Forums - General Discussion - Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

If the all things you require in life, just so happen to be the things you love to do, and you can get them without going through anyone else, then lucky you. That in today's world however, is about as likely as, I dunno, God existing, some might say.

If heaven or hell is the path after life, then is it really a reward, or just the next required step? What about those who would love to go to heaven?

What is that?

Please elaborate.



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Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
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EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

What is that?

Please elaborate.

I'm asking you to do exactly that.  I bolded it, underlined it and italicized it. 



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

Please elaborate.

I'm asking you to do exactly that.  I bolded it, underlined it and italicized it. 

"A place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering."



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

I'm asking you to do exactly that.  I bolded it, underlined it and italicized it. 

"A place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering."

Like minor evil and suffering?  Are we talking having to eat leftovers for eternity or watching reruns of 60's sitcoms?   Or more dire?  Like feeling your skin being corroded by acid for all of eternity?



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

"A place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering."

Like minor evil and suffering?  Are we talking having to eat leftovers for eternity or watching reruns of 60's sitcoms?   Or more dire?  Like feeling your skin being corroded by acid for all of eternity?

Fire and brimstone. Something like that.

Depends on what you consider minor, and evil.

I guess God could have made it so everyone automatically goes to heaven, but then your free will is being taken away. Which would people rather keep? If there are humans who don't believe in or even hate/despise God, would it be right to automatically force them to go to heaven, where God is, for eternity?



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

Around the Network
EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

Like minor evil and suffering?  Are we talking having to eat leftovers for eternity or watching reruns of 60's sitcoms?   Or more dire?  Like feeling your skin being corroded by acid for all of eternity?

Fire and brimstone. Something like that.

Depends on what you consider minor, and evil.

I guess God could have made it so everyone automatically goes to heaven, but then your free will is being taken away. Which would people rather keep? If there are humans who don't believe in or even hate/despise God, would it be right to automatically force them to go to heaven, where God is, for eternity?

Fire and brimstone.  According to what?



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

EricHiggin said:

-I think we've both made points that both science and religion can do good and evil. So if science should exist based on it's positives, so should religion, based on it's positives. You pointed out earlier how you think it's good that science makes mistakes and get's things wrong so that it can learn from them and better itself. If religion has changed over time, for the better, than why doesn't that same type of thinking apply to it as well? Is religion allowed to screw up, learn, and move forward, or just science?

The difference between science and religion is that it doesn't care about yours or anyones feelings.
Science isn't "Good or Evil" it is an explanation of the natural world.

For example... Science unlike religion...

* Is not telling you to kill Homosexuals.
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” - Leviticus 20:13 NAB

* Kill children.
"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." - Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT

* Again... More killing of Children.
“For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.” - Leviticus 20:9

* Your God demanding child sacrifices.
"Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it." - Judges 11:30-40

* Forcing men to marry their Rape victims.
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB

* Death to rape victim.
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife." - Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB

* Supports Slavery.
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. " - Ephesians 6:5 NLT

And before you claim that some of that is "old testament". - The new Testament also has horrific shit in it also.

Not to mention... The Old Testament is still binding which is supported by many Christian denominations and literal interpretations and the Bible itself.
I.E.
* Old Testament is to be obeyed until the end of human existence itself. Jesus said so.
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” - Matthew 5:18-19 RSV

* Old Testament laws are binding forever.
“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” - Luke 16:17 NAB

I could list more.

Science doesn't have any of this bullshit.
If science is used for "bad deeds" it's not the fault of science, because science has never told someone they need to marry their rape victim.


EricHiggin said:

-You keep asking for evidence, yet won't accept it in a religious form, so does that mean the scientific method is the ONE and ONLY allowable method? Must everything conform to science? I don't believe the 'biblical method' mentions that it requires science to prove itself. Therefore, if you want scientific proof, science will have to come up with it.

I am happy to accept evidence in "religious form". - Whatever that means. But if it doesn't conform to the scientific method, it will be discarded.

Science doesn't need to prove itself, because science is built on evidence and is the explanation of the natural world.

Remember, Science flies us to other planets... Religion flies us into buildings.

EricHiggin said:

-You can make whatever claims you want, but no one is going to automatically accept it. They may, they may not. Depends on what method they use to ascertain the truth depending on the topic. Even if you're certain beyond a doubt that you've proved it, they still may not accept it. Free will can be frustrating at times.

I am not debating to change your mind and accept anything, I am debating for those who are sitting on the fence and hopefully see the logic in the arguments put forth.

And false, if you have evidence that your particular exists, then I will believe it... But considering Christianity has had over 6,000+ years and haven't done so... I don't hold much hope in a random forum dweller on the internet to be able to come up with anything legitimate.

And answer me this, how do you know you have picked the right God instead of one of the other thousands littered all through history who claims the exact same thing?

EricHiggin said:

-I'm not trying to justify suicide. The opposite if anything. I'm pointing out that you don't have to be mentally ill to want to take your own life, or someone else's. If you can kill someone else out of fear, or sympathy, etc, there is no reason why you couldn't do it to yourself without mental illness. People don't only laugh when they are happy do they? If people laugh at "sick" jokes, does that mean they must be mentally ill? If someone chooses to do something, and you intervene, then you've interfered with their free will. God doesn't want people offing themselves, and you agreed with that, even though you also believe in free will.

If you try to commit suicide, then you are going against the human condition. - We have pain receptors, we have hormones which instill emotions such as fear in order to avoid such scenarios from occurring.

EricHiggin said:

-You're the one who asked about the Tooth Fairy initially, not me. Since you're taking the side of science, I would think it's up to you to prove it then. Isn't it?

I have already explained the logic behind this.

The burden of proof lays upon the claimant. If I claimed the tooth fairy exists, then I need to prove it. But I haven't.

You have claimed God exists... So you need to prove it, not me.

EricHiggin said:

-If you're upset about the P.M. sending wishes and prayers, and you're not a fan of religion, then it would be likely you're a little biased. I don't necessarily believe everything I've mentioned, but that doesn't change the fact that devout religious people do. Being somewhat religious, that does also likely mean I am also partially biased. Though, I'm not against science, within reason.

Upset? No. Disgusted is what I am.

Sending "thoughts and prayers" is just feel-good bullshit so the Prime Minister could feel good about himself whilst he went on holiday and had the time of his life whilst property, life and the environment was destroyed in a national emergency.

Thoughts and Prayers in short... Does fuck all.

Do you know who saved lives? People like myself who had the motivation to get out there, give up months of our lives, potentially putting our own lives at risk and assisting our communities in times of need.
I did that. Not thoughts and prayers. - Religion is an insult to the hard-work I did.
Sending thoughts and prayers is an insult to any free-thinking individual who is struggling and the hard work us firefighters put forth for weeks/months on end.

Religion is a waste of time and space in any modern society.

EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

I don't think you understand what intrinsic and extrinsic motivational factors are. I probably shouldn't be expecting an understating of psychology form a theist.

If the all things you require in life, just so happen to be the things you love to do, and you can get them without going through anyone else, then lucky you. That in today's world however, is about as likely as, I dunno, God existing, some might say.

If heaven or hell is the path after life, then is it really a reward, or just the next required step? What about those who would love to go to heaven?

If their hypothetical God was all loving... They wouldn't need to threaten billions of people with eternal torture to gain peoples fake-love and acceptance.
It's using the power of fear and uncertainty.

EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

Like minor evil and suffering?  Are we talking having to eat leftovers for eternity or watching reruns of 60's sitcoms?   Or more dire?  Like feeling your skin being corroded by acid for all of eternity?

Fire and brimstone. Something like that.

Depends on what you consider minor, and evil.

I guess God could have made it so everyone automatically goes to heaven, but then your free will is being taken away. Which would people rather keep? If there are humans who don't believe in or even hate/despise God, would it be right to automatically force them to go to heaven, where God is, for eternity?

Hell hasn't been proven to exist anymore than heaven or God itself.. So there is that nugget of comfort.



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Pemalite said:


Thoughts and Prayers in short... Does fuck all.

Do you know who saved lives? People like myself who had the motivation to get out there, give up months of our lives, potentially putting our own lives at risk and assisting our communities in times of need.
I did that. Not thoughts and prayers. - Religion is an insult to the hard-work I did.
Sending thoughts and prayers is an insult to any free-thinking individual who is struggling and the hard work us firefighters put forth for weeks/months on end.

Waiting for the "God worked his will through you" bit next.  Wholly diminishing your efforts, your sacrifice, your bravery, etc..

Also goes against the whole free will thing if God basically used you as a meat puppet to save someone else.

Last edited by SpokenTruth - on 26 March 2020

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

"A place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering."

Like minor evil and suffering?  Are we talking having to eat leftovers for eternity or watching reruns of 60's sitcoms?   Or more dire?  Like feeling your skin being corroded by acid for all of eternity?

Everyone gets their own personal suffering based on fears and what you did wrongly while being alive.

Fear of dogs might result in being eaten alive by dogs again and again,such twisted things.



Immersiveunreality said:
SpokenTruth said:

Like minor evil and suffering?  Are we talking having to eat leftovers for eternity or watching reruns of 60's sitcoms?   Or more dire?  Like feeling your skin being corroded by acid for all of eternity?

Everyone gets their own personal suffering based on fears and what you did wrongly while being alive.

Fear of dogs might result in being eaten alive by dogs again and again,such twisted things.

What is this idea derived from? 



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."