Forums - General Discussion - Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

dark_gh0st_b0y said:
JWeinCom said:

Science (or rather the findings of science) and religion can both lead to bad consequences if misapplied.  The difference is the necessity of each.

of course they can, but the reason you underestimate the impact of religion this much is first because you take Jesus teachings for granted/common sense and do not realize the impact they had/have in the world, and second because you as an individual do not need it (I was actually atheist until the age of 25!), religion is the strongest long-term mental help one can have - if done right of course - and scientific studies prove just that!! less religious West Europe countries have higher depression rates than more religious East Europe countries even though they are richer!

Science leads to incredibly positive changes for society (vaccines, antiseptics, psychological breakthroughs, food production, etc.) that cannot be gained through other means.  Sacrificing all of the benefits to eliminate the potential harms would be a devastating loss for society.

of course!! there wouldn't be video games without scientific progress :P the point is that science does not disprove Christianity, therefore there is no damn reason to compare the two, and second, science can cure the body in most cases, but not the mind!! Christianity in its true and pure form can heal the soul

While religion can also lead to benefits (community, charity), these are benefits that we can have without religion.  Studies done on religiosity and quality of life indicate that we can abandon religion without losing very much, and doing so would rid of a lot harm.

without losing much? findings show that religious people are happier and more satisfied with their quality of life than atheists (research done in Christian countries) why on earth would you want to abolish something that is proved to make people happier?

and as I said above, Christianity collapses, values and common sense things that go with it will start to loosen in the decades as it is happening now, people who need religion will move to Islam which will make things very very bad

did you know that there is a 40% increase in cheating related murders since the 90s? this is because as people get less religious, the 6th commandment that forbids cheating is violated!! more divorces, more kids growing up not in a normal family, more mental problems... this is just one example of how the collapse of Christianity will vanish values, and lead to a more 'anything goes' society of mental problems, no thanks :/

I'd also say there is an important distinction between side effects and primary effects.

If we take for instance Christianity, misogyny, prejudice against homosexuality, support of slavery, and so on are not side effects of religion.  They are accurate interpretations of the source material itself. For example, there is a specific commandment to kill a man who lies with another man. This isn't a side effect, it's a primary effect.

in which source material does Christianity support misogyny and slavery? this is very wrong... homosexuality issue is only 5% of the population, so it is a side effect, I need to do more research on it to be fair, but it is not mentioned in the ten commandments, therefore LGBT is not a big sin at all... cheating on your wife/husband is much much worse

there is no commandment in Christianity to kill anyone for Christ's sake! if there is in Islam or smth, yes of course this is unacceptable by all means

O
n the other hand, science is just a method of finding the most accurate model of reality.  Science for instance finds that we can split atoms and create huge amounts of energy by doing so.  However, there is nothing about the scientific method that commands us to use this knowledge to create bombs and kill people.

very true!! there is nothing in Christianity that orders anyone to do anything bad either, the opposite, it is asking us to not bear a grudge and forgive as much as we can, what a great way to relief your mind from pointless hate and trouble

In other words, science only tells us what we can do.  We can then decide to do evil things.  Religion on the other hand (at least certain ones) actually tells us to do evil things.  

which is why I am against Islam spreading in Christian countries

and as a side note, the current generation has grown up being told that previous generations were being brainwashed to believe in Jesus, and now they think they are special and rebels by not doing so

this is laughable, cause they have grown up being fed with propaganda, see the good in everything except Christianity which they attack brutally but defend Muslims like there is no tomorrow, wtf is wrong with people

things have changed, the real rebels now are those who keep their faith and values against all the useless crap being forced onto us 24/7, see the good in everything and appreciate that we live in Jesus inspired countries above all

there is statistically increasing depression in young people, even though they have all they need to be happy, they have science and technology but it's never enough

"of course they can, but the reason you underestimate the impact of religion this much is first because you take Jesus teachings for granted/common sense and do not realize the impact they had/have in the world, and second because you as an individual do not need it (I was actually atheist until the age of 25!), religion is the strongest long-term mental help one can have - if done right of course - and scientific studies prove just that!! less religious West Europe countries have higher depression rates than more religious East Europe countries even though they are richer! "

Wow... religion is the longest term mental health you can have?  That's a pretty bold statement, and I'll need an actual source on that.  And differences in depression between Eastern and Western Europe would not cut it.  Too many other factors at play besides religiosity.  For one thing, how depression is diagnosed varies widely from country to country.  

of course!! there wouldn't be video games without scientific progress :P the point is that science does not disprove Christianity, therefore there is no damn reason to compare the two, and second, science can cure the body in most cases, but not the mind!! Christianity in its true and pure form can heal the soul

You're saying Christianity can heal the mind, which is another thing that would have to be proved.  I know of people who claim that religion helps them, and also know and know of plenty of people who feel their lives have been destroyed by religion.  As for the soul, there is no evidence any such thing exists. 

And, actually I think the scientific method when applied correctly disproves at the very least a literal interpretation of the bible.

did you know that there is a 40% increase in cheating related murders since the 90s? this is because as people get less religious, the 6th commandment that forbids cheating is violated!! more divorces, more kids growing up not in a normal family, more mental problems... this is just one example of how the collapse of Christianity will vanish values, and lead to a more 'anything goes' society of mental problems, no thanks :/

Source please?  I don't know if that's true.  And even if it is, how did you determine it has anything to do with religion?  Are these murders committed by non-religious people?  

Studies show in religious countries, that the religious tend to be more happy than non-religious people... yet this doesn't hold in non-religious countries.  Have you considered that being part of a majority is part of what makes religious people happier than others?  They are not subjected to the same social pressures, do not risk being outcast based on their beliefs, etc. 

And, their happiness may very well come at the expense of the non-religious. Slave owners were, I imagine, much happier than the slaves.  That doesn't mean slavery was beneficial to society as a whole.

And studies I've seen consistently show that life tends to be better in secular democracies than in Christian democracies.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/10-happiest-countries-in-the-world-are-among-the-least-religious/127465.htm

To be fair, the main thing that seems to make people happier in those countries is a strong social safety net.  But, it seems to show that it's quite possible to lose religion while increasing well being and happiness.  Also note that those countries tend to have far less violent crime than the US as well.  So society won't crumble without jesus.

very true!! there is nothing in Christianity that orders anyone to do anything bad either, the opposite, it is asking us to not bear a grudge and forgive as much as we can, what a great way to relief your mind from pointless hate and trouble

Well, no... Christianity orders you to kill...

Gay People:  "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Rebellious Sons: "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

Apostates: "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that . . . hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; . . .Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

Women who have had premarital sex (no matter if they were raped) ". . .If, however, this charge is true, that evidence of the young woman’s virginity was not found, then they shall bring the young woman out to the entrance of her father’s house and the men of her town shall stone her to death,"

Rape victims who don't yell loud enough: "If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city ."

Blasphemers: "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death."

That's all pretty terrible things that the bible commands people to do.  It seems you read the cliff notes versions.  There are way more than 10 commandments.

in which source material does Christianity support misogyny and slavery? this is very wrong... homosexuality issue is only 5% of the population, so it is a side effect, I need to do more research on it to be fair, but it is not mentioned in the ten commandments, therefore LGBT is not a big sin at all... cheating on your wife/husband is much much worse

Homosexuality is a pretty serious sin in Christianity since you're supposed to stone people to death for it. The same penalty as that for adultery btw.  Whether or not it's a direct or side effect has nothing to do with how many people it effects.  It's a direct effect because the bible tells people to do it.  

As for slavery, see Exodus 21 for rules on Jewish slaves.  Leviticus 25 for rules on foreign slaves.

For misogyny, Exodus 21 allows a father to sell his daughter as a slave, but he can't sell his son.  If a woman is not a virgin when she's married, she can be stoned to death.  A woman who is raped can be forced to marry her rapist, if her father agrees to it.  She has no say. A woman having her period is considered "unclean" and is supposed to be sequestered throughout.

 Then in the New Testament,

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
-1 Corinthians 14:34

“Let a woman learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to be silent”
-1 Timothy 2:11

which is why I am against Islam spreading in Christian countries

and as a side note, the current generation has grown up being told that previous generations were being brainwashed to believe in Jesus, and now they think they are special and rebels by not doing so

this is laughable, cause they have grown up being fed with propaganda, see the good in everything except Christianity which they attack brutally but defend Muslims like there is no tomorrow, wtf is wrong with people

things have changed, the real rebels now are those who keep their faith and values against all the useless crap being forced onto us 24/7, see the good in everything and appreciate that we live in Jesus inspired countries above all

there is statistically increasing depression in young people, even though they have all they need to be happy, they have science and technology but it's never enough

I'm against Islam spreading in any country, even Islamic ones.  I would generally agree that Islam, as it is practiced, is more dangerous than christianity globally... but since this topic wasn't asking why Mohammed sacrificed himself for me, it's entirely irrelevant.

As for whether or not people are brainwashed, yeah they are.  Because there is not a good reason to believe in Jesus.  If you have one, feel free to present it. 



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Because the human species is a sinful, destructive, engulfing cancer that was set loose upon the world to run havoc and ultimately destroy itself. So Jesus Christ, forgives your sins, whether you like it or not, and will accept you when you're ultimately are ready to take god into your heart.

Please understand that God is not a picture, crucifix, or a religion. God is in your deeds, your faith, you words, and your actions. Men created the church, their rules, their games. Men will distort and shape information to fit their agenda. God will forgive and wait for your salvation.



dark_gh0st_b0y said:

not always, but those who do it is very wrong, that I agree

Probably a few denominations that don't. But leveraging "hell" and the "devil" is terminology that is oft-used to scare individuals into submission.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

excuse me? then religion is faith into a higher deity...! what bias, do we take the side-effects of both or we don't? if you criticize religion used in the wrong way you must also criticize science used in the wrong way, or you have no argument-

there are substances we take in and forms of radiation that did not exist before that are proved to cause cancer, tons of them, otherwise cancer would be very rare

Don't really understand what you are saying with the first sentence.

And yes, I do criticize religion... And I will criticize Science when used incorrectly... Hence why we are having this very discussion right now.

No. Cancer has always existed, Science itself isn't the cause for cancer. Science is the explanation of the natural world, it's not radiation, it's not even the technology that emits various forms of radiation, it's an explanation, it's a method, it's a framework.

Our ability to identify Cancers have also increased... And the amount of "unknown" deaths have decreased.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

As for religious wars... Here is some reading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

only the Yoguslav was Christian - and very stupid lol - 8/9 are mostly related with Islam, did you know Christians are the most persuaded social group in non-Christian countries?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

the true trigger of the Crusades was fear from the Arab world building and huge army - inspired by the Quran - which had already attacked the East Roman Empire and captured huge land (all of present Turkey) so the Greek king at the time asked the Pope for help as the Christian world was under threat, and the Crusade army was formed, something critical never mentioned in present documentaries, not to feed fanaticism

You are trying to deflect here.
It's still all religion, the Quran... Torah... Bible... All based around the same middle-eastern abrahamic context, they are all cut from the same cloth, the fact it might be a different religion is irrelevant. Religion is religion.

You also have Lord Kony and the Lords Resistance Army in the modern era as well.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

False how? And what part of genesis does it refute? Exactly the opposite, science confirms what can be confirmed from the genesis!

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." - Genesis 1:1–2

That states the Earth formed before the Sun, when we know for a scientific fact it was the other way around.... This flatly contradicts the nebular hypothesis of stellar formation, in which planets form in the accretion disk created by a young star.

Genesis 1:6-8 also describes a "firmament" over the Earth, a solid dome... We know for a fact that is also false. - The Bibles Old Testament is pretty consistent in referencing and supporting the Babylonian model.

Genesis 7:11 - Noahs world-wide flood.
Here is the thing... I live on the oldest continent, with the oldest and most infertile soils in the world, Australia is the evidence that contradicts the Bibles claim of a flood in the last 6,000~ years. - The Aboriginal people of Australia literally have an entire civilization that has existed for allot longer than the Bible... Or a flood that supposedly wiped everything out.

I could keep going on. But I think you get the gist of how scientifically inaccurate the Bible is now. (Or will cling to the apologetic point of view and try and twist the literal meaning of the Bible.)

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

they are evidence for those who witnessed them!! the fact that they are individual and cannot be repeated any time as science experiments does not necessarily make them fake

No. Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is to be discarded.

Fact of the matter is... People claim all sorts of bullshit, like they got abducted by aliens, that they can't see the curvature of the Earth at altitude so the Earth is flat and more.

Not to mention, people lie all the time, often for personal gain... Take all those exorcism rubbish on TV/Youtube. Clearly an act.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

You can explain colour to a blind person, the imagination doesn't stop you know, colour doesn't have to be visual.

explain it how? people born blind cannot even understand black! it's just not there

You are only looking at it from a visual perspective rather than an imaginative one.

You can apply a colour to the feel, smell, temperature of something to a blind person, I have cared for blind people before when I was working in the health industry, it's actually not that hard.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

why even bother if you are not religious? breaking one of the ten commandments such as murder would never be forgiven just by an apologize, one would have to truly realize the pain caused to others, go through the pain they caused and truly regret their actions in order to be forgiven

So they would still be forgiven? Got'cha.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

other than the flat earth thing which the bible never mentions for god's sake, and the crusade which was an unavoidable war, the rest witches/LGBTQIABCDEFG... thing was a part of human brutality, Jesus basic message is love and forgiveness, not kill those you don't agree with, but of course you only know how Christianity was used by psychopaths and not its true impact on the world, and trust me, it is not random the world's most civilized countries are the Christian ones

50,000-125,000 years human existed and that proves the Christian faith impact, we moved forward starting 2,000 years ago when Jesus came to show us how it's done, and it started from Christian countries, when people started to help and love and support each other rather than looking only their interests, and that led to real progress

Listing "LGBTQIABCDEFG" just reinforces my point that the religious have a high disdain for the LGBTQI community and enjoys treating them like a joke... In short, Religion still hasn't progressed to accepting and treating everyone fairly.

Thank you for that. Couldn't have someone be anymore of a better example.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

carried out by muslims who read the Quran that says to kill non-believers, guess what will happen when Christianity falls, many people who need religion will become muslims instead :/

Bible's Old Testament says to kill non-believers.

No. That is a false narrative, just because we ditch Christianity, doesn't mean people will rush over to another rubbish religion like Islam, most western nations are becoming more Atheist as time goes on.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

Lastly, did you know that the Catholic church is world's biggest non-governmental donor? how the heck would it be better without it? LOL as it should be, love and compassion, Jesus main message

focus on the true message, criticize those who try to abuse it for personal gain, not the faith itself

You think religion is a requirement for that?

o_O.Q said:

You cannot separate the two and to think you could shows a complete lack of understanding of what science actual is

Science as I have stated is a process carried out by people

The end result of that process is therefore dependent on the philosophies of those people

Science is the explanation of something, it explains how something functions, how it forms and more, it's not the result or cause of something.

Perhaps it's not I, who lacks an understanding of what science actually is?

o_O.Q said:

There's a kind of ridiculous notion that i think you are laboring under that all irrationality in humans can be tied back to religion and if we could just destroy religion people could become much more rational and that is such a wrong proposition that its absolutely incredible that anyone could entertain it

Well. They definitely couldn't hide behind religion to justify their crimes or use religious indoctrination to "fool" people into terrorism.
The issue that terrorists have is they believe they will go to some sort of "heaven" for a certain action like suicide bombing, that is religious indoctrination being put forth to an evil deed... The annoying part is, you can't convince these individuals of anything else... Because Religion teaches their followers that people will try and force them to stray from their path of "righteousness" - It's toxic circular logic... Which is another logical fallacy.

o_O.Q said:

all of the philosophy on the left when it comes to how society should be governed is atheistic and largely determined by what leftists would claim is science, do you disagree with that?

for example, when leftists say we should eat the rich, they claim this idea is based in scientific models showing increasing inequality correct?

Say what? How does this have anything to do with your political ideologies? What you claim to be "left" or "right" wing is probably going to differ to mine anyway as it does all over the world.

JWeinCom said:

While religion can also lead to benefits (community, charity), these are benefits that we can have without religion.  Studies done on religiosity and quality of life indicate that we can abandon religion without losing very much, and doing so would rid of a lot harm.

Charity doesn't need religion. Part of the issue here is due to systemic government support and assistance that leans towards religious charities being given tax-breaks, financial support and more rather than atheistic ones.

In saying that, I refuse to support religious charities anyway... If anything the Australian bushfires have shown is that they are selfish and incompetent in assisting the public at large when society went to back them with millions of dollars worth of donations... As they only put a fraction of the donations back into help those affected.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-22/andrew-constance-attacks-red-cross-for-bushfire-donation-delays/11890538

The other issue is the bigotry... Salvation Army will never get my support due to their homophobic rhetoric years ago where an official stated that Gays deserve death.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/salvation-army-official-gays-deserve-death/321193/

Fuck religion.

EricHiggin said:

I'd like to see those cavemen's proofs. I can't imagine they would've suggested it to simply be "black magic".

Uh... What?

You might be a little confused or lost here, not sure.

EricHiggin said:

There never used to be scientific evidence that gravity existed either. Did gravity only come about more recently? Something was going on behind the scenes. Better figure out how to prove what it is? How long do we wait to prove something before we give up? Still waiting on undeniable proof of exactly how the universe came into being. Guess that means the universe doesn't exist, or is irrelevant?

The difference is... No one was proclaiming that gravity existed without a doubt before any evidence existed.

That is the difference between science and religion.

Someone rather took note of a specific set of cause and effect and went on to investigate using the scientific method.

It's a pretty basic concept and has proven to work time and again.

EricHiggin said:

Is Independence Day possible though? Seems like plenty of people aren't against other forms of intelligent life in the universe. If they do exist, could they be as powerful and hostile? Something we don't know for sure and can't say for certain as of now? Sounds sort of like...

Now you are delving into conspiracy theories... Then again, Religion can possibly fall into conspiracy theories as well.
Some individuals do tend to have a predisposition for conspiracy theories anyway I guess.

EricHiggin said:

If it's important to know that this entertainment is fictional, why isn't that made more clear to kids? Why do we allow kids to play fight based on these idea's and sometimes even hurt each other? Why do we sometimes use this 'insulting' fiction to teach kids a valuable lesson? Does what a youngster learn, mold who they eventually become?

That is the job of an Adult, parent, guardian, caregiver to teach and guide children through life.

EricHiggin said:

If you've spent much time around kids when their 'indoctrinating' parents aren't around, and they understand they can get away with more negative behavior, that's exactly what they do. You can literally watch their sympathy fade knowing they won't get in major trouble for not doing so. Now any good indoctrinated adult wouldn't let that go for long, but it doesn't change the fact that's what occurs as soon as you allow the rules to be bent or broken. Those rules are all part of the indoctrination process, and so why don't they happily and easily follow them? It's not natural, that's why.

I think you are trying to twist the narrative into something it's not.

EricHiggin said:

Based on that, climate change for example is a joke and shouldn't be taken seriously whatsoever by the public. Until science can undeniably know all factors and what they lead to, exactly, then it should simply be scientific doctrine. No green energy projects, no subsidies for those projects, no green taxes.

Climate change is a scientific fact, it's got the functional models, it's had the research, Climatic change has been happening for millions of years and will continue to change indefinitely... Even past the point where this planet can no longer support the current life.

Climate change deniers are science deniers... And to put bluntly. Are idiots.

What is up for debate however is the extent of human-influenced climate change... And that is an entirely different discussion.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

two different things that can co-exist, “Does God exist?” science cannot answer the question, nor can it teach us what to do with the physical well-being it provides, Jesus told us how to live - even though it is taken for-granted today, to the level that he is brutally attacked like he is the bad guy

Science cannot answer the question on whether the flying spaghetti monster exists, does that mean it actually exists?

What about the Tooth Fairy? Easter Bunny? Mudkips? Giant Enemy Crabs? Science can't prove they exist either, does that mean they actually exist?

This is why the burden of proof is such a requirement... Because it allows us to throw out all bullshit claims... But the religious wish to be the exception to the rule.

DraconianAC said:

Because the human species is a sinful, destructive, engulfing cancer that was set loose upon the world to run havoc and ultimately destroy itself. So Jesus Christ, forgives your sins, whether you like it or not, and will accept you when you're ultimately are ready to take god into your heart.

Please understand that God is not a picture, crucifix, or a religion. God is in your deeds, your faith, you words, and your actions. Men created the church, their rules, their games. Men will distort and shape information to fit their agenda. God will forgive and wait for your salvation.

I don't think we should be in the business of forgiving those who do detestable things and giving them a pass to ever-lasting luxury while a first responder who has spent years saving lives gets eternal damnation.

That's not good, that's not loving, that's not fair.










--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

not always, but those who do it is very wrong, that I agree

Probably a few denominations that don't. But leveraging "hell" and the "devil" is terminology that is oft-used to scare individuals into submission.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

excuse me? then religion is faith into a higher deity...! what bias, do we take the side-effects of both or we don't? if you criticize religion used in the wrong way you must also criticize science used in the wrong way, or you have no argument-

there are substances we take in and forms of radiation that did not exist before that are proved to cause cancer, tons of them, otherwise cancer would be very rare

Don't really understand what you are saying with the first sentence.

And yes, I do criticize religion... And I will criticize Science when used incorrectly... Hence why we are having this very discussion right now.

No. Cancer has always existed, Science itself isn't the cause for cancer. Science is the explanation of the natural world, it's not radiation, it's not even the technology that emits various forms of radiation, it's an explanation, it's a method, it's a framework.

Our ability to identify Cancers have also increased... And the amount of "unknown" deaths have decreased.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

As for religious wars... Here is some reading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

only the Yoguslav was Christian - and very stupid lol - 8/9 are mostly related with Islam, did you know Christians are the most persuaded social group in non-Christian countries?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

the true trigger of the Crusades was fear from the Arab world building and huge army - inspired by the Quran - which had already attacked the East Roman Empire and captured huge land (all of present Turkey) so the Greek king at the time asked the Pope for help as the Christian world was under threat, and the Crusade army was formed, something critical never mentioned in present documentaries, not to feed fanaticism

You are trying to deflect here.
It's still all religion, the Quran... Torah... Bible... All based around the same middle-eastern abrahamic context, they are all cut from the same cloth, the fact it might be a different religion is irrelevant. Religion is religion.

You also have Lord Kony and the Lords Resistance Army in the modern era as well.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

False how? And what part of genesis does it refute? Exactly the opposite, science confirms what can be confirmed from the genesis!

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." - Genesis 1:1–2

That states the Earth formed before the Sun, when we know for a scientific fact it was the other way around.... This flatly contradicts the nebular hypothesis of stellar formation, in which planets form in the accretion disk created by a young star.

Genesis 1:6-8 also describes a "firmament" over the Earth, a solid dome... We know for a fact that is also false. - The Bibles Old Testament is pretty consistent in referencing and supporting the Babylonian model.

Genesis 7:11 - Noahs world-wide flood.
Here is the thing... I live on the oldest continent, with the oldest and most infertile soils in the world, Australia is the evidence that contradicts the Bibles claim of a flood in the last 6,000~ years. - The Aboriginal people of Australia literally have an entire civilization that has existed for allot longer than the Bible... Or a flood that supposedly wiped everything out.

I could keep going on. But I think you get the gist of how scientifically inaccurate the Bible is now. (Or will cling to the apologetic point of view and try and twist the literal meaning of the Bible.)

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

they are evidence for those who witnessed them!! the fact that they are individual and cannot be repeated any time as science experiments does not necessarily make them fake

No. Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is to be discarded.

Fact of the matter is... People claim all sorts of bullshit, like they got abducted by aliens, that they can't see the curvature of the Earth at altitude so the Earth is flat and more.

Not to mention, people lie all the time, often for personal gain... Take all those exorcism rubbish on TV/Youtube. Clearly an act.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

You can explain colour to a blind person, the imagination doesn't stop you know, colour doesn't have to be visual.

explain it how? people born blind cannot even understand black! it's just not there

You are only looking at it from a visual perspective rather than an imaginative one.

You can apply a colour to the feel, smell, temperature of something to a blind person, I have cared for blind people before when I was working in the health industry, it's actually not that hard.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

why even bother if you are not religious? breaking one of the ten commandments such as murder would never be forgiven just by an apologize, one would have to truly realize the pain caused to others, go through the pain they caused and truly regret their actions in order to be forgiven

So they would still be forgiven? Got'cha.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

other than the flat earth thing which the bible never mentions for god's sake, and the crusade which was an unavoidable war, the rest witches/LGBTQIABCDEFG... thing was a part of human brutality, Jesus basic message is love and forgiveness, not kill those you don't agree with, but of course you only know how Christianity was used by psychopaths and not its true impact on the world, and trust me, it is not random the world's most civilized countries are the Christian ones

50,000-125,000 years human existed and that proves the Christian faith impact, we moved forward starting 2,000 years ago when Jesus came to show us how it's done, and it started from Christian countries, when people started to help and love and support each other rather than looking only their interests, and that led to real progress

Listing "LGBTQIABCDEFG" just reinforces my point that the religious have a high disdain for the LGBTQI community and enjoys treating them like a joke... In short, Religion still hasn't progressed to accepting and treating everyone fairly.

Thank you for that. Couldn't have someone be anymore of a better example.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

carried out by muslims who read the Quran that says to kill non-believers, guess what will happen when Christianity falls, many people who need religion will become muslims instead :/

Bible's Old Testament says to kill non-believers.

No. That is a false narrative, just because we ditch Christianity, doesn't mean people will rush over to another rubbish religion like Islam, most western nations are becoming more Atheist as time goes on.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

Lastly, did you know that the Catholic church is world's biggest non-governmental donor? how the heck would it be better without it? LOL as it should be, love and compassion, Jesus main message

focus on the true message, criticize those who try to abuse it for personal gain, not the faith itself

You think religion is a requirement for that?

o_O.Q said:

You cannot separate the two and to think you could shows a complete lack of understanding of what science actual is

Science as I have stated is a process carried out by people

The end result of that process is therefore dependent on the philosophies of those people

Science is the explanation of something, it explains how something functions, how it forms and more, it's not the result or cause of something.

Perhaps it's not I, who lacks an understanding of what science actually is?

o_O.Q said:

There's a kind of ridiculous notion that i think you are laboring under that all irrationality in humans can be tied back to religion and if we could just destroy religion people could become much more rational and that is such a wrong proposition that its absolutely incredible that anyone could entertain it

Well. They definitely couldn't hide behind religion to justify their crimes or use religious indoctrination to "fool" people into terrorism.
The issue that terrorists have is they believe they will go to some sort of "heaven" for a certain action like suicide bombing, that is religious indoctrination being put forth to an evil deed... The annoying part is, you can't convince these individuals of anything else... Because Religion teaches their followers that people will try and force them to stray from their path of "righteousness" - It's toxic circular logic... Which is another logical fallacy.

o_O.Q said:

all of the philosophy on the left when it comes to how society should be governed is atheistic and largely determined by what leftists would claim is science, do you disagree with that?

for example, when leftists say we should eat the rich, they claim this idea is based in scientific models showing increasing inequality correct?

Say what? How does this have anything to do with your political ideologies? What you claim to be "left" or "right" wing is probably going to differ to mine anyway as it does all over the world.

JWeinCom said:

While religion can also lead to benefits (community, charity), these are benefits that we can have without religion.  Studies done on religiosity and quality of life indicate that we can abandon religion without losing very much, and doing so would rid of a lot harm.

Charity doesn't need religion. Part of the issue here is due to systemic government support and assistance that leans towards religious charities being given tax-breaks, financial support and more rather than atheistic ones.

In saying that, I refuse to support religious charities anyway... If anything the Australian bushfires have shown is that they are selfish and incompetent in assisting the public at large when society went to back them with millions of dollars worth of donations... As they only put a fraction of the donations back into help those affected.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-22/andrew-constance-attacks-red-cross-for-bushfire-donation-delays/11890538

The other issue is the bigotry... Salvation Army will never get my support due to their homophobic rhetoric years ago where an official stated that Gays deserve death.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/salvation-army-official-gays-deserve-death/321193/

Fuck religion.

EricHiggin said:

I'd like to see those cavemen's proofs. I can't imagine they would've suggested it to simply be "black magic".

Uh... What?

You might be a little confused or lost here, not sure.

EricHiggin said:

There never used to be scientific evidence that gravity existed either. Did gravity only come about more recently? Something was going on behind the scenes. Better figure out how to prove what it is? How long do we wait to prove something before we give up? Still waiting on undeniable proof of exactly how the universe came into being. Guess that means the universe doesn't exist, or is irrelevant?

The difference is... No one was proclaiming that gravity existed without a doubt before any evidence existed.

That is the difference between science and religion.

Someone rather took note of a specific set of cause and effect and went on to investigate using the scientific method.

It's a pretty basic concept and has proven to work time and again.

EricHiggin said:

Is Independence Day possible though? Seems like plenty of people aren't against other forms of intelligent life in the universe. If they do exist, could they be as powerful and hostile? Something we don't know for sure and can't say for certain as of now? Sounds sort of like...

Now you are delving into conspiracy theories... Then again, Religion can possibly fall into conspiracy theories as well.
Some individuals do tend to have a predisposition for conspiracy theories anyway I guess.

EricHiggin said:

If it's important to know that this entertainment is fictional, why isn't that made more clear to kids? Why do we allow kids to play fight based on these idea's and sometimes even hurt each other? Why do we sometimes use this 'insulting' fiction to teach kids a valuable lesson? Does what a youngster learn, mold who they eventually become?

That is the job of an Adult, parent, guardian, caregiver to teach and guide children through life.

EricHiggin said:

If you've spent much time around kids when their 'indoctrinating' parents aren't around, and they understand they can get away with more negative behavior, that's exactly what they do. You can literally watch their sympathy fade knowing they won't get in major trouble for not doing so. Now any good indoctrinated adult wouldn't let that go for long, but it doesn't change the fact that's what occurs as soon as you allow the rules to be bent or broken. Those rules are all part of the indoctrination process, and so why don't they happily and easily follow them? It's not natural, that's why.

I think you are trying to twist the narrative into something it's not.

EricHiggin said:

Based on that, climate change for example is a joke and shouldn't be taken seriously whatsoever by the public. Until science can undeniably know all factors and what they lead to, exactly, then it should simply be scientific doctrine. No green energy projects, no subsidies for those projects, no green taxes.

Climate change is a scientific fact, it's got the functional models, it's had the research, Climatic change has been happening for millions of years and will continue to change indefinitely... Even past the point where this planet can no longer support the current life.

Climate change deniers are science deniers... And to put bluntly. Are idiots.

What is up for debate however is the extent of human-influenced climate change... And that is an entirely different discussion.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

two different things that can co-exist, “Does God exist?” science cannot answer the question, nor can it teach us what to do with the physical well-being it provides, Jesus told us how to live - even though it is taken for-granted today, to the level that he is brutally attacked like he is the bad guy

Science cannot answer the question on whether the flying spaghetti monster exists, does that mean it actually exists?

What about the Tooth Fairy? Easter Bunny? Mudkips? Giant Enemy Crabs? Science can't prove they exist either, does that mean they actually exist?

This is why the burden of proof is such a requirement... Because it allows us to throw out all bullshit claims... But the religious wish to be the exception to the rule.

DraconianAC said:

Because the human species is a sinful, destructive, engulfing cancer that was set loose upon the world to run havoc and ultimately destroy itself. So Jesus Christ, forgives your sins, whether you like it or not, and will accept you when you're ultimately are ready to take god into your heart.

Please understand that God is not a picture, crucifix, or a religion. God is in your deeds, your faith, you words, and your actions. Men created the church, their rules, their games. Men will distort and shape information to fit their agenda. God will forgive and wait for your salvation.

I don't think we should be in the business of forgiving those who do detestable things and giving them a pass to ever-lasting luxury while a first responder who has spent years saving lives gets eternal damnation.

That's not good, that's not loving, that's not fair.








"The issue that terrorists have is they believe they will go to some sort of "heaven" for a certain action like suicide bombing"

sure... because the most murderous regimes in the 20th century, leading to the deaths of millions of people weren't atheistic... ok

"The annoying part is, you can't convince these individuals of anything else... Because Religion teaches their followers that people will try and force them to stray from their path of "righteousness" - It's toxic circular logic... Which is another logical fallacy."

Your conception of what people are in general and how they reason is startlingly shallow

I've seen just as much stupidity and circular logic among people who are atheists because it is a consequence of the human condition, not a consequence of religion

" What you claim to be "left" or "right" wing is probably going to differ to mine anyway"

Leftist philosophy is extremely easy to understand, its almost entirely about flattening hierarchies and promoting "equality"

the point I'm making is that leftists are arguing for policies inspired by this philosophy and substantiating their claims not with religion but with what they would claim to be science, how have you not come to observe that?



Does anyone find it ironic that we are literally living in an era where some people are claiming that it is impossible to distinguish what a male human is from what a female human is, but it is the religious people that are irrational?
I mean I could totally believe that Moses parted a sea with a stick before I believe someone in good faith is trying to argue that we cannot distinguish males from females

❌ BAN: Spamming/Trolling ~ Ryuu

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 01 April 2020

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o_O.Q said:
Does anyone find it ironic that we are literally living in an era where some people are claiming that it is impossible to distinguish what a male human is from what a female human is, but it is the religious people that are irrational?
I mean I could totally believe that Moses parted a sea with a stick before I believe someone in good faith is trying to argue that we cannot distinguish males from females

I'd be curious to see what actual social scientists say on this subject. It sounds like you're conflating sex and gender because I haven't heard anyone make the exact claim you're stating. Could have missed it though. What I'd really like is scholarly work stating this rather than some dingus on twitter or reddit but I'll take what you can give me I suppose. 



...

Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

I'd like to see those cavemen's proofs. I can't imagine they would've suggested it to simply be "black magic".

Uh... What?

You might be a little confused or lost here, not sure.

EricHiggin said:

There never used to be scientific evidence that gravity existed either. Did gravity only come about more recently? Something was going on behind the scenes. Better figure out how to prove what it is? How long do we wait to prove something before we give up? Still waiting on undeniable proof of exactly how the universe came into being. Guess that means the universe doesn't exist, or is irrelevant?

The difference is... No one was proclaiming that gravity existed without a doubt before any evidence existed.

That is the difference between science and religion.

Someone rather took note of a specific set of cause and effect and went on to investigate using the scientific method.

It's a pretty basic concept and has proven to work time and again.

EricHiggin said:

Is Independence Day possible though? Seems like plenty of people aren't against other forms of intelligent life in the universe. If they do exist, could they be as powerful and hostile? Something we don't know for sure and can't say for certain as of now? Sounds sort of like...

Now you are delving into conspiracy theories... Then again, Religion can possibly fall into conspiracy theories as well.
Some individuals do tend to have a predisposition for conspiracy theories anyway I guess.

EricHiggin said:

If it's important to know that this entertainment is fictional, why isn't that made more clear to kids? Why do we allow kids to play fight based on these idea's and sometimes even hurt each other? Why do we sometimes use this 'insulting' fiction to teach kids a valuable lesson? Does what a youngster learn, mold who they eventually become?

That is the job of an Adult, parent, guardian, caregiver to teach and guide children through life.

EricHiggin said:

If you've spent much time around kids when their 'indoctrinating' parents aren't around, and they understand they can get away with more negative behavior, that's exactly what they do. You can literally watch their sympathy fade knowing they won't get in major trouble for not doing so. Now any good indoctrinated adult wouldn't let that go for long, but it doesn't change the fact that's what occurs as soon as you allow the rules to be bent or broken. Those rules are all part of the indoctrination process, and so why don't they happily and easily follow them? It's not natural, that's why.

I think you are trying to twist the narrative into something it's not.

EricHiggin said:

Based on that, climate change for example is a joke and shouldn't be taken seriously whatsoever by the public. Until science can undeniably know all factors and what they lead to, exactly, then it should simply be scientific doctrine. No green energy projects, no subsidies for those projects, no green taxes.

Climate change is a scientific fact, it's got the functional models, it's had the research, Climatic change has been happening for millions of years and will continue to change indefinitely... Even past the point where this planet can no longer support the current life.

Climate change deniers are science deniers... And to put bluntly. Are idiots.

What is up for debate however is the extent of human-influenced climate change... And that is an entirely different discussion.

No, but you can bet those cavemen were.

---

So people noticed something, something they couldn't explain, and went looking for answers? Just because it was easier to understand and prove, doesn't mean one is worthy and the other is not. If that's the case, the universe isn't worth explaining, because we didn't used to know there was a universe, and we still haven't undeniably explained it yet. To imply that things we've proven only have value, goes directly against scientific questioning and research itself.

---

Science probing for the ingredients to life or life itself on other planets? Billions being wasted on conspiracy theories? Why isn't this headline news?

---

Teaching and guiding can't be indoctrinating? Maybe only when it's the closest caregiver as they can't be indoctrinated themselves?

---

Just pointing out consistent observations. Maybe my presence simply brings out the worst in people, who knows?

---

Now I didn't specify man made, but pointing out the human dependent energy reliance and tax connection, I don't see the disconnect or confusion.

"I think you are trying to twist the narrative into something it's not."



I don't know why he would sacrifice himself for me now, tbh. No idea at all but I repect him for it.



 

China Numba wan!!

Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:
Does anyone find it ironic that we are literally living in an era where some people are claiming that it is impossible to distinguish what a male human is from what a female human is, but it is the religious people that are irrational?
I mean I could totally believe that Moses parted a sea with a stick before I believe someone in good faith is trying to argue that we cannot distinguish males from females

I'd be curious to see what actual social scientists say on this subject. It sounds like you're conflating sex and gender because I haven't heard anyone make the exact claim you're stating. Could have missed it though. What I'd really like is scholarly work stating this rather than some dingus on twitter or reddit but I'll take what you can give me I suppose. 

"actual social scientists"

You're bringing up social science with regards to a claim about biology and you think I'm the one that's confused?

No I'm talking specifically about MALE and FEMALE, it has now become expected within leftist spaces to state that females can have penises and males can have vaginas and I've had that same conversation even on this very website and I'm pretty sure that you agreed with that proposition.

The thing is this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the stupidity I've seen festering in ATHEISTIC leftist spaces, you have claims like:

Competition and hierarchy are entirely social constructs and if we just dismantled western society then everyone would only cooperate

Working for someone is entirely exploitative and if we just dismantled western civilisation and took away all rights to private property exploitation would end( the same morons never realise though that this would have to be done by the state which would be for more oppressive and exploitative )

All behavior is a social construct, the way we behave is entirely determined by the culture we live in

and on and on and on, all of this is spurned on by this idiotic leftist idea that absolute equality does not exist because of the current social structures we have, so women have unequal pay not because they have children but because of patriarchy or society is heteronormative not because a population obvious has to be to stop it from disappearing, but because civilisation is created to oppress lgbt people

the levels of irrationality I've seen in these spaces has to me surpassed anything I've seen in religious spaces, which to me shows quite clearly that the problem has never been religion, it has always been people, which is why we came up with religion however flawed it may be to regulate our behavior

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 30 March 2020

o_O.Q said:
Torillian said:

I'd be curious to see what actual social scientists say on this subject. It sounds like you're conflating sex and gender because I haven't heard anyone make the exact claim you're stating. Could have missed it though. What I'd really like is scholarly work stating this rather than some dingus on twitter or reddit but I'll take what you can give me I suppose. 

"actual social scientists"

You're bringing up social science with regards to a claim about biology and you think I'm the one that's confused?

No I'm talking specifically about MALE and FEMALE, it has now become expected within leftist spaces to state that females can have penises and males can have vaginas and I've had that same conversation even on this very website and I'm pretty sure that you agreed with that proposition.

The thing is this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the stupidity I've seen festering in ATHEISTIC leftist spaces, you have claims like:

Competition and hierarchy are entirely social constructs and if we just dismantled western society then everyone would only cooperate

Working for someone is entirely exploitative and if we just dismantled western civilisation and took away all rights to private property exploitation would end( the same morons never realise though that this would have to be done by the state which would be for more oppressive and exploitative )

All behavior is a social construct, the way we behave is entirely determined by the culture we live in

and on and on and on, all of this is spurned on by this idiotic leftist idea that absolute equality does not exist because of the current social structures we have, so women have unequal pay not because they have children but because of patriarchy or society is heteronormative not because a population obvious has to be to stop it from disappearing, but because civilisation is created to oppress lgbt people

the levels of irrationality I've seen in these spaces has to me surpassed anything I've seen in religious spaces, which to me shows quite clearly that the problem has never been religion, it has always been people, which is why we came up with religion however flawed it may be to regulate our behavior

The statement I'm aware of is that men can have vaginas and women can have penises. This is, again, a statement about the difference between gender and sex. This is why I think social scientists are the ones I would consider experts on the subject. 

The idea that this is more befuddling than Moses parting the red sea because you don't agree with new definitions for words and context is ridiculous. 

edit: I've ignored your statements on socialism on purpose, that's outside of the discussion I am interested in. 



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