually done we gotta take strategic steps. In a perfect world we could go all out but its not a perfect world. Lately here in NYC they banned plastic bags the other day and every paper bag i've used has broken on me. My bag fell today and my lunch i bought today was ruined so i had to rebuy it. This bill should have been a transition over a certain amount of time not just an automatic thing because it will just cause more problems.

Biden was more progressive than Obama in 2008 tho and has moved along with the times. Some of his policies today would have not been thing he supported years ago.



Around the Network
SpokenTruth said:
jason1637 said:

Tha math does not even add up. It's estimate that Bernies tax plan would generate tops 3.3 trillion in 10 years. His Climate change plan alone will cost 16 trillion in 10 years (3rd party estimates say it will actually cost more but lets go with bernies estimates). Last fiscal year the US government spent 4.4 trillion. Over 10 years thats like 44 trillion. Bernie wants to cut the military budget by 1.25 trilion . That leaves 42.75 trillion. Now lets say he uses taxes to fully cover his climate change proposal. 16 trillion minus 3.3 trillion is 12.7 trillion extra that Bernie will need to convince the house an senate to spend over 10 years. And thats not including his other expensive proposals. And yes we need to care about a budget. If Bernie cant pass a budget he cant get most of his proposals done.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-does-bernie-pay-his-major-plans/

It's all there.

I can find plenty of sources that say that his proposals will cost more than he says they will and that his taxes to generate money wont be enough.

For example his climate change proposals will be payed by his tax plan according to that site but i literally just did the math and it does not add up.



tsogud said:
Raven said:

I didn't have a discussion with Uran, he repeated his pre-determined beliefs at me as he has done many times. Obama's rhetoric was that of an optimistic moderate, working within the system and compromising with Republicans in order to make major change. That's not really what this current brand of progressivism is looking to accomplish, so I'm not sure why Obama doesn't count.

Like with anything you have to put things in the correct context. Both progressivism and centrism were different even back in '08 than it is in today's climate. By all accounts Obama was running a progressive campaign and had progressive policies especially when compared to Clinton. He had won over a lot of the progressives in the party with his platform because he was the only one to pivot to their side. That's why he doesn't count as a centrist when he ran.

Being a bit more progressive than Hillary Clinton doesn't make you not moderate. Obama was still a pro-compromise moderate Democrat that used his optimism to inspire people that the change could occur from inside the system to accomplish great things. Progressives in the party obviously liked this because it was someone who seemed forward thinking, fresh, and with newer ideas, but it didn't make him any less of a moderate.



Raven said:
tsogud said:

Like with anything you have to put things in the correct context. Both progressivism and centrism were different even back in '08 than it is in today's climate. By all accounts Obama was running a progressive campaign and had progressive policies especially when compared to Clinton. He had won over a lot of the progressives in the party with his platform because he was the only one to pivot to their side. That's why he doesn't count as a centrist when he ran.

Being a bit more progressive than Hillary Clinton doesn't make you not moderate. Obama was still a pro-compromise moderate Democrat that used his optimism to inspire people that the change could occur from inside the system to accomplish great things. Progressives in the party obviously liked this because it was someone who seemed forward thinking, fresh, and with newer ideas, but it didn't make him any less of a moderate.

By that logic Warren is basically a moderate who is upfront and more than willing to compromise but champions progressive policies and ideas and thus she's considered by many to be a progressive, so the same can be said with Obama in '08. And he wasn't a bit more progressive he was a lot more progressive. Regardless, it doesn't even matter because Biden's politics are not gonna win out in the general if he's the nominee. Populism whether it's fake or not wins over neoliberal corporatism.



 

jason1637 said:
SpokenTruth said:

https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-does-bernie-pay-his-major-plans/

It's all there.

I can find plenty of sources that say that his proposals will cost more than he says they will and that his taxes to generate money wont be enough.

For example his climate change proposals will be payed by his tax plan according to that site but i literally just did the math and it does not add up.

Go back to the drawing board then.



 

tsogud said:
jason1637 said:

I can find plenty of sources that say that his proposals will cost more than he says they will and that his taxes to generate money wont be enough.

For example his climate change proposals will be payed by his tax plan according to that site but i literally just did the math and it does not add up.

Go back to the drawing board then.

So when someone points out that the math might not add up and other economist mention Sanders might not raise enough to fund his plans and you respond "Go back to the drawing board then." It does not help your case.